Vianna's enneagram?

[Vianna]

Is there anyone who really knows enneagram? I've been having troubles with my tritype and stacking. I think my core type is 4, but I am open to more suggestions, when it comes to wing I relate to both 3 and 5. I am not sure about my head fix, I relate to 6,7 and 5 equally. When it comes to gut, I think I am 9, but I could be wrong.

Anyone willing to help please?

 

[charlatan]

I can help (if we can discuss it out). For starters, why not say how you relate to whichever types you relate to and we can try to find the best pattern.

 

[BrokenDaniel]

As a 5 winger i sometimes can relate to some 3 things that are usually described. Like being somewhat driven in my pursuits, and having somewhat of a need to stand out for my achievements, also i admit that i like attention from others. I have a friend who's a 4w3, we're very similar, but differ on how much and well we deal with the mundane, which i'm seamlesly obvlivious of whereas he's able to cope with it very effectively. The 5 wing can also add to some otherwordlyness, like an unwillingness to engage with any kind of person or thing that doesn't resonate deeply internally with what they truly think they are.

Instincts are easy. You don't even think about it.
Sexual links to attracting a mate, being aware of mating signals, while also actively giving them. Think about Mating rituals in the animal kingdom mainly.
Social Being aware of the collective, that we're interconected, the network, working towards something/entity bigger than oneself. Also look at animals and how they structure withing themselves to survive, assist and get food. Ants, wolfs, monkeys usually display that.
Preservation is mainly being aware of resources, surroundings, comfort too, security, work, career to an extent, etc...

The first is an area of neurosis, and unability to compromise it for something else, a strenght that's actually a weakness. The last one is the area of unawareness, your blindspot. Like by example, as a sexual first, i have history of being neurotically fixated with my loved (girlfriend) ones, to the point of neglecting everything else, also a sense of competition that probably has caused more bitterness than improvements, and confusion around boundaries with the sexual/relationship/intimacy area.
Social is my weakest, so i'm usually unaware of social cues, networking and stuff. I barely use facebook, mainly to chat and keep up with a few friends, and i usually forget about returning messages/whatsapp on my iphone, also this is the only place online were i come to chat and share with others stuff aside from FB somewhat.

I don't use/care about tritype.

Hope it helps.

 

[charlatan]

At its core, enneagram 5 is about a certain hesitation for involvement, in how it fits in with the head triad (which in general is all about inhibition, anxiety, and certainty/feeling able to know), due to a sense of uncertainty and lack of footing on how to deal with things they my get involved in, but perhaps rather than through emotional insecurity as E6s are prone to be, where the unrelatedness to things is as contributing to the hesitation as is the actual lack of sense of knowing. E5 often is a very IT orientation, though it's portrayed in Riso's sources as more INT than just IT, but I'd say at least some genuine 5w6 types are more IST.
Enneagram 4w5 is perhaps the most estranged combination of all from involvement, along with 5w4, in the sense of both 4 and 5 having a sense of not belonging, but with 4 being a feeling type, there being a greater sense of mourning that sense (not all 4s mourn it in a weepy fashion at all, in fact some take the counter-stance to this exactly, but deep down still have that complex). ADDED: just to clarify, this doesn't mean the 4s necessarily wish they were "normal" -- they are just feeling types, so they do wish deeply to know what the significance of their deeper self is in relation to being human, typically.

4 at its core is a feeling traid type, where the dominant concern is "what do I amount to as a human being"? There are more feelings-intensive ways to answer this vs less reflective and more action-oriented ways, where some 3s take the latter approach and wish the spotlight more than they seek their significance through reflection, introspective feeling, and so on.

It's of course worth noting simply introspecting towards one's feelings isn't only 4, many can do that, but 4s almost always do it intensely.

The real core of E4 is best understood by getting the INF-orientation...classically there's this idea that Fs care more for others than Ts, but while this is true on average, no combination produces a greater inwardness than IN, and an intense IN type with F tends to explore its human concerns more reflectively than always through nurturing or caring actively for others.

4s commonly have a sense that something is "missing" which tends to fit in with the abstract idealism often attributed to NFs. E5s neighbor E4 in the sense that they often also feel something is "missing" in a different sense -- less in the sense of idealism and abstract feeling, and more in terms of T-ish concerns such as lacking the competence of handling reality in a more involved way.

 

[charlatan]

On 5, 6, 7: the core of 7 in relation to the head triad theme I mention above is that they are, somewhat similar to 5, unsure of their involvements with things (which I think is a good interpretation of the 5/7 connection), where the 7's issue tends to be the complement to the 5's -- a craving distraction from oneself rather than a sinking into oneself.
E7s fundamentally sort of fear the vanishing of the abundance they tend to surround themselves with, have an intense aversion to pain, and so on.

This is the interface of the head triad's uncertainty with the neighbor 8's intense lustfulness. 7s rarely feel fully involved in their pursuits of things the way 8s do though, hence gluttony vs lust, where gluttony is more of a fear of denial than a real commitment to involvement in something. Although the 7w8s often sort of skirt the lines and can make you think they're 8-like until you realize deep down it was still more like a distraction they were seeking.

6 lies more or less caught in between these two, and is the center of the head triad, often experiencing in the most direct way the sense of doubt as to knowing whether one can ever know or ever be sure of one's ground. With any type there's often countertype measures. For example, some 6 defense mechanisms will more or less try to create psychological defenses which hold even when one cannot know.

6s often deal in a sense of obligation, as if they're forced by either their nature or reason or by some other imagined authority to behave a certain way. The can be very assertive rather than timid, but the inner psychology often either depends on a source of security (in their heads, some authority, such as reason, justifies them, as if holding their hands) or is a countertype-ish move against fear.
6s often either feel they either need to cling to something, or expressly get caught recklessly burning the things they cling to out of unconscious fear.

 

[Vianna]

I can help (if we can discuss it out). For starters, why not say how you relate to whichever types you relate to and we can try to find the best pattern.

I'll try to be as short as possible.

4w5: I relate to the need of understanding things, how they work, realizing and understanding systems and intellectualizing causes around me. I often struggle with low self esteem, but I am extremely confident in my knowledge and intellect and use it as a back up when I feel insecure. I tend to analyze my feelings a lot and have tendencies towards intellectual obsessions. But the truth is, I can be superficial and unfocused at times. I often feel disconnected from the world and reality and try to withdrawn, but at the same time, I am aware of importance of social contact and my environment.

4w3: I am very image focused, I care whole lot about how others perceive. I always try to make a good impression and I am aware of social norms and expectations, but sometimes my shyness and low self-esteem holds me back. I care about attention and try to grab attention with my looks mostly. I care a lot about being attractive, I am also highly attracted to fame and popularity and I want to be very successful person. I want to be recognized and appreciated, but sometimes I can really get into whatever nevermind state of mind. When I am lazy and irresponsible and act more like a punk kid, than someone who wants be successful.

5 as my head fix.. I think I already said why and how I relate to enneagram 5 as my wing so I guess that would be enough. I am thinking about the fact, that I might be just a 4w3 with 5 in my tritype.

6 as my head fix; I can be security oriented. Sometimes I am overly anxious about possible happenings and I often feel like something bad might happen so I try to make sure I am safe and comfortable. I feel like I need a gaudience, someone who would take care of me and make me feel secure. I can be very doubtful and think a lot about different possibilities. But I am not very cautious, I often end up doing pretty silly or irresponsible things. I am not good at preparing myself to avoid the danger, I just kind of hope the denger will avoid me. I am not paranoid, I am more naive and trusting with people.

7 as my head fix; I need a lot of fun and excitement in my life. Often when something doesn't seem like fun, I'd rather not do it. I am open to new experiences and possibilities. I value freedom to explore and try out everything among the highest values in my life. I need a lot of space to enjoy things, I like fine things in my life, I like pleasure and novelty. But... I am lazy and often miss the optimism of a 7. I need someone to cheer me up to show me the possibilities and to get me into a real action, because I am mostly inactive and just dream about experiencing wonderful things in my own mind.

1 as my gut fix; I can be perfectionist when it comes to putting high ideals on myself and others. I also have very strong vision, I try to be true to. But I am not a perfectionist when it comes to anything else, I like settling and following my own rules and standards, but not anyone else's. Also, I am messy, random and don't really care about organization unless it threatens standards. But I can be self-righteous and extremely critical when I think something doesn't match my visions or expectations.

8 as my gut fix, I like to be independent and I try to create an image of a strong and individualistic person, but I don't really care about having control over anyone else, but myself. I can be aggressive, when threatened and sometimes I can be direct and even hurtful with my criticism, but I generally avoid conflict when possible.

9 as gut fix; I very much value my comfort and peace. Almost to the point of missing on, on anything else. I like my lazy days, I like my own space. I like to withdrawn and just do something nice and pleasurable. I dislike conflict, but I wouldn't think of myself as a peacemaker, because I can be rude ones something is out of it. I like to mention harmony when possible and I like to adapt to make sure everything and everyone's fine.

When it comes to variants:
I am mostly success oriented, I want to achieve my goals and plans become a better person. I am oriented on myself and how I fit into the world and making myself a better person, developing my skills and changing my ways of perception and thinking. - this is my basic orientation, I have no idea whether it's sp or sx or so. I don't relate to any of them. I don't care about relationships, I don't care about my environment or anything physical tbh... I kind of care about my social status so I guess that would make so/something.

 

[charlatan]

I think you might be more 4w3 than 4w5 -- being a N >>>>> S influences intellectualizing things as you say you do.

It isn't realistic for a strong introvert and someone considering 4w5 to really be the crazy exuberance of 7, so there's a big cut-down to when it's in 2nd or 3rd place.

I think on gut type my wager is you're more of a 1 than a 9, based on your sort of abstract idealism. I relate to 9w8, by the way, in the following sense: gut/instinct is about the idea that we fundamentally don't necessarily act for a reason, or out of any significance, but simply because the raw energy is there to act, and we wish to be able to act. 1s seek the need to act rightly most of all. 9s tend towards sloth, and a sense that hey, I'm here, there should be nothing to block me in my actions and resist being influenced or told how to act, while also not seeking to influence and extend their domain of control the way 8s do.

Head type is where I feel I need to probably hear more. What kinds of core fears do you have that are head type like? E.g. 7s often fear a kind of void when everything they've filled their lives with just vanishes, and there's nothing. E6 can struggle with any asserting of themselves because of never feeling they can quite be sure of their ground enough to do so, even if they've thought through the matter more than almost anybody else. E5 can struggle with a kind of noninvolvement and excessive hesitation opposite to E7.

Side note, you might be a limbic type in the Big 5.

 

[Vianna]

I think you might be more 4w3 than 4w5 -- being a N >>>>> S influences intellectualizing things as you say you do.

It isn't realistic for a strong introvert and someone considering 4w5 to really be the crazy exuberance of 7, so there's a big cut-down to when it's in 2nd or 3rd place.

I think on gut type my wager is you're more of a 1 than a 9, based on your sort of abstract idealism.

Head type is where I feel I need to probably hear more. What kinds of core fears do you have that are head type like? E.g. 7s often fear a kind of void when everything they've filled their lives with just vanishes, and there's nothing. E6 can struggle with any asserting of themselves because of never feeling they can quite be sure of their ground enough to do so, even if they've thought through the matter more than almost anybody else. E5 can struggle with a kind of noninvolvement and excessive hesitation opposite to E7.

Side note, you might be a limbic type in the Big 5.

Thanks I guess you're right about 4w3.
Based on how you described head types, it is still not clear to my to which type I relate more. I do afraid a void, but I don't know if it's the kind of void 7s fear, I guess not, it's more of an existential void or living a life without meaning and purpose, but I think it is not a 7ish trait.

I relate to how you describe 6s having trouble to assert themselves and needing someone to ground them, because yes, this is often how I feel. But 6s are also cautious and paranoid, which I am not. But yeah I do have a problem with a lot of self doubt like 6s do.

And 5... yeah, I do struggle with nonivolemt and hesitation a lot. But that's because I often doubt myself, whether what I do is right or not. I need more time to think things through to be able to feel like engaging in an activity and I also analyze things a lot as I see more variants and try to figure out which one si right. I don't enjoy being too impulsive.

It's interesting that you said 1 as my gut fix, because I usually score 1 as my lowest on enneagram tests. Most descriptions show 1s as moral, firm and structured, but more in a physical sense of it, than abstract. I think I am firm and structured when it comes to abstract thinking and idealism, but I fail to apply this on the physical world. It's just sort of an idea in my mind that I carry inside.

 

[charlatan]

I have no idea whether it's sp or sx or so. I don't relate to any of them. I don't care about relationships, I don't care about my environment or anything physical tbh... I kind of care about my social status so I guess that would make so/something.

I think the sp sources are often restrictive in making it all about things like shelter. Sp is more generally just the basic instinct for wellness. Sx is the basic instinct for intensity of chemistry with another thing/person (e.g. attraction). So is the idea of looking at one's position within a community, whether one of friends, a society, or anything.

Many So 6s for instance are the types that you find excessively concerned about the workings of the society they're in, to the point where they'll not be nearly as comfortable as a sp, for instance, just doing their own thing, and look more expressly for their dutiful role (because it starts hinging on how they seek a sense of security).

I identify as sp > sx but am quite sx too. The reason I don't think I'm sx-dominant (as of the current moment!) is that I would say there's an unabashedness of sx-dominants I've known in seeking the object of attraction that somewhat compromises the instinct of self-preservation in a way I can never see myself doing.

We tend to engage all these instincts but with some drives severely more powerful at times.

 

[charlatan]

It's interesting that you said 1 as my gut fix, because I usually score 1 as my lowest on enneagram tests. Most descriptions show 1s as moral, firm and structured, but more in a physical sense of it, than abstract.

Yeah, and this is also related to how NJ gets misportrayed to some extent in MBTI. The J questions are often SJ-ish in tint, i.e. about planning schedules rather than a more abstract kind of thing.

For example having intense abstract sense of moral perfectionism would be a very NJ thing. NP orientation leads one to never miss observing how things are or could be, but NJ tends to strive for a greater sense of making a definite choice among life's possibilities, a greater abstract principledness. The quintessential NP way of living is that one cannot make a definite choice, only note with as wide of a gaze as possible all the tides influencing oneself, and note to some extent the choice is just a choice, not something we determined through screening every possibility out deliberately, wheres INJ tends to involve a greater sense of willfully conforming one's life to a sense of perfectionism.

The part of your MBTI type I was least clear on was P/J.

I think E1 shouldn't be only about punctiliousness and pedantry, the abstract idealism type thing (more NJ-ish than SJ-ish) strikes me as relevant to a wider understanding of E1.

Perhaps compare yourself with someone like me, who identifies more with 9w8, and you'll see a difference (if I did identify with E1, actually I'd say it would tip me to INTJ more).

 

[charlatan]

Hmmm. I'm going to guess based on your fear of existential void or never having a purpose that that is some 5 influence. Perhaps you're something like 4, 5, and 1.

A key reason 4, 5 are placed together as neighbors is they both involve a sense of intense self-focus, and if 5 is uncertain of something it tends to involve not seeing how they fit in with things. I'd say E6s can hate impulsiveness and wind up being noninvolved due to not wishing to get into things without certainty to the extreme. But E5s core fear winds up closer to the kind of hollowness you suggest you fear.

E7s don't tend to experience that, so much as they guard from it through perpetual distraction. E5 is called having passion avarice because they tend to try to cling to what they feel is their center.

Your E5 relation does seem like it can be interpreted either as a wing or as a tritype element and to be honest it's kind of random which you choose to interpret it as -- either/both works.

 

[Vianna]

Yeah, and this is also related to how NJ gets misportrayed to some extent in MBTI. The J questions are often SJ-ish in tint, i.e. about planning schedules rather than a more abstract kind of thing.

For example having intense abstract sense of moral perfectionism would be a very NJ thing. NP orientation leads one to never miss observing how things are or could be, but NJ tends to strive for a greater sense of making a definite choice among life's possibilities, a greater abstract principledness. The quintessential NP way of living is that one cannot make a definite choice, only note with as wide of a gaze as possible all the tides influencing oneself, and note to some extent the choice is just a choice, not something we determined through screening every possibility out deliberately, wheres INJ tends to involve a greater sense of willfully conforming one's life to a sense of perfectionism.

The part of your MBTI type I was least clear on was P/J.

I think E1 shouldn't be only about punctiliousness and pedantry, the abstract idealism type thing (more NJ-ish than SJ-ish) strikes me as relevant to a wider understanding of E1.

Perhaps compare yourself with someone like me, who identifies more with 9w8, and you'll see a difference (if I did identify with E1, actually I'd say it would tip me to INTJ more).

The fact is, that I do struggle with structer though, mostly dealines and I tend to do everything at the last possible moment. For my SJ mother, I am the most irresonsible person ever... So I don't know about J/P, I am still typed as J, but ... My mess, irresponsibility and flexible deadlines, that's pretty P. I might change it, but I still feel like needing more information and do some research on my own, so this will take a while. Anyway thanks, i think 1 is very possible, I'll check out some 4, 1 tritypes. What do you think about the head type?

 

[charlatan]

My mess, irresponsibility and flexible deadlines, that's pretty P.

Your type is more like an average than like an absolute; it's almost impossible to be a pure J or P, or T/F or anything.
So I'd really say that you "lose some J points" for being a mess, but I'd say also that the aspects of J/P harmonizing most with your INF nature are most important because to some extent your type isn't just your traits but the real center and foundation of your attitude towards the dimensions. It's likely the aspects of J/P that are holistically related to INF are more central to your ego/identity than are the aspects related to organization.

Js tend to want their views settled, not open-ended. People like me get lost in endless theoretical speculation (somewhat due to 6-land) and feel less interested in reaching full closure than many Js, but also are much less open-ended than typical Ps for example. Js have a sense you need to really reach the answer as to "how things should be" more than Ps, especially IPs, who tend to have more of a watch what's going on attitude.

I think head type wise, instinct tells me you are not a 7. The stuff about fearing a void of purpose is rather INF-y and 4-ish, but carries with it a 5-like tone too, in that it is very much a fusion of fearing a lack of direction based on not seeing how you fit in with things. You could interpret the 5 influence either as evidence 5 is your dominant wing (despite 3 influence) or as your tritype head type, or both.

I'd not fear if it's both, because really the tritype just gives you room for putting variation where it belongs. It's fine if it doesn't add too much beyond your main type.

 

[charlatan]

Tentatively so far, 4w3-1w9-5w6 maybe.