Vaccines Debate | Page 19 | INFJ Forum

Vaccines Debate

TOPICS: AUTISM, MEDIA CRITICISM, LIFE NEWS
The anti-vaccine crusade remains one of the enduring, heart-rending mysteries of our young century. Despite all reasonable evidence showing that failing to vaccinate children puts them at enormous risk, an astonishing number of parents hold off anyway because of scientifically unproven fears that it could lead to the onset of autism or other conditions. More mystifying still: The parents susceptible to vaccine conspiracy theories often are well-educated, liberal-minded denizens — people just like Salon readers — in upscale areas like Marin County, Calif., which has the fifth-highest average-per-capita income in the U.S., but whose parents bypass vaccines at three times the rate of the rest of the state; or in Ashland, Ore., where the exemption rate is an astounding 30 percent.

In “The Panic Virus,” journalist Seth Mnookin gives a gripping, authoritative account of how the anti-vaccine crusades caught on, shining a bright light on Andrew Wakefield, the now disgraced British researcher whose early work claiming a link between vaccines and autism created a global stir, and authors like David Kirby (“Evidence of Harm”) and celebrities like Jenny McCarthy, who hyped the shocking connection long after it had been debunked and Wakefield denounced. (The denouncements continue; this month, the British Medical Journal accused Wakefield of an elaborate fraud.).
Mnookin, a Vanity Fair writer and a longtime media reporter, shines a particularly blinding light on journalists, who have often been too eager to uncritically repeat frightening vaccine conspiracies and, in some cases, publish their own gotcha coverage, exacerbating the panic without the evidence to back it up.

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I should disclose here that Mnookin is a friend, and I consider him a friend of this publication, one who wrote for us during his early days as a writer. But that didn’t stop him from taking a searing look at the role Salon played in hyping the danger of vaccines. In 2005, we published a report, “Deadly Immunity,” by Robert F. Kennedy Jr. that appeared in Rolling Stone magazine (Salon had a co-publishing arrangement with the magazine at the time), in which Kennedy wrote that he “became convinced that the link between thimerosal [a mercury-based compound once used in vaccines] and the epidemic of childhood neurological disorders is real” and set out to make his case that “our public-health authorities knowingly allowed the pharmaceutical industry to poison an entire generation of American children, their actions arguably constitute one of the biggest scandals in the annals of American medicine.” In the days after publishing Kennedy’s story Salon was forced to run a slate of corrections to errors in his piece. Mnookin effectively describes Kennedy’s “egregious … slicing and dicing” of statements and data in the article. We’ve come to believe that keeping even the corrected story up on our site is a disservice to the public, and have removed the story from our archives (you can read more about that decision here).
We spoke to Mnookin about how vaccines have become such a persistent, politicized issue, the fraught history of inoculation in this country, and what it’s like, as a new father, facing the vaccine question.
You document how the anti-vaccine movement in this country has taken on particular energy with affluent people, in intelligent, liberal communities. Why do they seem the most susceptible to believing the myths about vaccines?
I think it sort of hits a lot of issues that make instinctive sense to more liberal, well-educated people. It’s not difficult for me to imagine that pharmaceutical companies do not always have my best interests at heart. Similarly, that big businesses are able to manipulate the governmental profits, manipulate lawmakers in order to effect policies that may not be in my best interest. So I think those are two things that come into play here a lot. And the narrative of parents and children being taken advantage of and being harmed by big business, by big corporations, is a very compelling one. You don’t see a lot of movies about the sympathetic drug company.
But your book also documents the long, historic anti-vaccine or anti-inoculation fervor in our history, going back to the 18th century and Cotton Mather, who was ironically a great proponent of early inoculation treatments. Is there a natural American skepticism of anything that government tries to mandate?
I think that what you saw in the early days of the smallpox vaccine and what you’ve seen since then are slightly different. Because what happened, initially, when the smallpox vaccine was first introduced was …. something that no one had any experience or history with. Or reason, really, to trust. So I think that came into play a lot, and a sort of interplay between that and this American sense of liberty and personal freedom.
Religion too, right?
Well, definitely, at the time, yeah. You don’t think of Cotton Mather as being a free thinker, you think of him as being involved in the Salem witch trials. But he was very much in favor of these early inoculation attempts, and he was accused of asking people to side with the devil. And at the time, one of the arguments was that if God wants you to be sick, you should be sick. But since then, it’s been a little bit more cyclical in that when you’re surrounded by people who are dying or are made incredibly ill by a given disease, people tend to be in favor of that vaccine.
One of the interesting stories in your book, that I didn’t know that much about, was the Cutter Labs incident involving the polio vaccine.
It wasn’t something I knew anything about either, before I started looking into this. It’s a remarkable incident in our history. The Jonas Salk vaccine trials were the biggest medical trials in the country’s history. And then, within days [of the early vaccine being released to the public], it turned out that one of the labs had been producing faulty batches, and kids were being paralyzed and in some cases were dying.
And yet it didn’t stop people from eventually getting vaccinated.
The fact that the polio eradication effort and polio was eradicated in this country was a sign how pervasive fears over polio were at the time.
People just knew people who were suffering from polio, they had this constant reminder, in their neighborhoods or in their communities, of people who were just in horrible shape or in some cases dying.
It’s horrific; you don’t need to know a lot of people living in an iron lung to understand how horrific that is.
Do you think that’s part of the reason that people today can even consider being anti-vaccine? Because they’re not confronted with the possible ramifications?
There are two different answers to that question. One is that obviously, one of the most vocal groups about this has been and is parents who believe that their children have been harmed by vaccines. I think that their outspokenness about this is very understandable, and I do not know what my reaction would be if my child was incredibly sick, and I think our natural inclination is to look for answers. Autism is a really scary disease, all the more so because we don’t know its causes, we don’t have effective treatments. I think the reaction on the part of those parents is really understandable.
Another thing that makes this so interesting is that this belief that vaccines are harmful is not something that is present in communities that have been personally affected by this. In this instance I think that part of it has to do with children. It can be really difficult to be rational when it comes to children. Especially your own children. I think part of it has to do with a basic misunderstanding of how science functions and what risk means; you know, a real sticking point over this has been scientists’ insistence on saying that vaccines are safe “according to everything we know.” And the implication there is that tomorrow we might know something else …
They’re really penalized by using careful language.
Yes. Exactly. But it’s not good; the reality is that all I can say is that I will not be able to run faster than the speed of light, according to everything we know.
It’s the limitation of science.
Exactly. I can say with an enormous amount of confidence that I won’t be able to in the future. However, I might be able to in the future. I can’t predict everything that could ever happen. You get scientists on TV, they’re used to talking in front of a conference or graduate seminars and you contrast that with someone who’s more comfortable speaking in absolutes — even when they’re not necessarily supported by evidence — and as a parent, one of them sounds a lot more compelling than the other. I think that the public health community has some degree of responsibility. I think that there’s an assumption early on in this current series of scares that the public would accept the vaccine just because they said so. And that clearly wasn’t true. There’s no question that we’re not in an age in which people are comfortable accepting things just because a so-called expert says that they should. That was something that public health officials didn’t realize until far too late. I think that they bear some responsibility for that.
The other entity that you indict pretty strongly is the media and journalists for playing a huge role in propagating a lot of false myths. I should say at this point that you have a really tough chapter devoted to a 2006 article written by Robert F. Kennedy Jr., and which Rolling Stone and Salon co-published. That was a specific case in which the story tried to link autism to the thimerosal. That has been thoroughly debunked by every serious inquiry. Was that report typical of the sort of journalistic problem you saw?
I do think that the media has more — we have more responsibility for this than really any other single entity. There are a number of reasons for that. One is this false sense of equivalence. If there’s a disagreement, then you need to present both sides as being equally valid. You saw with the coverage of the Birther movement; it’s preposterous that that was an actual topic of debate. The fact that Lou Dobbs addressed that on his show on CNN is an embarrassment. It’s not a subject for debate just because there are some people who said it was. I think you see that a lot in science and medicine, for a number of different reasons including the ways in which it can be hard to explain basic fundamental issues — so I think that is a huge, huge issue and that’s the huge issue that doesn’t come into play in the story. And I think it’s an absolute cop-out for reporters to say, “I’ve fulfilled my responsibility by presenting two sides.” Sometimes there aren’t two sides.
The false equivalency comes into play, really, in the situation of the MMR [measles-mumps-rubella] vaccine with Andrew Wakefield; you had him and a handful of researchers versus millions of doctors and researchers. I’m not talking about initially when his study first came out, but several years later when there had been all of these follow-ups. And obviously, you can’t quote millions of doctors in one story; on the one hand this person thinks this, and this person thinks this. You’re not talking about one person versus another. If I said that, oh, I have a report that Derek Jeter’s going to quit baseball, no one would run that because it would be embarrassing. Because there’s no information to support it. If I said that I have good information that Boeing is about to buy IBM, you know, people wouldn’t run that. But for some reason when it comes to health and science, you don’t get that. Instead of feeling embarrassed by running stories that people agree aren’t true, it’s kind of like, oh, we want to get out ahead of this controversy.
Then there’s the other type of reporting in which (and this is true of a lot of journalists) they’re looking for a really good story, and maybe they have preconceived notions about the way government works and you know corporations tend to be out for their own interest, not the public’s interest. That’s a different kind of journalism that created problems on the story.
Definitely. And I think that gets to another issue that comes into play with science and medicine. I’m not entirely sure why this is, but more so than in other areas there is a willingness to have people write about and cover these issues who don’t have any background in them. You wouldn’t ask me to go write about hockey, because I don’t know anything about hockey. But if something came in over the wire about a cancer study, often times, especially now with the cutting of science sections, that assignment could end up on a general reporter’s desk. You wouldn’t ask me to cover business or the movie industry without knowing something basic about it. I don’t know how this happened, but I think there has to be some sort of movement away from, oh, like, we’re going be the first ones with this juicy story. And then in the days and weeks to come, we’ll figure out what the reality is as to, you know, what it would be really embarrassing if we were the first ones on a story that ends up being completely ridiculous. And ultimately, that’s going to hurt our credibility with viewers, readers, whatever.
If you go on the Web and really spend much time going on Google news, for example, on autism, though, most respectable publications that immediately pop up quickly dispute any kind of link with vaccines. And yet, people still are drawn to this conspiracy.
Today, most of them do. It’s sort of like putting the genie back in the bottle. For years that wasn’t the case. For years you had stories saying that computers lead to brain cancer. Even if now most outlets said, no, you know what, computers actually don’t lead to brain cancer, I think it would be much harder to sort of dispel that. It’s the same thing with Obama and the Birther movement. Most outlets now certainly say that he was born in the United States. But once it’s introduced as a topic of discussion it’s really hard to un-introduce it.
I was surprised when, while you were on CNN recently, you were asked whether or not there were any peer-reviewed articles that linked autism with vaccines. It was kind of shocking seeing that on TV at this point, because of course there hasn’t been. It’s interesting that media figures still don’t seem comfortable just saying, “This isn’t true,” that they need a guest on their show to reiterate that it’s not true.
That whole segment, and in fact all of the coverage last week, is a really good example of what happens. The coverage has been that this study that linked the MMR vaccine and autism was fraudulent. But if you look at the story arc, especially on TV, most of it has been OK, so, is there anything to this? Well, no, we’ve known for years there’s nothing to this. Wakefield lost his right to practice medicine over a year ago.
It’s a weird déjà vu. It’s almost as though the latest report debunking the conspiracy almost gave credence it, just by giving Wakefield another chance to make his case.
Well, and not only that, understandably, if a year ago, you saw “autism and vaccines, the link is disproved” and a year later if you see the same story, you’d feel like, wait a minute, was not this true last year? Next year they tell me this again, and what does that mean about what they’re telling me now?
When things seem always in play, there’s always a question of what the truth is. So how should this most recent story have been played?
I think a way would have been something like, “The researcher who promoted a link between the MMR vaccine and autism that was disproven years ago is now under further fire for a new series of problems with his initial work.” Not, “Now, this study is shown to be fraudulent.” The study was shown not to be accurate years ago. It could not be accurate because of shitty data, because of bad research practices, any number of things, because he’s a fraud. It was shown not to be valid years ago.
You spent a lot of time with these anti-vaccine groups. And you know the science, you know the logic, you know what’s true in this story. Was it frustrating interviewing them; were you constantly fighting the urge to shake them and argue with them?
When I went into this, I actually didn’t know — which I think is sort of emblematic of part of the problem. I consider myself fairly well-educated. But I started researching it because I actually had no idea and was surprised that there was so much disagreement about something that there had to be factual evidence on. It wasn’t like people were saying there was a middle ground.
During a lot of my research, I didn’t feel like I had this certainty that I do now. Because it takes a long time to read through years of scientific reports. But I found it very frustrating at times to talk to people like Andrew Wakefield. There was this certain whack-a-mole quality to his arguments. Parents, especially parents of children who were either autistic or children who are ill for some other reason, I didn’t get frustrated with because I think that they are coming from a genuine place, and they want to protect their kids. They believe that there is a connection between vaccines and what happened to their children.
One example that I thought was fascinating and, for me, was very telling, was there were these enormous omnibus court trials in what’s called vaccine court. It involved thousands of families who were suing, and the [alleged] crime was that their children had been made ill by vaccines. And there was one family that was kind of a test case for the omnibus hearings and the mother testified about what had happened when her daughter was a year old and 9 months old, and 15 months old. And in this case, there actually were videotapes and contemporaneous records of that child, and the mother’s recollections didn’t match up with the videos. I don’t think that she was being dishonest at all. I think that’s what human beings do: We order things in our brains in ways that make sense. I’m not immune to that; I do things like that, too. I didn’t find that frustrating. I found it upsetting, a lot of times. And I found that the sort of overall tenor and viciousness of the debate to be upsetting. But I didn’t get frustrated talking to the parents in that same way. You said that I was really hard on people in the media, and some very specific people, and I think that’s because I did get frustrated in those instances. And I thought that was irresponsible.
Your son is now over a year old. Have you had any hesitation about getting his vaccines?
No. You know, that said, obviously you can’t tell a 3-month-old or a 6-month-old that this is all going to be fine, and that you’re not trying to hurt him. I found it excruciatingly painful. I definitely wanted to grab him and run.
Explain that — why?


Not because I thought that he was going get sick, just because here’s this tiny creature that it’s my job to protect him, and something’s going to happen to him that’s going to hurt. That was horrible. I hated it. I found that to be very difficult. I wasn’t worried about the potential side effects. And I am worried about what the side effects would be if he wasn’t vaccinated. But I did find the whole experience of bringing him so someone could stick a needle in him, to be a difficult one.
http://www.salon.com/2011/01/16/seth_mnookin_panic_virus_autism/
 
Of course one way in which big pharma and their co-conspirators and co-child abusers in the government hide the truth about vaccines from the public is through their control of the media for example magazine publications which are largely controlled through the Council On Foreign Relations

Its very easy for any honest researcher to find out now online how centrally controlled the mass media is

Anyone who doesn't admit this to themselves is a liar
 
[video=youtube;1BZsWQaeJi4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BZsWQaeJi4[/video]

[h=1]Brian Deer exposed - vaccines, autism and the Lancet 12 parents[/h]
 
When a person posts clip after clip full of testimonies of scientists, doctors, whsitleblowers, parents and affected children all saying that vaccines are dangerous and are affecting people in adverse ways and some people continue to only answer with government lies (proven to be lies now by whistleblowers) and big pharma sponsored propaganda you really have to wonder what kind of people they are....whats in their hearts?

Why would they protect gvoernment groups who have proveably lied?

What interest do they have in protecting lies and big business? (big pharma)

Is it because they have injected their own children and cannot accept to themselves that they have made a mistake or are they somehow invested in big pharma or the government?

I don't know...it will be different for each person but one thing is for sure they are happy to protect lies and lairs
 
If the media and Internet are to be believed (and these days, really, what is the difference?), the act of parenting has become a full-scale cultural war. How to raise your kids. On what to raise your kids. How your kids sleep, eat, play, and practice “Little White Donkey” on the piano–nowadays, these are all grist for the mill.But if modern parenting feels like a war, its bloodiest battlefield surely must be that of the vaccine debate–namely, between parents who decide to vaccinate their children in accordance with recommended medical guidelines, and those parents who do not. Vaccines. At this point, even the word itself is polarizing, sending parents skittering in opposite directions, like scattered iron filings between two magnets.

This is not going to be, at its core, a piece about the vaccine debate. At this point, I trust it’s a story we all know well. Regardless of which side of the debate you align yourself, it is difficult to argue against the fact that the development of vaccines is one of the greatest advances in modern medicine–right up there with antibiotics and anesthesia. Vaccines, of course, are biological agents, prepared in a number of different ways, which strengthen the body’s own immunity to a number of dangerous or potentially fatal diseases. When they were developed, vaccines were heralded as nothing less than a miracle. Over the years, potentially fatal diseases like the measles, polio, and smallpox were virtually eliminated with routine immunization.
Ask parents who choose against vaccinating about the reasons behind their decision, and you may hear a handful of different answers, both specific and vague. But direct or indirect, it is difficult to ignore the influence of one particular man named Andrew Wakefield, who in 1998 published a paper inThe Lancet about a link between the measles, mumps and rubella (MMR) vaccine and the development of autism. The study has since been roundly debunked and condemned several years ago by the scientific community at large, but the damage, it seems, was already done. The word was out:vaccines are dangerous. And despite best scientific evidence, that’s the sole message that remains for many. As easy as it was to scare people, it becomes impossible, now, to un-scare them.
All this, like I mentioned before, is old news, and at this point, you honestly don’t need me to tell you about any of it. What I do want to address, however, is the way in which this debate has pitted parents against doctors, creating an adversarial relationship when it comes to the task that both parties have at heart–namely, raising healthy children. Somehow, the rhetoric from the most vocal portion of the anti-vaccine contingent has turned particularly antagonistic, painting doctors and the drug companies who develop vaccines as greedy, ignorant, maleficent perpetrators of a giant medical conspiracy, and who recognize the supposed harm of vaccines but who willfully force them on children anyway.
This is the part where I have to admit that, as a doctor who also just so happens to be a parent, this topic never fails to enrage me. To be clear, my reaction to people who don’t vaccinate is not annoyance, not puzzlement, not dismay, but actual, visceral anger, like I’m taking people’s anti-vaccination sentiments as a personal affront. I’ve worked in both pediatric and adult medicine, and I’ve had more than my share of patients disagree with my medical assessments, but this is one of the few issues that I take so much to heart, that can make me this upset, and it makes me wonder why.
The fact is, when people tell me that they decided not to vaccinate their children, I am taking it personally.
Here is why.
As someone who works in healthcare, with sick patients, I see every day the injustice and horror that is illness. Preventative healthcare is a wonderful thing, perhaps the best kind of medicine that we can practice. Along with a healthy lifestyle, protecting against preventable illness is a big part of that. As a doctor, it’s quite simply the very best that we know how to do.
So when I stumble upon those internet parenting boards, read the anti-vaccination literature and hear the rhetoric, I see people who are not only rejecting we have to offer, but are vilifying doctors and other healthcare workers–who have devoted decades of their lives to caring for children and families and continue to work their hardest to give patients the highest quality care we know how. And quite frankly, it hurts my feelings. It’s not just paternalism, it’s not about me wanting to tell patients what to do and for them to comply mindlessly, it’s about me wanting to do my job and do it well, always, for everyone. And when I feel like people reject my efforts and recast my motives as somehow evil, greedy, or just plain ignorant, it hurts my feelings.
So yeah, I take it personally. I respect a parent’s intuition and I respect the fact that no one feels great, myself included, about bringing their baby in, making them cry by jamming them with needles filled with seemingly mysterious antigens and preservatives. As a doctor I know fever and irritability is part of the immune process in action, but as a parent, I still hate to see it. The rational mind understands the biology, but I know first-hand that the desire to protect your children from all real or potential harm is beyond conscious thought–it is, pure and simple, instinct.
But I respect science, too, and I have based my life around that. In lieu of religion, I have science. And the impulse to prosthelytise is equally strong. And just like people who prosthelytise about religious faith, I am doing so not to force you to be like me, not to scorn or humiliate you for possibly being of a different faith, but because I care about you and your children and families, and I want what all best evidence I have points to being the most effective way to stay out of my hospital.
Doctors aren’t always the best communicators, and though the vaccine debate in some ways feels like it has inflamed beyond the easy fix of rational discussion, I wanted to at least offer one doctor’s viewpoint. Because when you tie a doctor’s hands to do their very best for you and your family, it’s not just that they’re angry at you for doing it. It’s because most doctors are people who went into medicine to “first, do no harm,” and as much as anything, they’re angry at themselves for letting you down.
Michelle Au is an anesthesiologist and author of This Won’t Hurt A Bit (and other white lies): My Education in Medicine and Motherhood. She blogs atThis Won’t Hurt at Bit and the underwear drawer. This article is reprinted with the author’s permission.
http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2011/09/people-decide-vaccinate-children-personally.html
 
[video=youtube;6S1-LgYyjQg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6S1-LgYyjQg[/video]
 
I'm speaking from the perspective of someone who's well-versed in bacteriology and virology.

1. Read about all the diseases that have vaccines. All of them. And ask yourself if you would want to risk catching that sort of infection and spreading it.
2. Read about the Influenza epidemic of 1918 and think about the role herd immunity could have played.
3. Reread @Bird 's post
4. Alzheimers and other prion-related diseases tend to increase in frequency with AGE. As cells and proteins get older, their regulatory abilities decline, leading to cancers,Alzheimer's,CJD,etc.
5. I don't like mandates, but the public needs to be educated on vaccines, the pros and cons, and not choose to not vaccinate due to the ignorance of a celebrity.
.
 
The psychopathic corporation (big pharma is a made up of big corproations)

[video=youtube;lmUXp_zE14E]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmUXp_zE14E[/video]

[h=1]Cancer: How Big Pharma Makes Money from Dying Children[/h]

[video=youtube;x5FGxOnef3E]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5FGxOnef3E[/video]
 
[video=youtube;RfdZTZQvuCo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfdZTZQvuCo[/video]
 
More testimonies from doctors and not opinionated uninformed idiots with big mouths

[video=youtube;SFQQOv-Oi6U]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFQQOv-Oi6U[/video]
 
[video=youtube;RfdZTZQvuCo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfdZTZQvuCo[/video]
on the contrary, These guys are experts on charlatanism. If you want to see how people can be deceived by a blatant lie, ask a magician. (a real one, not a metaphysical one)
 
on the contrary, These guys are experts on charlatanism. If you want to see how people can be deceived by a blatant lie, ask a magician. (a real one, not a metaphysical one)

Wait...you're sayin that pen and teller are charletans?
 
I've been asked by several people to comment on this thread, and either delete it, request people to leave, or step in.

I created this thread awhile ago out of interest and generating friendly discussion around the topic. It's an issue that has very differing opinions, with a variety of sources and claims behind each of them.

As with any thread I create, I assume that discussion will be respectful and considerate, and that if you wish your own opinions/thoughts/facts/data/ideas heard, you will be respectful of the opposing views. I also do not exclude any or all opinion/discussion by anyone, unless it is rude and hurtful.

I left this thread awhile ago, as I felt it no longer was about discussing the topic, and more about 'being right' or 'proving a point'. This post is merely being respectful of the individuals who have asked me to step in as the OP...other than that, I would like to leave this slightly toxic thread.
 
I've been asked by several people to comment on this thread, and either delete it, request people to leave, or step in.

I created this thread awhile ago out of interest and generating friendly discussion around the topic. It's an issue that has very differing opinions, with a variety of sources and claims behind each of them.

As with any thread I create, I assume that discussion will be respectful and considerate, and that if you wish your own opinions/thoughts/facts/data/ideas heard, you will be respectful of the opposing views. I also do not exclude any or all opinion/discussion by anyone, unless it is rude and hurtful.

I left this thread awhile ago, as I felt it no longer was about discussing the topic, and more about 'being right' or 'proving a point'. This post is merely being respectful of the individuals who have asked me to step in as the OP...other than that, I would like to leave this slightly toxic thread.

Toxic is a very suitable word to use

I'm glad you didn't give into them and delete it because suppressing the information and disrupting its flow to the public is what they are all about

The truth about vaccines is coming out now with the whistleblowers and soon there will be no debate on this issue
 
[video=youtube;6S1-LgYyjQg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6S1-LgYyjQg[/video]

Muir, weren't you yelling at [MENTION=12327]Anywhere But Here[/MENTION] earlier for reposting videos and stuff? I seriously think that's the second or third time you've brought that video up in this thread.
 
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I've been asked by several people to comment on this thread, and either delete it, request people to leave, or step in.

I created this thread awhile ago out of interest and generating friendly discussion around the topic. It's an issue that has very differing opinions, with a variety of sources and claims behind each of them.

As with any thread I create, I assume that discussion will be respectful and considerate, and that if you wish your own opinions/thoughts/facts/data/ideas heard, you will be respectful of the opposing views. I also do not exclude any or all opinion/discussion by anyone, unless it is rude and hurtful.

I left this thread awhile ago, as I felt it no longer was about discussing the topic, and more about 'being right' or 'proving a point'. This post is merely being respectful of the individuals who have asked me to step in as the OP...other than that, I would like to leave this slightly toxic thread.

interesting to say the least. I suppose any debate with muir leads (at least me) to questions of falsifiability, accuracy, reliability, authenticity...etc. And as such I realize I am a major driving force in the, shall we say discontent. I hate seeing misinformation being spread, especially when it hurts people by convincing them not to get vaccinated. I've heard and read of too much pain for people not getting vaccinated when they could have been. To me, I see it as unnecessary and preventable suffering. I realize I can and do get heated in the discussion, so I do apologize for that which I brought about. However I cannot standby and let such misinformation be spread by someone who doesn't understand the science behind it. And because of my style of arguing with philosophy students, I tend to fall on those arguments first, for example pointing out his tendency to rely on arguments of authority. In philosophy class, people will just ignore most such arguments unless you yourself can explain why it is correct (which kinda turns it away from an argument of authority anyways). I will try to restrain myself from here on out. If I do make a mistake and respond heatedly, I can only hope others will understand, but otherwise I will be looking out for the interest of those who do not know the science behind the issue and are willing to listen to such arguments.
 
One guy fanatically defending an irresponsible position is not really a debate. And if you notice, he always has to have the last word.
 
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Muir, weren't you yelling at @Anywhere But Here earlier for reposting videos and stuff? I seriously think that's the second or third time you've brought that video up in this thread.

If thats the case then you should really pull stu up as well no?

Unless of course you are totally biased

The difference there i'd say is that one is factual whereas pen and teller are a pair of schmucks
 
What did you guys think of the expert testimony of the expert Dr expert Suzanne expert Humprhies that i posted above....she's an expert by the way so you two who have no inside knowledge could learn a lot from her

Did i mention she's an expert?
 
http://www.naturalnews.com/047746_flu_shots_senior_citizens_vaccine_deaths.html#

[h=1]Five seniors die in Georgia care center after receiving flu shot - report[/h] Friday, November 21, 2014 by: Jennifer Lilley

Healthcare workers at Hope Assisted Living & Memory Care Center in Dacula, Georgia, whose identities have not been made known as of this writing, have informed Health Impact News that on November 7, 2014, five residents of the center received flu vaccinations, only to die one week later.[SUP](1)[/SUP]

The workers also explained that these individuals immediately developed a fever after receiving the flu shot. Furthermore, they maintain that the number of people who died during the time frame in which they did is significant; not only was it in the days that followed their flu shot, but one source notes that, typically, the center "maybe loses a couple of people every 6 months or longer to Alzheimers," but five people in a one-week period is very atypical.[SUP](1)[/SUP]

The center's website says, "The Hope Center is a new state-of -the art [sic] assisted living and Alzheimer Care facility servicing Lawrenceville Georgia, Gwinnett County and Atlanta, Georgia. The 64 residences are designed specifically to care for those afflicted with Alzheimer's and other dementias."[SUP](2)[/SUP]

[h=1]Facebook posts and changes on the facility's social media page raise questions[/h]Interestingly, the center maintained a Facebook page before news over this incident became public. An image of its page is shown on Health Impact News, one that happened to include a threatening message from the center to the person(s) responsible for bringing the matter to light. Their then-message read:

To all concerned,

There have been NO flu related deaths at the community. There was a post last night that we have been trying to reach to find out the source of the article. We have contacted Facebook for assistance and plan to pursue legal action as soon as the source is identified
.[SUP](1)[/SUP]

That particular Facebook page's cover image featured an actual photo of a building, likely the center, along with the exact address in the "about" section.

However, drastic changes to their page have since been made, including removal of the aforementioned "to all concerned" note, as well as removal of the initial cover photo.

Additionally, it's worth noting other before/after differences to the center's Facebook page. In fact, it appears that there are two different Facebook pages that both provide the same website for the center.

Previously, the center referred to itself as the "HOPE Center for Memory Care" with the description below carrying the wording, "Retirement & Assisted Living Facility."

Their Facebook pages, as they currently exist, are different.

"Hope Memory Care Center" is now the name appearing on one of their pages where the description below now reads, "Medical & Health." On this page, only a post from 2011 (the year they joined Facebook) appears, with the urging to visit their website.

Another Facebook page has "Hope Assisted Living & Memory Care Center" as the heading, underneath which "Health Agency / Retirement & Assisted Living Facility" appears. On this page, only generic information about the facility is posted.

The website provided is the same on both Facebook pages.

One can't help but wonder if such changes in imagery and wording lend itself to a loophole in which the center may be able to diminish or altogether remove its responsibility in these deaths, if indeed further investigation points unfavorably in their direction. Either way, the abrupt change to their pages and omission of posts raises curiosities about the situation.

No statements about the incident other than the one now removed on the social media page have been found on their website.

[h=2]Evidence yet again that flu vaccinations should be avoided[/h]The unfortunate deaths of these individuals comes at a time when warnings against receiving the flu vaccination are becoming increasingly urgent.

In fact, just recently, award-winning Dr. David Brownstein, a board-certified family physician and medical director of the Center for Holistic Medicine in West Bloomfield, MI, stood against the American Academy of Obstetrics and Gynecology's statement that flu vaccinations are "essential," saying that because the vaccine is preserved with mercury, which can lead to death, it should therefore be avoided.[SUP](3)[/SUP]

Studies conducted by the Natural News Forensic Food Lab reinforces just how detrimental the flu shot can be to health; it was discovered that vials of batch flu vaccine made by GlaxoSmithKline (GSK) had up to 25,000 times the legal maximum amount of mercury allowed in drinking water as set forth by the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA).[SUP](4)[/SUP]

Sources:

(1) http://healthimpactnews.com

(2) http://www.hopememorycarecenter.com

(3) http://www.naturalnews.com

(4) http://www.naturalnews.com