[Important] - US Senate votes to let military detain citizens indefinitely | INFJ Forum

[Important] US Senate votes to let military detain citizens indefinitely

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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/...-detain-americans-indefinitely_n_1119473.html
WASHINGTON -- The Senate voted Tuesday to keep a controversial provision to let the military detain terrorism suspects on U.S. soil and hold them indefinitely without trial -- prompting White House officials to reissue a veto threat.
The measure, part of the massive National Defense Authorization Act, was also opposed by civil libertarians on the left and right. But 16 Democrats and an independent joined with Republicans to defeat an amendment by Sen. Mark Udall (D-Colo.) that would have killed the provision, voting it down with 61 against, and 37 for it.

"I'm very, very, concerned about having U.S. citizens sent to Guantanamo Bay for indefinite detention," said Sen. Rand Paul (R-Ky.), one of the Senate's most conservative members.
Rand's top complaint is that a terrorism suspect would get just one hearing where the military could assert that the person is a suspected terrorist -- and then they could be locked up for life, without ever formally being charged. The only safety valve is a waiver from the secretary of defense.

"It's not enough just to be alleged to be a terrorist," Paul said, echoing the views of the American Civil Liberties Union. "That's part of what due process is -- deciding, are you a terrorist? I think it's important that we not allow U.S. citizens to be taken."

Democrats who were also concerned about liberties compared the military policing of Americans to the detention of Americans in internment camps during World War II.
"Congress is essentially authorizing the indefinite imprisonment of American citizens, without charge," said Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.), who offered another amendment -- which has not yet gotten a vote -- that she said would correct the problem. "We are not a nation that locks up its citizens without charge."

Backers of military detention of Americans -- a measure crafted by Sen. Carl Levin (D-Mich.) -- came out swinging against Udall's amendment on the Senate floor earlier Tuesday.
"The enemy is all over the world. Here at home. And when people take up arms against the United States and [are] captured within the United States, why should we not be able to use our military and intelligence community to question that person as to what they know about enemy activity?" Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.) said.

"They should not be read their Miranda Rights. They should not be given a lawyer," Graham said. "They should be held humanely in military custody and interrogated about why they joined al Qaeda and what they were going to do to all of us."

In criticizing the measure, White House officials said that it would cause confusion and interfere with a counterterrorism effort that has been remarkably successful since Sept. 11, 2001 -- across two administrations.
"It is likely that implementing such procedures would inject significant confusion into counterterrorism operations," the White House argued in a Nov. 17 statement.
Further, it contended:
This unnecessary, untested, and legally controversial restriction of the President's authority to defend the Nation from terrorist threats would tie the hands of our intelligence and law enforcement professionals. Moreover, applying this military custody requirement to individuals inside the United States, as some Members of Congress have suggested is their intention, would raise serious and unsettled legal questions and would be inconsistent with the fundamental American principle that our military does not patrol our streets. We have spent ten years since September 11, 2001, breaking down the walls between intelligence, military, and law enforcement professionals; Congress should not now rebuild those walls and unnecessarily make the job of preventing terrorist attacks more difficult.

A White House official said the administration stands by the veto threat. "We take this very, very seriously," the official said.
Both FBI Director Robert Mueller and Director of National Intelligence James Clapper backed up the White House with letters sent to congressional leaders. Clapper echoed the charge that the measure creates uncertainty and added that it could prevent intelligence operatives from getting critical information from suspects.

And although the measure allows the secretary of defense to waive it, both Mueller and Clapper said that could prove unworkable in the real world.
Mueller added that it could even stop the FBI from investigating individuals who fall under the definitions of suspected terrorist in the measure.

The 2012 National Defense Authorization Act would authorize defense spending on military personnel, weapons and war. The first draft of the bill won support from both parties in Congress in October, passing out of the Senate Armed Services Committee with just Udall dissenting. A similar House bill allocating $690 billion for the Pentagon passed in May, without the controversial measure. It could be changed when the differing versions are merged, if Congress desires.
The detention provision whipped up a furor in both parties, with Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.) having already text delayed the vote over it.

The final vote showed bizarre fractures among Democrats, erasing the usual barriers between conservatives and liberals. The 16 who voted for the harsh detainee rules were Sens. Bob Casey (Pa.), Kent Conrad (N.D.), Kay Hagan (N.C.), Daniel Inouye (Hawaii), Herb Kohl (Wis.), Mary Landrieu (La.), Carl Levin (Mich.), Joe Manchin (W. Va.), Clair McCaskill (Mo.), Robert Menendez (N.J.), Ben Nelson (Neb.), Mark Pryor (Ark.), Jack Reed (R.I.), Jeanne Shaheen (N.H.), Debbie Stabenow (Mich.) and Sheldon Whitehouse (R.I.). National defense hawk and independent Sen. Joe Lieberman (Conn.) also voted in favor of the tougher language.

"It's one of those things where ... it's bipartisan on both sides. Levin's not on the same page as the White House. We've got our own internal differences; Paul and Kirk don't agree with Graham," said a senior GOP aide just before the vote.

"Everybody's trying to do the right thing. There's just a difference of opinion."

Even though Paul was joined only by Sen. Mark Kirk (R-Ill.) on his side of the aisle, the issue was contentious at the Republicans' weekly caucus lunch.

Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) emerged from the meeting -- where former Vice President Dick Cheney was in attendance -- saying his colleagues had "a spirited discussion" about Udall's amendment, and predicted nearly all Republicans would oppose the amendment, as they did.

Additional reporting by Hayley Miller.

America the...police state?
Obama needs to veto this like, right now.
Why is this not all over the radio and on the front page of every newspaper?
 
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That it would even be considered is depressing... then it gets passed... Hopefully, if it gets vetoed and repassed the Supreme Court rules against it, seeing as how it clearly violates "In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial"..
 
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Extraordinary rendition, warrantless wiretapping, and other practices done by the U.S. are not generally acknowledged. Most people don't care or will question your sources if you talk about how these things have happened even though they were all over the newspapers.
 
It's just the cycle of life. Eventually the American empire will implode and be replaced with some other government.
 
Sometimes different values are placed at odds with one another and you have to choose which one will take preference. For example, as a Jew it is an abomination for me to eat pork. But what if I were starving and the only food available is pork? Every Rabbi from here to Timbuktu will tell you that saving a life takes precedence, and that I would be morally obligated to eat the pork to stay alive.

This principal applies in the current political situation as well. There are enemies who want to kill us and destroy our society. Survival takes precedence over other values. Even Abraham Lincoln suspended habeus corpus during the war, and I certainly don't think of Lincoln as a fascist dictator.

Context, context, context.
 
The 1% know that in the coming economic hardship there will be resistance from the people. They are preparing for that with changes to legislation.

The term 'terrorism' is a catch all term. Anyone who disagreed with the government could be categorised as a 'terrorist'. That could include political opponents, human rights activists or protestors. If you spoke out against the government they could lock you up and throw away the key.

The UK government has just permitted the police to use rubber bullets in the case of civil unrest. Perhaps this is because the government have just cut the benefits for the poorest in society who have already rioted once this year

The struggle is on between the 1% and the 99% and its going to get rough

It's all about control and they are intent on increasing their control over us; this will come at the expense of our human rights and civil liberties.
 
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My question is the statistic of the MO behind the "terrorists"? Who are these people? Do you have more info?

The number of hate groups operating in the United States continued to rise in 2008 and has grown by 54 percent since 2000 — an increase fueled last year by immigration fears, a failing economy, and the successful campaign of Barack Obama, according to the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC). The SPLC identified 926 hate groups active in 2008, up more than four percent from the 888 groups in 2007 and far above the 602 groups documented in 2000.15
http://www.civilrights.org/publications/hatecrimes/white-supremacist.html

Of course "hate group" and "terrorist" are not totally symbiotic, but have relevancy.
 
Sometimes different values are placed at odds with one another and you have to choose which one will take preference. For example, as a Jew it is an abomination for me to eat pork. But what if I were starving and the only food available is pork? Every Rabbi from here to Timbuktu will tell you that saving a life takes precedence, and that I would be morally obligated to eat the pork to stay alive.

This principal applies in the current political situation as well. There are enemies who want to kill us and destroy our society. Survival takes precedence over other values. Even Abraham Lincoln suspended habeus corpus during the war, and I certainly don't think of Lincoln as a fascist dictator.

Context, context, context.
I understand your point, but I disagree with it.
I just don't think that we should be content to give up our freedoms on the chance that a terrorist might attack.
This just seems like..McCarthyism on meth. Are you really that afraid of a terrorist attack? Is it something that you worry about every day, every time you get in your car
to go to work or the mall? It's blown way out of proportion. The 'terrorists' haven't successfully landed an attack on us since 911... Bin Laden is already dead..
It's using fear to manipulate Americans into consenting to give up their freedoms.
Patrick Henry also said, "Give me liberty or give me death." That was the philosophy America was founded upon..

What really T's me off is that like @muir mentioned, people who disagree with the government could be called terrorists, and if that happens,
they will not receive due process. Look at the way police are over reacting to peaceful protesters now.
This bill does not bode well for free thinkers.
 
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Someone once said something about sacrificing liberty for security.

Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

Benjamin Franklin
 
I feel like now is the time to get rid of the phrase "I support the troops and not the war". I dont support the troops detaining American citizens.
 
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I feel like now is the time to get rid of the phrase "I support the troops and not the war". I dont support the troops detaining American citizens.

Here’s the best thing that can be said about the new detention powers the Senate has tucked into next year’s defense bill: They don’t force the military to detain American citizens indefinitely without a trial. They just let the military do that. And even though the leaders of the military and the spy community have said they want no such power, the Senate is poised to pass its bill as early as tonight.

Full Article Here
 
They just want more freedom to do whatever the hell they want. Less limitations the better

Terrorism is merely the excuse
 
Phew! I'm glad my country hasn't slowly become America's bitch over the last 50 years.

Oh wait.

And our prisons are privatised now.

Get off your asses and revolt, America! You're going to drag everyone down with you and that is totally not cool.
 
Phew! I'm glad my country hasn't slowly become America's bitch over the last 50 years.

Oh wait.

And our prisons are privatised now.

Get off your asses and revolt, America! You're going to drag everyone down with you and that is totally not cool.

What would you do to change things if you were an American citizen?