Two things that are hurting millennials

[Faye]

One: Students are taking on increasingly large amounts of debt to attend college. The average debt is is about $27,000 nationwide per student according to CNN:

http://money.cnn.com/2012/10/18/pf/college/student-loan-debt/index.html

Two: The requirements to enter a job--any job--are much greater than they were in the past. Even a college degree wont get you in the door in most areas anymore.

The result?

Millennials (my generation) are not really able to explore after we graduate. We cannot take jobs that are too low paying to pay off our debt. Well actually, many people are having to do this, but they are overqualified and under-stimulated.

I look at job postings in public service almost every day now, and most jobs I see in it now require experience and education when, in the past, they did not. There are very few entry level positions for people to try out the area and see if it is right for them, and I am sure that the same is true in the private sector as well. I have not seen a single entry level position for college degree-holders in the field posted yet in my area. Having a college degree is not enough anymore it seems.

I know that, in the office I am in now, many people are overqualified. I know of someone in my office with an MBA in a position that only requires a high school diploma.

There is a big push for people to get STEM degrees (science, technology, engineering, and math) so that they can get jobs in healthcare and engineering. There is a whole host of reasons why that is absurd, but I will just say that you do not want just anyone being your doctor and that engineers tend to be born and not made. In any case, most of the engineers I have seen are being brought in from other countries (i.e. India) where the competition and schooling is much more fierce.

And liberal arts/social sciences/business people are being shafted into the low wage service sector, and many of them are very unhappy about it.



So I think a lot of people are going to end up very miserable because they will never be able to find out where they fit since they wont have a chance to explore. In the past, people could bounce around in their 20s and perhaps end up somewhere good by working in different sectors; however, now it seems like they cannot even hope to do that.

 

[Gaze]

Hate to agree, but the idea that everyone has a right to self actualization seems to be diminishing. It's become a "take whatever you can get" world where less people have the luxury of picking and choosing what they want to do because there are fewer jobs in their interests and passions. I agree that those in the humanities and social sciences are getting more of the shaft than those with other types of degrees and that's sad. I think they are overemphasizing STEM to our detriment later on. And yes, too many people are going into healthcare who should never go near that field. Not everyone is a good fit for a profession but we aren't getting the choice to explore. In the past, like most grads who left undergrad 10-15+ years, we believed the world was our oyster but of course life takes a completely different direction. Now, everyone job you go to, wants to start you from the bottom up. No one wants to hire unless you have education or at least experience but even if you're hired, they don't want to have to pay you too much for your experience. They want to pay everyone the least they can even if they're more than qualified, which is good for a company economically, but bad for a person who has student or other loans, and who is trying to make a life for themselves where they can have a life in the future outside of working long hours just to survive. Everyone is told today to work endlessly without necessarily reaping the benefits of their hard work. Quite sad.

Yeah, I miss that feeling that I can do anything if I wanted to, that wide-eyed college student idealism where you feel anything is possible, and that your perfect career where you can live out your passion and make money everyday was possible. But that's not the world we live in anymore.

 

[the]

I don't agree that an entry level job is there for you to "try out". Most entry level jobs are there for you to learn how to contribute to the company and develop a skill. I don't think there was ever a job category that allowed young people to just explore. Maybe waitressing and migrant working, but that's it. Employers have always wanted a little more than "hey let me try that, no strings attached".

Also I think some of this can be attributed to less entrepreneurs these days. I think we may be nearing the limit on things we need manufactured - Do we really need another steel plant? I dont think other countries are interested in our goods, I think they know they can make them on their own now. Plus no one wants to be a farmer, and I cant blame them. But that is one industry that will always be needed, but it doesnt pay well. Well it actually pays alright, but its not glamorous. Thats being taken over by lawyers and industry ne'er-do-wells too. IDK its all just a hunch.

 

[Apone]

I think that corporatization is probably a big part of why there isn't as much room for entrepreneurs-- the opportunities just aren't there and if you have an idea it's probably too easy to just sell it to someone else. Small businesses have a hard time competing with the huge chain stores-- Wal-mart has completely destroyed the downtowns of many a small town Canada, and it's impossible to get people to go back to that kind of lifestyle… plus, almost everything has moved online so the whole 'corner shop' sort of lifestyle is dead, which is a real shame.

At the same time, as uncomfortable as it makes some people, I definitely think it's probably beneficial to be self-critical and try not to project ALL of the blame onto outside influences. As much as young people don't think they have enough opportunities, they are also a LOT more fickle about what kind of work they're willing to do, where they're willing to live, how much they expect to make, etc… very very very few young people actually want to become farmers (it's considered beneath them), or want to work in factories (it conflicts with their principles)... everyone is trying to get a small handful of prestigious jobs and completely ignoring the rest.

Another part of the problem is that people just expect their degrees to be like magic tickets to jobland-- one of the problems is that academia is completely cut off from the workplace and everything tends to be a lot more structured so there's no real room for taking the initiative, because you're basically just expected to conform to a set of criteria in order to get the mark that will then get you the magic job ticket… it's kind of a stupid process.

Personally, I think the government should come down hard on post-secondary education-- possibly even come up with a program where they give grants to students (who prove themselves) so that they can possibly hire an experienced professional to actually train them how to do the job they want to do, as opposed to suffering some pompous goon who only cares about his reputation within the 'community'. But of course it's a lot cheaper for businesses to defer training to the colleges, make the students pay for their own training (which is subpar), take their pick of the best, and let the rest slip through the cracks of society.

Still, in a lot of cases the problem is that we're becoming an increasingly specialized society where there's a high demand for experienced professionals that don't exist because the degree of specialization is so precise that almost nobody knows how to get to that point…

Finally, I also wish that schools/TV would stop promoting the whole 'reach for the stars' attitude-- the world is NOT set up so that everyone can do the job that they want to do, and telling your children that it is is incredibly irresponsible.

 

[MindYourHead]

I think over the past 30 years there has been way too much emphasis placed on getting a typical college degree, instead of going into to a technical college and learning a trade.
We now have a shortage of trades people. Plumbers, electricians, machinists, etc. These are high paying jobs that the market is clamoring for.
Nothing wrong with getting your hands dirty to make a living.

I sure as heck don't envy any millennial trying to enter the job market these days.

 

[Sriracha]

It seems that your skill level has always been the most important aspect of you and it doesn't come from 4 years of college ... it comes from a lifetime of experience.

I honestly think part of the problem is newer and newer generations feel unique and overqualified even though they are not. I think it's time to stop the egotism and get real ... most people do not work in the field where they received their education, but that means they HAD the necessary skills in order to perform their job. The ironic thing about the facts in the OP, is that one of the most discriminated groups are people over age 50. They have had their whole life to develop a skill (and you would think that this is the competition in the OP), but yet a company would rather hire an inexperienced person in order to pay them less.

 

[Sriracha]

I think over the past 30 years there has been way too much emphasis placed on getting a typical college degree, instead of going into to a technical college and learning a trade.
We now have a shortage of trades people. Plumbers, electricians, machinists, etc. These are high paying jobs that the market is clamoring for.
Nothing wrong with getting your hands dirty to make a living.

I sure as heck don't envy any millennial trying to enter the job market these days.

It's as though we need to get back to the days when the horse was pulling the buggy, but our thirst for new technology won't allow us to do so.

 

[the]

I think over the past 30 years there has been way too much emphasis placed on getting a typical college degree, instead of going into to a technical college and learning a trade.
We now have a shortage of trades people. Plumbers, electricians, machinists, etc. These are high paying jobs that the market is clamoring for.
Nothing wrong with getting your hands dirty to make a living.

I sure as heck don't envy any millennial trying to enter the job market these days.

i definitely agree. I don't know if they used to do this i the good old days, but I feel like I should have learned something besides math, science, art, and English in high school. You now, something I could make a living doing.

 

[Sriracha]

i definitely agree. I don't know if they used to do this i the good old days, but I feel like I should have learned something besides math, science, art, and English in high school. You now, something I could make a living doing.

Part of that is by your parents spending the time to teach you these things. When you think of the baby boomer generation, often times the only time they were able to spend time with their father or mother was while the parent was working ... skills that gave people something to fall back on. Kids were in the garage helping dad fix the truck or helping mom prepare dinner. As simple as this sounds, it was the seed for their ability to foster those skills into something profitable ... which I think includes work ethic and sometimes perfectionism.

 

[Vict]

Where'd you read that folks used to have the freedom to bounce around?

 

[MindYourHead]

i definitely agree. I don't know if they used to do this i the good old days, but I feel like I should have learned something besides math, science, art, and English in high school. You now, something I could make a living doing.

I've heard US high schools don't offer as much in the way of industrial arts / shop classes as they did when I attended.
Being into mechanics and loving to build things, I took nearly every class I could.

 

[SealHammer]

I, for one, am thrilled by the idea of entering into an inflated/nonexistent job market and having a bank own me for as long as ten years of my life. I don't know what you guys are so irked about.


But no, seriously, I definitely feel trapped by facts such as this. As someone who wants to do a major in psychology/neuroscience and go on to research, it terrifies me to know that academic/credential inflation threatens basically my entire plan for university. I could probably go into a vocation and be well-off, but hell, I think I'd rather be poor and enjoy the challenge that is science than fat and contented as a middle-class working citizen.

 

[Faye]

I don't agree that an entry level job is there for you to "try out". Most entry level jobs are there for you to learn how to contribute to the company and develop a skill. I don't think there was ever a job category that allowed young people to just explore. Maybe waitressing and migrant working, but that's it. Employers have always wanted a little more than "hey let me try that, no strings attached".

Also I think some of this can be attributed to less entrepreneurs these days. I think we may be nearing the limit on things we need manufactured - Do we really need another steel plant? I dont think other countries are interested in our goods, I think they know they can make them on their own now. Plus no one wants to be a farmer, and I cant blame them. But that is one industry that will always be needed, but it doesnt pay well. Well it actually pays alright, but its not glamorous. Thats being taken over by lawyers and industry ne'er-do-wells too. IDK its all just a hunch.

I disagree unless the company is doing a proper job investing in their employee and giving them training, mentorship, education sponsorship, or similar that will actually teach them a skill. More and more it seems that employers are unwilling to invest in their personnel and expect their employees to invest their own resources into becoming trained. If the company is investing in their employee, then it is reasonable to expect a return on investment for that employee; however, if they are not investing in the employee whatsoever and expect the employee to do it all on their own time/money, then the employee should not feel obligated to exit the voluntary exchange if they receive a better offer.

I think that corporatization is probably a big part of why there isn't as much room for entrepreneurs-- the opportunities just aren't there and if you have an idea it's probably too easy to just sell it to someone else. Small businesses have a hard time competing with the huge chain stores-- Wal-mart has completely destroyed the downtowns of many a small town Canada, and it's impossible to get people to go back to that kind of lifestyle… plus, almost everything has moved online so the whole 'corner shop' sort of lifestyle is dead, which is a real shame.

At the same time, as uncomfortable as it makes some people, I definitely think it's probably beneficial to be self-critical and try not to project ALL of the blame onto outside influences. As much as young people don't think they have enough opportunities, they are also a LOT more fickle about what kind of work they're willing to do, where they're willing to live, how much they expect to make, etc… very very very few young people actually want to become farmers (it's considered beneath them), or want to work in factories (it conflicts with their principles)... everyone is trying to get a small handful of prestigious jobs and completely ignoring the rest.

Another part of the problem is that people just expect their degrees to be like magic tickets to jobland-- one of the problems is that academia is completely cut off from the workplace and everything tends to be a lot more structured so there's no real room for taking the initiative, because you're basically just expected to conform to a set of criteria in order to get the mark that will then get you the magic job ticket… it's kind of a stupid process.

Personally, I think the government should come down hard on post-secondary education-- possibly even come up with a program where they give grants to students (who prove themselves) so that they can possibly hire an experienced professional to actually train them how to do the job they want to do, as opposed to suffering some pompous goon who only cares about his reputation within the 'community'. But of course it's a lot cheaper for businesses to defer training to the colleges, make the students pay for their own training (which is subpar), take their pick of the best, and let the rest slip through the cracks of society.

Still, in a lot of cases the problem is that we're becoming an increasingly specialized society where there's a high demand for experienced professionals that don't exist because the degree of specialization is so precise that almost nobody knows how to get to that point…

Finally, I also wish that schools/TV would stop promoting the whole 'reach for the stars' attitude-- the world is NOT set up so that everyone can do the job that they want to do, and telling your children that it is is incredibly irresponsible.

I know several people who have done or are in farming, but that is probably because I went to school in a rural area. Not all college students feel farming is beneath them, but even if they did want to go into farming, it does not pay well and so making those student loan payments will be difficult or even impossible, which is my point. You make a great point about corporatism being a barrier to entry, and yes, it is bad that schools are so into the reach for the stars idea because it is so far from reality. That is the education marketing industry for you though, and the sad thing is that many people don't know better.

I think over the past 30 years there has been way too much emphasis placed on getting a typical college degree, instead of going into to a technical college and learning a trade.
We now have a shortage of trades people. Plumbers, electricians, machinists, etc. These are high paying jobs that the market is clamoring for.
Nothing wrong with getting your hands dirty to make a living.

I sure as heck don't envy any millennial trying to enter the job market these days.

My high school had zero trades classes. It would definitely be good to have those and dispel the myth that everyone has to go to college. From what I was fed in high school, it seemed like you were a failure unless you went to college. I was going to go anyway because I wanted the educated, but I will admit that it is not for everyone.

It seems that your skill level has always been the most important aspect of you and it doesn't come from 4 years of college ... it comes from a lifetime of experience.

I honestly think part of the problem is newer and newer generations feel unique and overqualified even though they are not. I think it's time to stop the egotism and get real ... most people do not work in the field where they received their education, but that means they HAD the necessary skills in order to perform their job. The ironic thing about the facts in the OP, is that one of the most discriminated groups are people over age 50. They have had their whole life to develop a skill (and you would think that this is the competition in the OP), but yet a company would rather hire an inexperienced person in order to pay them less.

Yes, younger people are very narcissistic nowadays. I've met a lot of them. They came into my college wanting to be doctors but expecting it to be easy, and then they went insane when they failed O-chem 1. I really dislike people who feel that entitled.

A lot of older people are discriminated against because companies don't want to pay their benefits, which is really terrible. I had a great uncle who was reduced to minimum wage and stripped of his benefits when he about near the age to be entitled to benefits from the company. It is highly unethical and should be illegal, but apparently some corporations out there will do anything to make money.

Where'd you read that folks used to have the freedom to bounce around?

It follows from the fact that student loan debt was less in the past (or nonexistent) and that credentialism was not so prevalent. I've also been told it by some older relatives. It is hard to go back to school or take lower paying jobs when you're already in so much debt. You also have less freedom to quit you job and do something else because you're still obligated to the payments.

 

[Apone]

It follows from the fact that student loan debt was less in the past (or nonexistent) and that credentialism was not so prevalent. I've also been told it by some older relatives. It is hard to go back to school or take lower paying jobs when you're already in so much debt. You also have less freedom to quit you job and do something else because you're still obligated to the payments.

Ironically enough, people didn't actually 'bounce around' so much in the past... I guess I can't say for sure but from my dad's attitude (b. 1946), it seems like most of the people from his era had more or less stable careers... there wasn't so much 'temporary' work available. Even now a lot of employers have changed their former full-time career type positions to part-time so they don't have to provide benefits, etc. The thing is, the higher ups actually pay people to come up with these kinds of solutions.

And the most unfortunate part of why tuition is going up is because universities are turning themselves into amusement parks in order to draw more students (and more money). I can't find the article right now, but I did read it somewhere... things like gyms and restaurants and swimming pools and special transportation, etc...

If they got rid of a lot of these completely superfluous things, then education would probably be a lot more affordable... but people expect these things and are impressed by them, so everyone pays.

I bet you could make a fortune with a cheap school that offered ONLY a quality education and quality instructors, while not wasting money on big impressive structures or facilities.

Here's a brief article about the rising costs of tuition, and how spending seems to be the biggest policy with modern universities:

http://net.educause.edu/ir/library/pdf/ffp0005s.pdf

 

[passionista]

Apone, I really enjoyed reading about your opinion on our educational system. Being an INFJ myself, I already know that the trick is to get my head out of my ass and just keep cracking the whip on myself every 8 hours of everyday.

What is your career management process?

 

[Vict]

Really depends on a background other than college goers. My folks, for instance, didn't go to college, but they married young. Their freedom to bounce around was hindered by the fact that they had a family when most people are just getting out of college. Not to mention, bouncing around is inherently unstable, and not preferable for raising a family.

Families start late among some groups but there are many for whom college and freedom to move around aren't even a consideration.

That said, I didn't experience these millenial woes. I took out my loans, paid for school, graduated, found jobs and did well, and paid everything off. Any doubts I may've had about this were wiped from memory years ago. Unlike the situation I described above, I did find the freedom to bounce around and try out different companies and areas of my industry.

 

[Faye]

Ironically enough, people didn't actually 'bounce around' so much in the past... I guess I can't say for sure but from my dad's attitude (b. 1946), it seems like most of the people from his era had more or less stable careers... there wasn't so much 'temporary' work available. Even now a lot of employers have changed their former full-time career type positions to part-time so they don't have to provide benefits, etc. The thing is, the higher ups actually pay people to come up with these kinds of solutions.

And the most unfortunate part of why tuition is going up is because universities are turning themselves into amusement parks in order to draw more students (and more money). I can't find the article right now, but I did read it somewhere... things like gyms and restaurants and swimming pools and special transportation, etc...

If they got rid of a lot of these completely superfluous things, then education would probably be a lot more affordable... but people expect these things and are impressed by them, so everyone pays.

I bet you could make a fortune with a cheap school that offered ONLY a quality education and quality instructors, while not wasting money on big impressive structures or facilities.

Here's a brief article about the rising costs of tuition, and how spending seems to be the biggest policy with modern universities:

http://net.educause.edu/ir/library/pdf/ffp0005s.pdf

This is pretty much the case at the university that I am at now. They're investing in a big new football stadium, which they do not even need. Tuition has gone up by $100 per credit as a result.

It is a marketing strategy on the part of the schools. It is stupid, but that is what people demand. Most people care more about having a disney land experience than learning, so this is the result.

Competitive giving is another factor raising tuition. The problem is for the students that do not receive as competitive a scholarship. So, for instance, a private school will offer $50,000 to a student, and then another school will one-up them by offering $60,000. Only unfortunate (and misguided) students pay the full price for private education at most schools, but they are often the students who have had the least help in preparing for college (i.e. first generation).

 

[tfg345i4u5lw]

Live free or die.

 

[Pin]

I think that nowadays, it's either STEM, trades, or go home. It's not an ideal situation but it is not the 60s anymore. Millennials unfortunately have to suck it up.

It's also worth pursuing the highest education that one can.

 

[Faye]

Millennials are Screwed

I do not remember making this thread, but this is a good read.