Truly Kind and Gentle People

[charlatan]

I guess I don't even think of it as being unselfish; I tend to dislike the selfish vs altruistic dichotomy, because it raises the silly issue (that I kind of think is just bad philosophy) of "well if you WANT others to be happy, and you try to make them happy, aren't you being selfish too??"

I think that kind of misses the point, because the whole point is, it's not about whether you give up your desires or not. That seems to me to be irrelevant for the most part -- it seems more significant that someone wants others to be happy in the first place (whether or not they want themselves to be happy doesn't really change that fact).

What people think of when they think of selfishness is traditionally just someone who wants to be satisfied and doesn't care about extending a fair chance to others as well. They then sometimes extend this (again, IMHO in a move of bad philosophy) and try to say "everyone is selfish, anyway! So who cares!" by claiming the "well if you WANT others..." thing I said above. Either we keep the traditional definition of selfish (with negative connotation) or remove the word entirely, since if everyone is selfish, maybe it isn't really important to contrast it with another possibility (altruistic), if the word altruistic effectively has been defined in a way that it's impossible even in principle.

 

[Deleted member 10171]

True kindness doesn't look for acknowledgment. When a person does something out of kindness, it really isn't something they have to think about. It is part of their character. It is done because it was needed or it was right. They do not expect to be treated any better for the act and look for nothing in return.

That is usually how you can tell the difference. If you find a person always complaining about others being mean to them when they are so nice and they are hurt by it, that person usually isn't acting out of kindness. They were acting a certain way to get a certain result.

A resounding YES!!! This is exactly what I think and believe - hence my avid suspicious curiosity to know more about whether their motives are genuine or not. I have to see authenticity in the person before I can credit them with being "truly" kind - which is virtually impossible without actually being in a relationship with them and having the opportunity to get to know them (warts and all). This doesn't mean I discredit their kindness or unable to receive it - I'm just a little hesitant to commit myself by saying that such a person is truly a kind person. .

 

[Deleted member 10171]

Hi Isabella, yeah sure.

We don't reach out that much to one another. I think there is a lot of kindness out there, but we'll just go about our day without really noticing. I think we would be so much richer if we would reach out more.

There is a lot that is messed up out there, but even some of the most unreasonable people we meet are perfectly understandable once you get to know them. Life can be hard at times, and I think this reflects on who we are and how we react in our day to day life. It isn't so much that we are kind or unkind, I just think there are tough situations and stress, and some people have better ways of dealing with it.

I think I'm a bit low on blood sugar right now, but hope you get what I'm getting at.

Thank you - that makes perfect sense and I do agree with your sentiments. I wonder when I wrote "Genuine kind people are very rare - possibly even extinct" whether it came across (or interpreted) as dismissive. I'm blessed to have friends who are kind but in my world, I don't see that as anything special or unique - it's just a given. For me it's the most basic form of social interaction/friendship I expect from anyone (if it's absent then I shrug my shoulders). I think most people on this forum are very good at reaching out to each other and seeing things that perhaps other (types?) overlook.

I think the issue I have is with people who set themselves apart as "holier than thou" (public face) but privately I know them to be different to how the rest of the world sees them. I also believe that some people use kindness (whether consciously/unconsciously) to hide behind eg a passive/avoidant behaviour.

I don't see kindness as a separate and isolated entity in itself. I think truly kind people will have a combination of other strong and unique qualities (ie they may be known for their gentleness or patience etc) - often it's in the absence of other qualities in the person that reveals whether the kindness is creative or spontaneous.

So I do distinguish between kind people (of which there are many) and genuine truly kind people (who are rare indeed).

Hope the sugars have kicked in

 

[charlatan]

I wonder when I wrote "Genuine kind people are very rare - possibly even extinct" whether it came across (or interpreted) as dismissive. I'm blessed to have friends who are kind but in my world, I don't see that as anything special or unique - it's just a given. For me it's the most basic form of social interaction/friendship I expect from anyone

I guess I'm curious -- what exactly does being a "kind person" who isn't "truly kind" entail!!!
I find it interesting that you seem to link 2 different threads: 1) authenticity, 2) true kindness. Does this basically mean kind-but-not-truly-kind basically refers to people with a kind of social conformity...who are polite enough not to get their social names too marred by socially unacceptable black marks?

The reason I find this latest discussion so strange is I actually don't really get the whole societal expectations thing. Honestly, if I were to stop being kind, I'd probably just live like a curmudgeon who tries to understand the universe and jeers at people for being stupid unless they were, say, legal authorities or something --- I can't imagine taking the effort to "appear" nice. I mean, as long as you're not breaking laws, what's the advantage to being "fake-kind"?! You can just live in your little shell and read/think lol

I find the only people who would be advantaged by being "fake-kind" are people who seem to need to be in the societal scene, where they get a thrill from it, and want power in that sphere, and such people I don't even understand. It just sounds so boring

I'm also asking because you seem to be able to be friends with the kind-but-not-really-truly-kind people, and even hold it as a requirement as a minimum thing to expect, so is it something more subtle than just a politically savvy person who maintains face in society by not doing anything too impolite? Because such would be a very low bar to me for friendship. Maybe I'm just more willing to avoid people than most

 

[Flavus Aquila]

I guess I'm curious -- what exactly does being a "kind person" who isn't "truly kind" entail!!!
I find it interesting that you seem to link 2 different threads: 1) authenticity, 2) true kindness. Does this basically mean kind-but-not-truly-kind basically refers to people with a kind of social conformity...who are polite enough not to get their social names too marred by socially unacceptable black marks?

The reason I find this latest discussion so strange is I actually don't really get the whole societal expectations thing. Honestly, if I were to stop being kind, I'd probably just live like a curmudgeon who tries to understand the universe and jeers at people for being stupid unless they were, say, legal authorities or something --- I can't imagine taking the effort to "appear" nice. I mean, as long as you're not breaking laws, what's the advantage to being "fake-kind"?! You can just live in your little shell and read/think lol

I find the only people who would be advantaged by being "fake-kind" are people who seem to need to be in the societal scene, where they get a thrill from it, and want power in that sphere, and such people I don't even understand. It just sounds so boring

I'm also asking because you seem to be able to be friends with the kind-but-not-really-truly-kind people, and even hold it as a requirement as a minimum thing to expect, so is it something more subtle than just a politically savvy person who maintains face in society by not doing anything too impolite? Because such would be a very low bar to me for friendship. Maybe I'm just more willing to avoid people than most

A lot of people seem to like thinking of themselves as being kind, but aren't up for the difficulties it entails. Doing stuff to get reinforcing messages is probably about self deception. These people do kind stuff which is likely to be commented on as being kind.... they get frustrated and give up kind activities if no one notices them.

 

[charlatan]

A lot of people seem to like thinking of themselves as being kind, but aren't up for the difficulties it entails.

I guess to pinpoint it, this bolded is exactly what I find interesting/a little counterintuitive personally. I don't find being called kind a "compliment" that I'd desire even if I didn't intrinsically value kindness. I'd think if someone thought I could play tennis as well as Djokovic or something, that's something I'd take as flattering.

I know it's true despite being counterintuitive (the first part, not the Djokovic part!), but basically I'm just highlighting I find it odd that it's true. It seems to me just a sign of how baffling I find this interest in social rewards. If you can't actually tangibly do something cool that someone else can't, how is it flattering to the ego!? I realize it is to some/many, but it's just kind of odd to me.

Part of the thing is I think of kindness as just an attitude, not a skill. I don't tend to view it as involving difficulties, because if it's a property of your psychology, then it should be natural, not requiring "effort"! I should emphasize that I don't include much sacrifice as part of my definition of kindness, because quite frankly, wishing others genuinely well doesn't have to entail wishing oneself any less well, nor does wishing oneself well involve in some way an implication that one wishes others well only so they give one rewards....rather, it means that, even if I had billions of dollars, great health, great friends, great career, thinking terrific thoughts/learning new stuff...in short, all my own selfish desires fulfilled, I'd still feel bad and very dissatisfied if seeing someone in need/who isn't happy, and would wish to alleviate that unhappiness if at all possible, even if it brought me zero additional gain -- additional meaning, beyond the joy of helping someone. Being adamant that one's needs are fulfilled makes one no less kind if also adamant that others' needs are fulfilled/others are made happy.

 

[Flavus Aquila]

There's something kind of awesome about how kind people occasionally need to be kind to themselves... even if it hurts others a little. There's no malice, just reality: that some things need to be said and done, some differences can't be overlooked, or reconciled... but there's a genuine/real live and let live there. There's a transition I sometimes see of kind people going from doormat kindness, to independent, realistic, non-needy, and firm/strong kindness.

*People are awesome*

 

[Scientia]

There's something kind of awesome about how kind people occasionally need to be kind to themselves... even if it hurts others a little. There's no malice, just reality: that some things need to be said and done, some differences can't be overlooked, or reconciled... but there's a genuine/real live and let live there. There's a transition I sometimes see of kind people going from doormat kindness, to independent, realistic, non-needy, and firm/strong kindness.

*People are awesome*

This is not like your usual. What's gotten into you? Liquor? Someone send you a valentine? Truth time! Confess.

 

[Flavus Aquila]

This is not like your usual. What's gotten into you? Liquor? Someone send you a valentine? Truth time! Confess.

I think you're experiencing the dissonance of not being able to contradict someone you wish to contradict.

 

[Scientia]

I think you're experiencing the dissonance of not being able to contradict someone you wish to contradict.

Nah, that's not it.

 

[charlatan]

even if it hurts others a little. There's no malice, just reality: that some things need to be said and done, some differences can't be overlooked, or reconciled... but there's a genuine/real live and let live there. There's a transition I sometimes see of kind people going from doormat kindness, to independent, realistic, non-needy, and firm/strong kindness.

My personal spin is that I'm rarely "firm" with people, but I'm not particularly brave/tend to substitute knowing the answers to things for courage. As a result, I tend to take the approach: if I'm hurting you, you're probably being unreasonable, it's not that I'm getting tough with you. I don't really get tough with people -- I state reasons I'm compelled (here's the key! I will leave no stone unturned to find ways to a better solution more palatable to the party in question+defy convention to the largest degree to allow lots of potential, so if I say compelled, it means any rational person would recognize it) to act a certain way for self-preservation, which, if they care about my wellbeing, they're compelled to accept as well. If they do not care, then I'd probably not be involved with them purely from the POV of it making no sense to

 

[Deleted member 10171]

I guess I'm curious -- what exactly does being a "kind person" who isn't "truly kind" entail!!!/QUOTE]

Hi Charlatan
I'll give it another go - there's a lot going on in my head concerning this subject (I think about it often).

It would probably help if I shared a few personal examples/stories but not sure if I want to do this now. So I would say family members (mother-in-law / sister-in-law) fit in this category. Mother-in-law is almost driven, compelled to do kind things for people. I honestly think her sense of being, identity, purpose is wrapped up in seeking out opportunities to be kind. She wants and enjoys being appreciated. I'm quite independent so I think she often feels redundant and frustrated that she can't be more involved in our lives. When people strive too hard, it's normally an indication (to me) that there's something else bubbling under the service.....Flavus post says it all....

These people do kind stuff which is likely to be commented on as being kind.... they get frustrated and give up kind activities if no one notices them.

Sister-in-law - on some levels I don't understand her behaviour and grapple with it often. I've come to the point where I just now accept that there are as you described "fake-kind" of people ie say what they think should be said and behave kindly and be seen to be doing the right thing etc.. Keeping up appearances is very real and important in their world.

I can't imagine taking the effort to "appear" nice. I mean, as long as you're not breaking laws, what's the advantage to being "fake-kind"?! You can just live in your little shell and read/think lol . I find the only people who would be advantaged by being "fake-kind" are people who seem to need to be in the societal scene, where they get a thrill from it, and want power in that sphere, and such people I don't even understand. It just sounds so boring

I do think there are lot of benefits to being "fake-kind" - it allows them to control their surrounds/people, helps maintain their insecurities, they don't need to change for anyone, it's a comfortable and familiar place to them. I'm sure there's more that I could add to this list. It feels suffocating to me but I'm sure as long as their bubble doesn't burst then everything is ticking along just fine. Thinking about it - it's actually quite sad and unsettling. Again, Flavus put it succinctly:

A lot of people seem to like thinking of themselves as being kind, but aren't up for the difficulties it entails. Doing stuff to get reinforcing messages is probably about self deception

Truly kind people - These are just incredible, exceptional individuals who go beyond themselves. They are not self-seeking, there are no ulterior motives, it's pure and unadulterated kindness and their kindness exists to bless/inspire people.

Anyway hope you're able to join the dots and make sense of some of these things.

 

[Deleted member 10171]

@charlatan

Oh dear! Too many copying and pasting quotes - my input has slightly merged with yours - sorry - hope you can decipher it!

 

[Sandie33]

Act kindly with no expectations. When you expect a reward for your kindness, you are not being kind, you are doing business.

 

[charlatan]

Howdy and thanks for the reply!

do think there are lot of benefits to being "fake-kind" - it allows them to control their surrounds/people,

I guess to reiterate, what I find odd is how people want to be around people despite not adhering to genuine kindness. I find that very idea so bizarre -- to me, if I didn't value kindness, I'd just not value people. Yes I want control of my surroundings, meaning I'd like to live in a space I feel comfortable, I'd like to have plenty to read, etc, but why introduce company if I didn't love kindness for its own sake? As it happens, I do spend plenty of time with people, but that's because I value kindness!

I guess I'm like, painfully insanely so-last in the enneagram??

 

[Lurk]

I know I'm necromancing, but this is a good topic. Maybe someone else can answer for Tin Man if he's not around anymore.

I do think some of these people exist, but they are rare. If they didn't exist, then life would be pointless for me. That sounds odd, but I would rather not give humanity the time of day, if it was true that they were all jerks. I would not want to exist among them.

Added: I couldn't avoid assisting a POS human my entire life. I mean, someone will ask me to hold the door or hand them a napkin.

No.

No, I don't think this type of person exists. They wouldn't be human, or they would be going through some severe repression.

Sorry? How would they not be human? If you decide that humans are certainly not kind and gentle, then how do you define the words at all? What animal (includes us) is kind and gentle?

Frued is outdated. Why would severe repression foster kind, gentle behavior? Are you implying that no normal adult human could be kind and gentle because that shit is for babies and bunnies?

Even children who have been sheltered from experiences can be dicks.

Sure, they can be entitled, or unsocialized, etc. And children who are not sheltered can also be entitled and unsocialized. I guess I don't see any point to this comment. What's the connection?

So I seriously doubt a person could reach adulthood and maintain a totally consistent kind and caring outlook.

Weak closing argument.

Unless they've achieved some kind of Buddha like inner peace.

Could be.

 

[Tin Man]

I know I'm necromancing, but this is a good topic. Maybe someone else can answer for Tin Man if he's not around anymore.

I do think some of these people exist, but they are rare. If they didn't exist, then life would be pointless for me. That sounds odd, but I would rather not give humanity the time of day, if it was true that they were all jerks. I would not want to exist among them.

Added: I couldn't avoid assisting a POS human my entire life. I mean, someone will ask me to hold the door or hand them a napkin.

No.



Sorry? How would they not be human? If you decide that humans are certainly not kind and gentle, then how do you define the words at all? What animal (includes us) is kind and gentle?

Frued is outdated. Why would severe repression foster kind, gentle behavior? Are you implying that no normal adult human could be kind and gentle because that shit is for babies and bunnies?



Sure, they can be entitled, or unsocialized, etc. And children who are not sheltered can also be entitled and unsocialized. I guess I don't see any point to this comment. What's the connection?



Weak closing argument.



Could be.

Hahaha. I wasn't trying to make any kind of argument. It was just a quickly written thought.

My point is that humans are complex. The post is about Truly Kind and Gentle People. By that I presume they mean a paragon of goodness. A person without a single ill wish against another. Which I don't think would be humanly possible. I believe one would have to compartmentalize any negative thought to become that way. Thoughts of revenge, cruelty or hatred are all natural. To be consumed by them or not experience them at all suggests an unhealthy mental state.

I've met some truly lovely, caring people. But the could also be angry and vindictive in spots. In fact I find very empathetic people to be the most cruel when they're angry. Because they have a talent for understanding others, and they know exactly where to hit so it'll hurt the worst.

I don't know. I could be wrong. My experience is limited and there may possibly exist a person who is only kind and caring. If there is, great. I'd prefer to live in a world where such people exist. I don't believe they do, but that's only my opinion.

 

[Sandie33]

In fact I find very empathetic people to be the most cruel when they're angry. Because they have a talent for understanding others, and they know exactly where to hit so it'll hurt the worst.

Yes, it is a fact.

 

[acd]

Yes, it is a fact.

It's like an evil superpower...

 

[sprinkles]

I don't know if such a person can have meaningful interaction with the world. I find it hard to approach people who are even nearly like this because I feel like I will ruin them by proximity.