Thoughts about society and our place in it

Eventhorizon

Eventhorizon

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MBTI
INTJ
Lets say you have walked through the world and a vast majority of the people around you do as well. For you however things are a bit more difficult. You have to fight for your food, sometimes you go great lengths between meals. You are unsure why this is, perhaps an issue on your end that you do not recognize, perhaps you lack or have more of what makes life more difficult for you. You do not always have shelter. The people around you do nothing to help. They go on about their business paying no attention to you. Throughout this time a single person does occasionally help you. They throw you the occasionally sandwich, but they have thousands. They occasionally shelter you from the rain but their roof is vast.

The question is not in the help you receive from the person, it is a question of relativity. You don’t really get that much from this person however comparatively what you get is priceless because not another living soul would do anything for you.

What is you debt here?

Likewise, a person saves your life, do you own them your life without question? Is it a moral low ground to refuse to be owned in that way?
 
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There's that whole bit in the bible isn't there where a rich person gives more than a poor person but yet the poor persons offering is perceived as more valuable because proportionately they gave up more of their wealth

A hugely wealthy person might pay a couple of million dollars as part of 1% tax and a regular person might pay $4000 dollars as part of their 20% tax

The wealthy person pays more tax but proportionately far less of their income
 
On the first part I don't think that you would have a debt per se, but it is good to be thankful and to not judge where the help came from.

On the second part, I don't believe that there are too many people who would save a life and would expect to 'own' the person in some way. Most people seem to just be happy to see the person living and thriving. I suppose if the person saved would then turn around and do harm in some way then perhaps that would not be well received from the person who saved the life. If they saved your life and you killed somebody they loved or stole all their property then they might regret saving your life and they may wish that they had let you die.
 
No one can own another person....they can think they do and they can act like they do but they don't

Ownership is a creation of the mind not an actual concrete thing
 
[MENTION=1871]muir[/MENTION] Thank you for your thoughts on this. I mean it. But what the "bible" says is probably at the bottom of my list of things I care about.

Its not really about expectation. All of us could go through life devoid of any moral code where we feel indebted to those that help us. I dont think that is a correct way to live.

My problem is this. There is a person who has helped me. What they have given me though for all intents and purpose was not difficult for them to give. Still, no one else would have done the same and had they not helped me, my life would be very different. There are things this family member does in relation to me that make no sense to me. I feel as if I have been helped in someways only to be let down in others. I am at odds because the way I feel I have been let down, I do not know if I have the right to feel that way having been helped in other ways.
 
There is great virtue in thankfulness, even for the little things. We shoudl be thankful for the little things, because always appreciation is good when is honest. If we can appreciate only the big things, then we aren't thankful.

Likewise, a person saves your life, do you own them your life without question? Is it a moral low ground to refuse to be owned in that way?
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If someones saves my life just so I feel a sense of duty to them all their life, its not really saving my life. He is doing it with interest, not honestly.
But if he's doing it because he really cares, whithout any interest, I don't own him anything as a obligation. Only if I want to. If I want to show him my gratitude and my thankfulness, because I honestly want to express my appreciation for what he did for me, that is a good thing, because it is honest. But if I doing it only because I fee I own him something, just like a obligation, that hasn't any value. That's just utilitarianism, devoided of real thing...its just contracts.
 
Eventhorizon said:
@muir Thank you for your thoughts on this. I mean it. But what the "bible" says is probably at the bottom of my list of things I care about.

Its not really about expectation. All of us could go through life devoid of any moral code where we feel indebted to those that help us. I dont think that is a correct way to live.

My problem is this. There is a person who has helped me. What they have given me though for all intents and purpose was not difficult for them to give. Still, no one else would have done the same and had they not helped me, my life would be very different. There are things this family member does in relation to me that make no sense to me. I feel as if I have been helped in someways only to be let down in others. I am at odds because the way I feel I have been let down, I do not know if I have the right to feel that way having been helped in other ways.
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Ok

I think that we have both heart and mind. Sometimes we act from heart and sometimes from mind and sometimes the two are not in alignment and we end up conflicted

I can't comment on your situation as i don't know enough about it but i know that sometimes people have done me harm when they didn't need to and sometimes people have done kindness to me when they didn't need to

Th heart wants to reach out and the mind wants to pull away

How do you square that circle?
 
I agree it's much easier to give when you have much BUT there are a lot of stingy rich people out there!

Depends on the situation but I would naturally just be curious and would want to understand why they were helping me.

Personally I can't but help question people's motives (those that don't know me). I guess the need to know why is a big thing for me - there's something satisfying in knowing that there are genuine people out there that operate purely from a selfless place without any expectation or need for the act to be reciprocated.
[MENTION=8603]Eventhorizon[/MENTION] - If it's not inappropriate to ask - what do you mean by: I am at odds because the way I feel I have been let down, I do not know if I have the right to feel that way having been helped in other ways.
 
Isabella said:
I agree it's much easier to give when you have much BUT there are a lot of stingy rich people out there!

Depends on the situation but I would naturally just be curious and would want to understand why they were helping me.

Personally I can't but help question people's motives (those that don't know me). I guess the need to know why is a big thing for me - there's something satisfying in knowing that there are genuine people out there that operate purely from a selfless place without any expectation or need for the act to be reciprocated.
[MENTION=8603]Eventhorizon[/MENTION] - If it's not inappropriate to ask - what do you mean by: I am at odds because the way I feel I have been let down, I do not know if I have the right to feel that way having been helped in other ways.
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I’m not sure I want to give a great amount of detail on this. Its fairly personal. My problem deals with family, the same people I would talk to if I had another issue in my life. Only now, the issue is with the people I depend on the most the people I lean on.
I am confused about how things have transpired. I have no one to ask about it because the people I would normally ask are involved. Its not something that has been done to me with the intent to hurt, it is something almost like a great trust has been broken. I cant tell if I am the one who is thinking poorly about it or if I have an actual right to feel the way I do. The problem is, the feeling isn’t going away. As time goes on I feel like I am changing, that I cant let it go.

I have tried to talk to them about it only to have walls thrown up. I myself am becoming more distant from my family because of it. I can’t help think that if I only knew the reasons for why things have happened as they have, I could come to terms with it.

I think I just feel betrayed but that I should not because I have been given so much in the past. Its like you are used to getting water but then its taken away with no explanation. If I am the asshole here for not understanding I want to know so that I can recognize it and try to change. If not, I want to know how to forgive.
 
Eventhorizon said:
I think I just feel betrayed but that I should not because I have been given so much in the past. Its like you are used to getting water but then its taken away with no explanation. If I am the asshole here for not understanding I want to know so that I can recognize it and try to change. If not, I want to know how to forgive.
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If a person gives with an expectation, often an expectation unknown even to the giver, then when that expectation is not met the giver feels taken advantage of. They then feel rightous in taking away what they have given and will not feel the need to explain themselves even if they can.

This is generalizing a bit but you seem to avoid details.
 
You sort of describe a terrible situation of dependency there, which I would try to avoid, I believe that while interdependence exists as an objective fact and I believe in reciprocity as an objective fact too, Marcel Maus' gift relationships, but I also believe in freedom and independence and that every individual should make that their fundamental goal. No matter how much of a struggle it is. The state of dependency will be detestable and things like how much someone has to share becomes as important as how much they are actually sharing at all.

On the other side of the equation someone who has much and shares little is only engaging in tokenistic behaviour, there may not be anything wrong with that because if you find starfish washed up on a beach and throw them back each one you return to the sea will live even if you cant return them all, if you know what I mean. You shouldnt be worried about making "little difference" to the point of making "no difference at all". Also, all of the stories about sharing I know of which criticise tokenistic sharing, like Jesus' observations about the rich man and poor woman paying tithes to the temple, are reflecting the fact that possessiveness, materialism, having rather than being can prevent you from really living life.

A lot of the criticisms of people giving very little when they have much, however, I tend to find are made by individuals who have nothing or little themselves and are unlikely to ever be in the position of having a great deal of wealth, it is easy to criticise in that position because you are never going to really be a risk of being in that position yourself thinking about disposing of your wealth. I am not suggesting that be taken to extremes, as I think it has been in some libertarian or capitalist discourse, in which people are encouraged to sympathise more with the millionaire who cant have a second and third yacht than the destitute.

Although I tend to find the most vicious class struggles presently are played out among the, primarily emotionally or psychologically, impaired and impoverished and those who form the classes of professionals or volunteers who work with them and are perceived as being obscenely wealthy by them. For instance teachers whose trailer park students think are living millionaire lifestyles by owning their own cars. There's a problem there because often the critical perspective on affluence only lasts as long as the material poverty does, the hatred of others more comfortable lifestyle is also often coupled with hatred of the easiest avenues to earn money and occupy that sort of status too. The means to a better life are often not at hand but when they are they are shunned as the last possible choice to make.

In terms of owing another your life or indebtedness, I do not believe in indentured labour, it is a form of slavery and slavery reinvents itself in all sorts of ways. Saving another's life is considered ethically just or fine because there is not automatically any presumption of debt. At least I should think so. It is not going to be an absolute bond or debt in any case and the first sign of "you owe me" from anyone who has done me remotely a favour, something I already said I would be at pains to avoid, would lead me to consider the debt annulled and that individual possibly engaging in some sort of betrayal of an unspoken agreement.
 
Eventhorizon said:
@muir Thank you for your thoughts on this. I mean it. But what the "bible" says is probably at the bottom of my list of things I care about.

Its not really about expectation. All of us could go through life devoid of any moral code where we feel indebted to those that help us. I dont think that is a correct way to live.

My problem is this. There is a person who has helped me. What they have given me though for all intents and purpose was not difficult for them to give. Still, no one else would have done the same and had they not helped me, my life would be very different. There are things this family member does in relation to me that make no sense to me. I feel as if I have been helped in someways only to be let down in others. I am at odds because the way I feel I have been let down, I do not know if I have the right to feel that way having been helped in other ways.
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What way do you feel though? You need clarity, I see ambivalence.
 
This is really about something being taken away with no explanation. Not having the right to complain just being confused as to why and being denied an explanation.
 
It's incredibly hard to try to move on (forgive if that's what it takes) if you've not been given the opportunity to understand the unexpected change of events - more so when you say you've taken the initiative to have a dialogue and the walls come up. Urgh! Sounds like a frustrating place to be.

You wrote, "This is really about something being taken away with no explanation. Not having the right to complain just being confused as to why and being denied an explanation."

If you were in the same situation but it didn't involve family members - would you handle things/feel differently about this scenario?

I was wondering if it should make more of a difference because it is family and would you still find yourself in this perpetual cycle of "....thinking poorly about it, or if I have an actual right to feel the way I do. The problem is, the feeling isn’t going away. As time goes on I feel like I am changing, that I cant let it go."

Understandably your response may sound ambivalent due to the personal nature of your situation (so being vague is OK) and not going to be offended if you say, mind your own business.
 
Isabella said:
It's incredibly hard to try to move on (forgive if that's what it takes) if you've not been given the opportunity to understand the unexpected change of events - more so when you say you've taken the initiative to have a dialogue and the walls come up. Urgh! Sounds like a frustrating place to be.

You wrote, "This is really about something being taken away with no explanation. Not having the right to complain just being confused as to why and being denied an explanation."

If you were in the same situation but it didn't involve family members - would you handle things/feel differently about this scenario?

I was wondering if it should make more of a difference because it is family and would you still find yourself in this perpetual cycle of "....thinking poorly about it, or if I have an actual right to feel the way I do. The problem is, the feeling isn’t going away. As time goes on I feel like I am changing, that I cant let it go."

Understandably your response may sound ambivalent due to the personal nature of your situation (so being vague is OK) and not going to be offended if you say, mind your own business.
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I have actually been trying to think of a way to describe the issue and am met with an imperfect thought flow. This generally happens when I try to evaluate something that has me at the center. I recognize I have a stake in the outcome and that I can not subjectively come to a valid conclusion because of it.

I have been out of work for a while. So much so I blew through my savings trying to keep my condo and car at the time. I did not make great choices because I have never been in this situation before. After a year I had to move in with my brother, there were no other options. Eventually he gave me a great sum of money to move out. I told him and explained that money is not what I needed. I needed a place to stay until I could get this back under control. I was told, take the money and leave or dont take it and leave. Though a large sum of money I recognized it would not sustain me for long. I explained this, it made no difference. The effect it had was to put my in great debt with my brother (not that hes ever said I owe him) while leaving me in the same position I was before. He did not have to let me have the money, if he had not I would be in a very different place, still...I had no option but to take it.

My brother has a big house and a family. I can understand how he may not want me there. The money was a way to get me out so that he could live his life without me around. This is not sad for me to think about, it is the reality of life. I suspect I was not the perfect house guest, I honestly wanted to stay out of everyones way though. In part because of my introvert tendencies. Of course now he says, come by when ever you want to hang out. I try to bring this up but its a subject that he wont talk about. I suspect, its probably that his wife decided she didnt want me there. If so, hey I can come to terms with it. Its just that I am not in a good position right now. Throwing money at a problem isnt a solution and in this case I made it clear I needed something other than that.

His house, he should have whatever he wants in relation to that to include my not staying there.

There are a whole amount of issues that go with this, the state of my health etc... Its not knowing why things have turned out the way they did. People have the right to live their lives. I am at odds with wanting to know why this end result is the one that is left and not another though. I suspect not knowing is what he wants and if thats true, he doesnt want me to know why. I can speculate but in the end thats all I am doing, Im not coming up with answers.

See very personal and raw. I shouldn't be in a position where I had to ask for help from family. Still some familys dont help eachother at all. The fact I receieved any help is a great thing in this life. I feel like a crying kid.
 
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Note this was never about "slavery" I used it as an example. If someone saves your life while you do not owe them, you recognize you would not be alive without them. Is it morally correct to then feel your life is essentially theirs? Just a moral question and certainly doesnt have anything to do with me, at least not at that level.
 
It sounds like your brother really cares about you. You may be right that his wife may have played a big role in asking you to leave. He may have been doing the responsible thing for his family while making sure he gave you a head start on a "new life". He may also be protecting his wife and your opinion of her by not telling you more. Of course, this is just speculation but it is a definite possibility. I can only go by what you have described but you say that he has not told you that you owe him and that he has said that you are welcome to come and hang out, it sounds to me like there is no resentment on his part so perhaps the best thing you can do is to be grateful for what he felt he could do for you, whether it is in the form you thought it should be or not. Perhaps he genuinely feels good about helping you out and doesn't really feel the need to discuss it or maybe feels uncomfortable discussing it.

It seems that your concerns come from feeling indebted to him and perhaps negative feelings about the situation you found yourself in. If he is not "throwing things" in your face or making negative comments to you then the best you can do to show him you appreciate what he has done is to take care of yourself and not worry so much about why he did the things he did in the way he did them. I suspect that may be all he wants from you in return. You never know in which way you may be able to repay him in the future (as you said, it's not always about money), or in some way maybe he is repaying you for something you did for him in the past, or maybe he just loves you and he's doing it in the best way he personally feels he can at the moment.
 
[MENTION=8603]Eventhorizon[/MENTION] I admire your courage to take a risk to engage and to put yourself out there.

I was listening to Craig Groeschel over the weekend (coincidentally the subject was about wealth but I won't digress) and he said, "My good deeds must help others in the way they NEED it and not in the way I WANT to give it."

This is often why I question people (and my own) motives because for me part of receiving [insert here the need] is interwoven with my desire to know the real intention or "heart" behind the giving. Not to be taken literally because every situation is going to be different. On the whole I need to know where I stand - I dislike ambivalence.

I'm going to be a little audacious and ask a few more questions (as always please feel free to dismiss as you wish).

I don't know if you said the following only in relation to thinking about HOW to describe your situation or in another context.

What do you mean when you say, "This generally happens when I try to evaluate something that has me at the center. I recognize I have a stake in the outcome and that I can not subjectively come to a valid conclusion because of it."

It might be obvious but what is the greatest conflict/tension in this situation for you?

What do you need from your brother?

Too many questions?!....sooorry.
 
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