Theory on gay orientation origins

[Gerard91]

Ok, so here it is. I managed to type my parents as INFJ (mother) and ESFJ (father). Completely fatal relationship, zero understanding and carelessness of both sides. I managed to get to this conclusion after reading this:

http://www.socionics.com/rel/ill.htm

I wonder how is this related to myself being gay - maybe as INFJ seeing fatality of my parents as a child I secretly thought that making a satisfying heterosexual relationship is simply impossible, so I closed myself. My father is understanding me as bad as he understands my mother so me and my mother made a kind of friendship of downtrodden. What do you think about it?

Sometimes I think that not having father would make my life more comfortable, really. Whenever he appeared in my life, I was getting emotionally broke, feeling useless and pathetic.

 

[invisible]

i have had a lot of problems with my parents too and i have excluded my father from my life and even changed my surname. i had so many different feelings about my father, but although it was good for me to work through and understand all of these feelings, in the end i found out that they had nothing to do with me being gay, this is just the way i am.

 

[Flavus Aquila]

I don't know what the dynamic is, but at least it seems (anecdotally) that male homosexuality is not infrequently associated with father-son relationships in which the son cannot identify with, or feel valued by his father.

In such cases, if the father actively demeans the son, it seems (again anecdotally) that there is a relatively frequent tendency towards transgender-ism; or a lack of identification in the son of his male sex.




(All the homosexual men I have somewhat known have had terrible relationships with their fathers - but are all absolutely adament that this has absolutely nothing to do with them being homosexual.)



.

 

[Satya]

Most gay people had good relationships with their parents. Psychoanalystic theories like the one above persist, but have not panned out. Some argue there is a correlation between parenting and sexual orientation but I haven't seen a credible study to support that argument.

 

[Korg]

I do believe that parenting, and just life experiences in general can influence sexual orientation. I also believe that we can be genetically predisposed one way or the other, to varying degrees. Sexuality is both biological and psychological. When people try to claim that it's purely one or the other, usually it's either to "blame" homosexuals by saying it's something they can control (which doesn't make sense anyway, because most things that influence us psychologically are NOT conscious or easy to control) or to "remove the blame" by saying it's entirely out of their control (this is more understandable, but still just a kneejerk defense).

Agreed. Almost any sexual orientation and/or proclivity can be explained by analyzing early environmental influences. Not explained entirely, of course - but more than some people would care to admit. And the stronger the paraphilia or fetish, the more this hold true because they are, IMO, just anodynes for the pain of trauma.

 

[Trifoilum]

Some argue there is a correlation between parenting and sexual orientation but I haven't seen a credible study to support that argument.

I do believe that parenting, and just life experiences in general can influence sexual orientation. I also believe that we can be genetically predisposed one way or the other, to varying degrees. Sexuality is both biological and psychological. When people try to claim that it's purely one or the other, usually it's either to "blame" homosexuals by saying it's something they can control (which doesn't make sense anyway, because most things that influence us psychologically are NOT conscious or easy to control) or to "remove the blame" by saying it's entirely out of their control (this is more understandable, but still just a kneejerk defense).

Agreed. I would argue it's not as much as some people would argue, but not as little as the other group would argue too. I believe it has some control, in a way. Perhaps like, the key to your subconscious Pandora's Box. But that required the generic predisposition to be homosexual from the beginning, and if it isn't, no amount of parental messup could turn one into a homosexual. And besides...

Agreed. Almost any sexual orientation and/or proclivity can be explained by analyzing early environmental influences. Not explained entirely, of course - but more than some people would care to admit. And the stronger the paraphilia or fetish, the more this hold true because they are, IMO, just anodynes for the pain of trauma.

(All the homosexual men I have somewhat known have had terrible relationships with their fathers - but are all absolutely adament that this has absolutely nothing to do with them being homosexual.)

Going deeper, there's the issue of issues. Agreed with [MENTION=1425]Korg[/MENTION], If we're talking about parental issues, mostly Daddy issues, mommy issues. They can turned into The Catalyst for homosexuality, fetishes, or simply what we would call making bad choices; depending on each people. ([MENTION=862]Flavus Aquila[/MENTION]; I would say the cases you'd seen is more because of considering the possibility gives the insinuation that tend to imply of Elektra Complexes, which tend to be even more repulsive)

Again, it might be too small to bother, or too complex to dissect but that doesn't mean they don't exist. Complex, because people have millions of variables that could change their perspective on life.

Consider a number of people having a problem with their father. Their father's too traditional, too hard, too -macho-; the typical macho dad who'd beat you up for being gay. NOW does this mean they are all gay for those daddy issues? No. But I would argue that it -does- have a role. Maybe one avoids hetero sex because he felt it reminded him of his father. Another decides he won't be like him, becoming the girly kind of gay. Another subconsciously seeks to rebuild his relationship, finding men after men after men with characteristic like his father. Another developed a distaste (or fetish) towards some aspect of his father. Millions of possibilities, one source. But also millions of other variables that could change the result.

In such cases, if the father actively demeans the son, it seems (again anecdotally) that there is a relatively frequent tendency towards transgender-ism; or a lack of identification in the son of his male sex.

also one possibility.

But given the generalization, the flavor of 'homosexual-through-parental-issues' would be very, very, very different compared to 'homosexual-without-parental-issues'. In my understanding, the former sounds like a type of paraphilia / fetish. The latter...not so. :|

For instance, OP / [MENTION=4083]Gerard91[/MENTION]'s case. what you said might 'make' you gay, but you're already gay to begin with. But what you'd described might also be true; a sort of friendship of the underdogs. And it seems like more of 'the flavor of the relationship between your dad and mom' rather than 'heterosexual relationship' that you're explicitly running away from?

(OF COURSE, I feel the need to press that ALL homosexuals are capable of loving, caring, even 'normal' relationship, and not some messed-up creatures from Rainbowland that's sick. We're not sicker than the heterosexual or bisexual. YAY)

 

[Korg]

Going deeper, there's the issue of issues. Agreed with @Korg, If we're talking about parental issues, mostly Daddy issues, mommy issues. They can turned into The Catalyst for homosexuality, fetishes, or simply what we would call making bad choices; depending on each people. (@Flavus Aquila; I would say the cases you'd seen is more because of considering the possibility gives the insinuation that tend to imply of Elektra Complexes, which tend to be even more repulsive)

There are a few interesting articles that explore what we're talking about in this thread. However, when reading them, I disregard two premises:

1) that homosexuality is morally wrong (or any kind of religious argument made against it)
2) that homosexuals can be changed to heterosexuals

...I look at these articles from a strictly academic position insofar that they offer one possible explanation for a behavioral anomaly in human sexuality. That is to say, I keep an open mind - but not so open I'm going to consider moralizing about it. So if you're interested:

Homosexual Drives

How Might Homosexuality Develop?

Homosexuality - An Overview

 

[Faye]

1. Homosexuality has biological origins, either genetic or at least epi-genetic, meaning on some level it didn't matter what you saw your parents do.

2. Socionics is not the same system as MBTI, so be careful not to confuse them. Things valid for socionics are not necessarily valid for MBTI.

 

[Korg]

1. Homosexuality has biological origins, either genetic or at least epi-genetic, meaning on some level it didn't matter what you saw your parents do.

I don't think anyone disputes that. The question is how much of a role does non-genetic (sociological, psychological, etc) influences play? I would argue it plays more of a role than most people care believe, but not an exclusive one.

 

[Gerard91]

Ok, so let me make some conclusions from what you said.

Element of father - son relations - what about using MBTI typology? I am INFJ, my father is ESFJ. We will never have common goal, or idea that would make any positive relations. As far as I am living 19 years it never happened.

This could explain my sexuality, BUT there is one thing we can't know. What is cause and what is effect. It can be turned around and then we have conclusion that homosexuality provokes conflicts with same-sex parent (since we can't understand his/her heterosexuality).

Now as I am writing I reminded myself of second thing - absence of father at first years of age and women dominance. My father wasn't home often before I turned 4 and I was kind of overwhelmed by women in my life - grandmothers, sisters, mother and female teachers. I felt naturally having contact with them. But when it came to having a girl I just thought more about pleasing other people (because they would be happy to see I have a girl) rather than doing it because I wanted it.

---

When I had my first crush on a close friend (who is straight, I never actually had done or even tell him about my feelings, although school staff considered me being gay :S - or maybe I'm just paranoid) I checked on wikipedia or something similar what is homosexuality (I knew the word from TV, gay bashing was popular in news of the nineties). What I read about homosexuality as illness made me emotionally disordered, I couldn't speak with anyone about it (you know, INFJs always have secrets). Eventually I became paranoid and I even demanded people to punish me. Instead of discussing problems related to dating someone I was disconnecting myself from everything what made my relations with the world. Now I don't have any friends, I never made any come out besides my parents (my INFJ mother said I must be wrong ). Her reaction frightened me even further...

 

[Satya]

Now as I am writing I reminded myself of second thing - absence of father at first years of age and women dominance. My father wasn't home often before I turned 4 and I was kind of overwhelmed by women in my life - grandmothers, sisters, mother and female teachers. I felt naturally having contact with them. But when it came to having a girl I just thought more about pleasing other people (because they would be happy to see I have a girl) rather than doing it because I wanted it.

How come you turned out gay and other males who were raised by their mothers in female dominated homes turned out heterosexual?

 

[Lark]

Most gay people had good relationships with their parents. Psychoanalystic theories like the one above persist, but have not panned out. Some argue there is a correlation between parenting and sexual orientation but I haven't seen a credible study to support that argument.

Just because it is not true in all instances or even most instances does not mean it is not true in some instances and I think the theory is still credible, at least as credible as some of the others, I personally believe that something like homosexuality, or other sexual behaviours, could have multiple explanations or causations. As multiple as there are people practicing it.

I fail to see what evolutionary explanation there is, other than perhaps taking a particular recessive gene set out of the gene pool and sparing future generations it as an inheritance. Although find an explanation for homosexuality, beyond a vague people pleasing "its all good" and you will find someone eager to attack it as discriminatory and oppressive etc.

Biological explanations, such as excesses of female hormones while a male child is in the womb, sound to certain ears like "birth defects", cultural explanations are not considered "natural enough" or to imply a disparity or lack of equality with heterosexuality in its origins.

 

[Lark]

How come you turned out gay and other males who were raised by their mothers in female dominated homes turned out heterosexual?

There was a more powerful influence than parenting and family culture, that's not unusual, its a little like asking why does one family member become an alcoholic or criminal with the others do not.

 

[VH]

Ok, so here it is. I managed to type my parents as INFJ (mother) and ESFJ (father). Completely fatal relationship, zero understanding and carelessness of both sides. I managed to get to this conclusion after reading this:

http://www.socionics.com/rel/ill.htm

You do realize that in Socionics, INFj is the MBTI equivalent of INFP (Fi + Ne)? Your theory is based on the assumption that your parents are ESFJ (Fe + Si) and INFP (Fi + Ne), not INFJ (Ni + Fe).

Homosexuality is genetic and in proportion to overpopulation.

 

[Trifoilum]

There are a few interesting articles that explore what we're talking about in this thread. However, when reading them, I disregard two premises:

1) that homosexuality is morally wrong (or any kind of religious argument made against it)
2) that homosexuals can be changed to heterosexuals

...I look at these articles from a strictly academic position insofar that they offer one possible explanation for a behavioral anomaly in human sexuality. That is to say, I keep an open mind - but not so open I'm going to consider moralizing about it. So if you're interested:

Homosexual Drives

How Might Homosexuality Develop?

Homosexuality - An Overview

They are good articles, IMO; they have good theories and reasonable (and perhaps, in some cases, real) arguments, yet eerily scary and wrong in their basis and assumption. Release the moral judgment, and they could be a great article for therapy.

They seems to work under the assumption that NORMAL condition were always heterosexual.

Thank you.

Ok, so let me make some conclusions from what you said.

Element of father - son relations - what about using MBTI typology? I am INFJ, my father is ESFJ. We will never have common goal, or idea that would make any positive relations. As far as I am living 19 years it never happened.

This could explain my sexuality, BUT there is one thing we can't know. What is cause and what is effect. It can be turned around and then we have conclusion that homosexuality provokes conflicts with same-sex parent (since we can't understand his/her heterosexuality).

It can be, It can be not. I don't question your condition, but the causal....it could be. It may be a feeling of isolation, of lacking understanding; in every case. Add that people are generally bombarded with tales of heterosexual couplings and families, and the lack of understanding is intensified. Especially if you're not coming out to them, the isolation are increasing.

Now as I am writing I reminded myself of second thing - absence of father at first years of age and women dominance. My father wasn't home often before I turned 4 and I was kind of overwhelmed by women in my life - grandmothers, sisters, mother and female teachers. I felt naturally having contact with them. But when it came to having a girl I just thought more about pleasing other people (because they would be happy to see I have a girl) rather than doing it because I wanted it.

I have the same condition too, and I am gay myself, so I cannot say anything about whether it's true or not.
I'll raise the possibility that it has a -cause- in how you are made, your personality, maybe even your INFJness (like it may have effect on mine).
I'm sure if you're gay in the beginning, you're gay indeed. If things change, you're going to be a different person, but will still be gay. :|

When I had my first crush on a close friend (who is straight, I never actually had done or even tell him about my feelings, although school staff considered me being gay :S - or maybe I'm just paranoid) I checked on wikipedia or something similar what is homosexuality (I knew the word from TV, gay bashing was popular in news of the nineties). What I read about homosexuality as illness made me emotionally disordered, I couldn't speak with anyone about it (you know, INFJs always have secrets). Eventually I became paranoid and I even demanded people to punish me. Instead of discussing problems related to dating someone I was disconnecting myself from everything what made my relations with the world. Now I don't have any friends, I never made any come out besides my parents (my INFJ mother said I must be wrong ). Her reaction frightened me even further...

*hugs* you're not wrong, sir, you aren't. Don't feel bad about yourself. (and well, I guess it's kinda like some rite for gays to fell for your straight friend? *laugh*)

What are you looking for? The way I see it, you're looking for legitimate reason / approval , either to punish yourself of your homosexuality or finding blame, and please DON'T.

I understand her reaction must have brought more fear. But it's her opinion, not the fact. It's not her fault as it wasnt yours; it's just the way it is.

You'll find people who'll accept you here--anywhere, really.

 

[slant]

I am totally disgusted with this thread.

 

[Korg]

I am totally disgusted with this thread.

Feeler.

 

[the]

I had a pretty horrible relationship with my father until I moved out. I grew up to be a straight.

 

[Faye]

I don't think anyone disputes that. The question is how much of a role does non-genetic (sociological, psychological, etc) influences play? I would argue it plays more of a role than most people care believe, but not an exclusive one.

Tons of people dispute it. I had an argument with my high school health class teacher about it because he insisted that homosexuality is only a choice. Neither the OP nor anyone else posting here seems to dispute it, but definitely many people do dispute it; they just can't understand why homosexuals don't choose to be straight instead. After all, how could you not like women if you're male? These same people often propose theories of environment that aren't substantiated, and in order for environment to be a known as an influencing factor, we would have to find aspects of environment common to all homosexuals. I don't think such a commonality exists. I don't think sexuality is entirely non-malleable, but I do think that it is for the most part determined at birth, especially when you consider that particular areas of the brain in homosexuals are different than in heterosexuals (at least in males).

I don't think environment is a significant factor for determining one's sexual orientation.

 

[detectivepope]

Homosexuality is in its base state already present at birth, but there are also men for whom they may have sexual dysfunctions based on negative experience. E.g. Cases of men whom were abused by their mother tend to abandon heterosexual relations due to view of the female sex. I have also seen/heard of men for whom their father was over baring and their homosexuality is a form of rebellion, for which is sub-conscious in nature. In majority, homosexuality stems from physical differences in the brain and a society that allows their feelings to be free.