The self illusion and the selfish gene

[LucyJr]

I've got a lot of his books, I dont think I've read that one, I read his book called the four loves, loved it, absolutely brilliant. I think its a shame that authors like that dont exist anymore and cant command standing room only audiences like Lewis did occasionally. Bertrand Russell too, though he was an atheist and some of this predictions were really mistaken, like the possibility of the care system with home tuition becoming a victim of its own success and being swamped by middle class kids.

I also like C.G Chesterton on religion very much. i'm reading one of his books now, and I'm just amazed at the paradoxes he finds. I think that man thought and breed in paradoxes. He honestly points toward many paradoxes with great humor and irony, even in Christianity.

 

[Skarekrow]

There are many problems with evolution, which is actualy involution. The most obvious is absurdity on any level. Taken to its logical endcome, evolution can not be even argumented.
Then there are other problems. the problem of intrinsic nature, which in evolution is inexistent. Conform to evolution, nothing exist as a form of nature, there is no "something", there are no people, no objects, there is nothing to be considered to have a defined nature.
Everything is whithout aim, absurd and a total chaos.
How is that evolution think at itself?

Lucy…the idea of a supreme being creating all of the universe and everything that is contained within it is far more of an absurd idea (not that I’m discounting it mind you) than the idea of evolution.

 

[Lark]

Well a lot of people misunderstand the self illusion too. Just as they misunderstand eastern mysticism, misunderstand yin and yang, and soforth.


Yamaoka Tesshu, as a young student of Zen, visited one master after another. He called upon Dokuon of Shokoku.

Desiring to show his attainment, he said: "The mind, Buddha, and sentient beings, after all, do not exist. The true nature of phenomena is emptiness. There is no relaization, no delusion, no sage, no mediocrity. There is no giving and nothing to be received."

Dokuon, who was smoking quietly, said nothing. Suddenly he whacked Yamaoka with his bamboo pipe. This made the youth quite angry.

"If nothing exists," inquired Dokuon, "where did this anger come from?"

Awh man, we beat the mystic BS in the west and the eastern stuff sneaks up and socks it to us?

Man this is totally Manhattan Projects!!!

 

[LucyJr]

Lucy…the idea of a supreme being creating all of the universe and everything that is contained within it is far more of an absurd idea (not that I’m discounting it mind you) than the idea of evolution.

Interesting. Could you argumentate why?

 

[Lark]

I also like C.G Chesterton on religion very much. i'm reading one of his books now, and I'm just amazed at the paradoxes he finds. I think that man thought and breed in paradoxes. He honestly points toward many paradoxes with great humor and irony, even in Christianity.

Chesterton had a debate with GB Shaw, it was distributionism ("three acres and a cow", early idea for redistribution of wealth creating assets based welfare) versus socialism, Ray Bradbury loved it, I got a copy of it from a weird, possibly crypto-fascist phamphlet group based in the UK.

If you ever get a chance to read Chesterton's orthodoxy its good, the guy ripped Neitsche a new one.

 

[LucyJr]

Chesterton had a debate with GB Shaw, it was distributionism ("three acres and a cow", early idea for redistribution of wealth creating assets based welfare) versus socialism, Ray Bradbury loved it, I got a copy of it from a weird, possibly crypto-fascist phamphlet group based in the UK.

If you ever get a chance to read Chesterton's orthodoxy its good, the guy ripped Neitsche a new one.

That's the book i'm reading now. Its great, but I have to take it slowly because it can be quite complex in some places.

 

[Skarekrow]

Interesting. Could you argumentate why?

There are quite a few arguments that one could use….are you sure you want to go down this road Lucy? I don’t wish to discount your beliefs…but discounting the possibility of evolution if far more illogical than the belief in a supreme being.
We can debate if you wish…just know that I do believe in a God myself…maybe not the same type of God that you do…I also fully believe that evolution can easily go hand in hand with what the Bible teaches if one doesn’t take it too literally.

 

[Lark]

That's the book i'm reading now. Its great, but I have to take it slowly because it can be quite complex in some places.

Yeah, its dull and difficult at times too but good points you know.

Him and Hilaire Belloc were ahead of their time in some ways, a product of their time in others (the whole three acres and a cow thing) but they are worth a read and undeservedly forgotten I think. Bellocs books on the crusades, heresy, other stuff like that are interesting, its interesting that at the time when everyone was panicking about communism Belloc was saying it was all a drop in the ocean, give it time and it'd pass into history and be forgot about, the conflict between christians and muslims wouldnt, he seems to have been right about that one.

Also Belloc wrote a great book called the Servile State, US fiscal and cultural conservatives love it but I'm not sure how Belloc would've felt about that since he considered himself an anti-capitalist and left of centre through and through, its about how the meetin of capitalism and socialism created a third mutant sort of society which isnt pleasing to either capitalists or socialists and isnt either, I'm pretty sure Belloc thought neither were attainable anyway, certainly neither were desirable from his perspective but his main grievance, and its probably fair, is that the welfare system instituted the expectation that one part of the population work to support another, he thought that was tantamount to slavery, bare in mind it was the days of full employment and it did mean work, often hard manual labour, rather than simply pay some taxes from the millions and millions of windfall bonuses you made gambling on stocks.

Belloc's ideas were about independence for all through a redistribution of material or asset wealth, so some kind of attainable self-sufficiency or self-subsistence would be anyone's goal rather than benefits.

 

[LucyJr]

There are quite a few arguments that one could use….are you sure you want to go down this road Lucy? I don’t wish to discount your beliefs…but discounting the possibility of evolution if far more illogical than the belief in a supreme being.
We can debate if you wish…just know that I do believe in a God myself…maybe not the same type of God that you do…I also fully believe that evolution can easily go hand in hand with what the Bible teaches if one doesn’t take it too literally.

I would love to, seriously.
I'm a bit surprised, because I think evolution is worse than magic. I mean, in magic, you got the magician and the stick, in evolution you got nothing.
I think the idea of Creator is compatible with basic logic and common-sense, and evolution is against logic and common-sene, and its also worse than magic, than unicorns, than whatever you like. Its just so absurd. Even in miracles you got the miracle-maker, but in evolution, miracles just happen "naturaly". like it is said, you need alot ALOT more faith to believe evolution is true than to believe that a God exist.

 

[Lark]

I love you guys but I think the cat needs to come back.

 

[Lark]

I would love to, seriously.
I'm a bit surprised, because I think evolution is worse than magic. I mean, in magic, you got the magician and the stick, in evolution you got nothing.
I think the idea of Creator is compatible with basic logic and common-sense, and evolution is against logic and common-sene, and its also worse than magic, than unicorns, than whatever you like. Its just so absurd. Even in miracles you got the miracle-maker, but in evolution, miracles just happen "naturaly". like it is said, you need alot ALOT more faith to believe evolution is true than to believe that a God exist.

Yeah but man can create but only God could create something which apparently spontaneously evolves and improves upon itself autonomously, which is more flattering to God? Evolution are creationism? Creationism is more like the work of man than the work of God.

 

[LucyJr]

Yeah but man can create but only God could create something which apparently spontaneously evolves and improves upon itself autonomously, which is more flattering to God? Evolution are creationism? Creationism is more like the work of man than the work of God.

yeh, but evolutionists don't have the premise of God, as the fuel-giver of evolution. They say its just evolution.

 

[Skarekrow]

I would love to, seriously.
I'm a bit surprised, because I think evolution is worse than magic. I mean, in magic, you got the magician and the stick, in evolution you got nothing.
I think the idea of Creator is compatible with basic logic and common-sense, and evolution is against logic and common-sene, and its also worse than magic, than unicorns, than whatever you like. Its just so absurd. Even in miracles you got the miracle-maker, but in evolution, miracles just happen "naturaly". like it is said, you need alot ALOT more faith to believe evolution is true than to believe that a God exist.

You don’t really need that much faith Lucy to believe in evolution…there if far more evidence of evolution than there is of a God with all knowledge and power.
I don’t understand why evolution and the Bible cannot go hand in hand though…the Bible says that God created man…but it doesn’t explain how he did so…just that he made us from the “earth” which could mean we once started as microbes in the mud.
The first argument would be Occam’s Razor…that the simplest explanation is often the most likely.
The idea with the fewest assumptions should be the first selection. This is proven via mathematics which I can provide if you wish but it is rather in-depth.
The second goes hand in hand with Occam’s Razor - The analogy of Russell’s Teapot argues that the burden of proof for the existence of God lies with the theist rather than the atheist.
Can you give me proof for the existence of God Lucy other than your own faith and the Bible which is full of contradictory and unprovable passages?

 

[Skarekrow]

Going to go make dinner…lol…but I would love to continue this debate!
Will catch up to you in a couple hours Lucy!

 

[say what]

Looking forward to reading the progression of this thread- I think it'll be extremely interesting.
[MENTION=9401]LucyJr[/MENTION] - I have to say, I don't often agree with you on a lot of thing, or agree with the literature you post that supports your claims - but I do enjoy reading it and considering opposing views. I'm a strong and rigid believer in evolution, so I'm interested in how you would make a logical argument for it. As [MENTION=5045]Skarekrow[/MENTION] said, it seems much more plausible that evolution occurred- but perhaps that's just because I know more about it.
[MENTION=4115]Lark[/MENTION] : where do you fall?

 

[say what]

yeh, but evolutionists don't have the premise of God, as the fuel-giver of evolution. They say its just evolution.

Do you mean that evolutionists don't believe that God exists? Or that God pushes evolution? Why can't evolution be the work of God?

 

[DonTaushMe]

I read the title of this thread "self illusion and selfie generation" I was wondering why the fuck you guys were talking about evolution lol my bad.

 

[LucyJr]

Do you mean that evolutionists don't believe that God exists? Or that God pushes evolution? Why can't evolution be the work of God?

Evolution can be the work of God. But my problem is not with theistic evolution, but with simple evolution, left by itself, thousands of years, and miracles happen. The way I see things, evolution is a story for big childrens (aka adults).

 

[LucyJr]

You don’t really need that much faith Lucy to believe in evolution…there if far more evidence of evolution than there is of a God with all knowledge and power.
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I disagree with you. I think there are litlle if none evidences for evolution, you say there are...one of us is wrong then.
As for God, this is different, because God can not be seen, tested into some kind of laboratory, and evidenced somehow in a concrete way.
But there are arguments for the existence of a God. Its like the sun...by Him, God, we can see and make sense of existence and all things...whithout Him, absurd and non-sense is written on everything.

I don’t understand why evolution and the Bible cannot go hand in hand though…the Bible says that God created man…but it doesn’t explain how he did so…just that he made us from the “earth” which could mean we once started as microbes in the mud.

I don't have problems with theistic evolution. I think God could use such a mechanism. But still I don't think He ever used.

The first argument would be Occam’s Razor…that the simplest explanation is often the most likely.
The idea with the fewest assumptions should be the first selection. This is proven via mathematics which I can provide if you wish but it is rather in-depth.

This in respect to theistic evolution?

The second goes hand in hand with Occam’s Razor - The analogy of Russell’s Teapot argues that the burden of proof for the existence of God lies with the theist rather than the atheist.

Sure, but then even if theists doesn not give any evidence, that doesn't mean God does not exist, in lack of any arguments or evidences. "Absence of evidences is not evidence for absence". Nevertheless, the atheist could give some arguments against God.

Can you give me proof for the existence of God Lucy other than your own faith and the Bible which is full of contradictory and unprovable passages?

I think the Bible is the best proof. I can give you some lower quality arguments and proofs if you want tough.

 

[dudemanbro]

What would Lucifer do?