The Quest For Meaning

Ren said:
I really enjoyed your post but I bolded the one part I wasn’t sure about. (This might come from the fact that I speak rather from a philosophical standpoint while you speak from a more theological standpoint.) How do you think the revelation of our true purpose follows from the release of our fear of death? You speak about leaving religion out of the picture but the leap from surrendering fear of death to finding a new purpose has a religious tone, like it’s a faith-based form of commitment. When you speak of this purpose, do you mean a universal higher purpose in which we all participate in our own way (love, for instance) or the fulfilling of our own individual life purpose which is somehow revealed to us as different from what we thought it was?

My impression is that in your view, the release of the fear of death brings us closer to the universal, and closer to each other in all being a ‘part’ of the universal. This would be interesting because it would go against the probably prevalent idea that everyone creates their own purpose in life, subjectively, and nothing else. I feel like the life purpose, if there is one, is more universal than that, but I’d also like to subscribe to the idea that we each have our own individual paths to follow. Maybe the answer is situated in the middle, at the intersection of a cross-shaped path – one individual and the other universal – that somehow allows us to follow both routes at the same time…
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Sorry Ren, I haven't been ignoring you intentionally. I started a response and saved it to add to it. But it's gone now. :(

My new much shorter response is:

I like your view of taking both the individual and universal path at the same time. That's how I see it. Individuality isn't lost after letting go of the fear of death. Let's say at first, an artist paints pictures of whatever. The moon, skulls, boogers etc. After letting go, the artist may still be an artist, but each picture somehow promotes peace, love, unity etc.

To the other point: I attempted to leave religion out of it because such a faith based commitment is not required to examine yo-self.

I only know what I know and don't know what I don't know, so there's plenty of room for refining and expansion. Ta-ta!
 
Life. I think that life is about going through experiences of struggles and achievements; failing, learning lessons, indulging in the glory of achievement and then moving on to the next level until game over, at least that's how it is for me. I feel like I'm playing a game, in which life guides me through trials and helps me figure out more about my existence. Sometimes it's difficult, but giving up doesn't seem to be an option for my character. I feel that because we all have different life stories, we all have individual experiences that seem to plague our souls/minds. I don't think that we are all interconnected, I feel that we just share an environment because even twins manage to have different lives. It's really about the core of individual existence, but we do share an environment so what we do individually will always have an effect on someone else regardless of whether we think it's right or not. Meaning of life to me is just a bunch of baloney which just keeps us aware of other people's stories so that we don't feel afraid of the reality that we are alone and that no one actually knows what they are doing. Oh well, that's the way I see the earth. As for everything else outside of the earth, I have no f**ken theory on what that's about. I guess I can only hope that I will get a glimpse of those things that exist elsewhere in the universe, I mean that's if I'm fortunate enough.
 
AUM said:
I don't know. When I get in my dark moods, sometimes I ask myself what would happen if that we're seeking actually presents itself and what we find is so horrifying that we are worse off knowing? However, I'm the kind of person that treads in very dark waters to begin with, so I'd still choose the "red pill" sort to speak. Though, I could understand why other people wouldn't. They say that it's usually the ones that are blissfully ignorant that are the happiest.

Thank you @Skarekrow for that post, gave me so much to think about.
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The day you choose the red pill is the day you understand me.
 
AUM said:
I don't know. When I get in my dark moods, sometimes I ask myself what would happen if that we're seeking actually presents itself and what we find is so horrifying that we are worse off knowing? However, I'm the kind of person that treads in very dark waters to begin with, so I'd still choose the "red pill" sort to speak. Though, I could understand why other people wouldn't. They say that it's usually the ones that are blissfully ignorant that are the happiest.

Thank you @Skarekrow for that post, gave me so much to think about.
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Thanks for the response. :)

I too can have VERY dark moods...not just in a depressive way either if you know what I mean (which I feel you do).
However also in a depressive way...I was born depressed quite honestly...either that or it had to do with a concussion from falling off my bunk bed when I was around 3.
Yes, I think ignorance must be bliss...it certainly seems like it works well for some people hahaha.
There is also a direct correlation with intelligence and depressive tendencies (not implying anything about myself), actual studies have been done on the subject.
Yes...it would certainly be disappointing and uncomfortable if “Hell” actually existed and “God” liberally sent people there for eternity for stupid and petty shit all while we live in ignorance bestowed by him.
I too like to push my boundaries, and the envelope of things that may make some uncomfortable...sometimes make me uncomfortable, but I never do anything I consider to be perceived as negative or evil or satanic type shit.
I love to read about all kinds of ways reality has been perceived be it scientific or metaphysical or esoteric I try not to limit myself by locking myself into a single static point of view...I feel that your POV in this regard should always be changing, growing, evolving without ever reaching the point many people do where they when they feel they have all or most of the answers and again, live in denial as they proclaim to have an “open mind”.
To really have an open mind so to speak, you have to live in a certain amount of doubt and be comfortable with it.
You have to question your convictions on a fairly constant basis and not let it turn into negative self-doubt or self-criticism.
Honestly I would like to know if there is life after death...and like I said, I’ve had some bizarre experiences which were also witnessed by others, so I cannot just resign it to me being crazy or having some type of hallucination.
Though, maybe those had nothing to do with life beyond death, we only jump to that conclusion in our ignorance of what they truly were or how the actions were able to take place because that is what we have heard our whole lives.
Perhaps we will find an explanation that is perfectly logical, measurable, and something that can wholly be recreated though means we have yet to understand?
I can’t say I will be disappointed if we die and just blink out of existence - because I will no longer have the conscious ability to perceive that - so I would never know in that scenario and therefore have no fear of such a thing occurring.
I think people are afraid that they will blink out of existence and somehow still have consciousness but that they will be forever trapped in some dark void with no senses for eternity, which I guess is as possible as anything we are discussing here - yes that would suck...or maybe not?
It would have to be one of those - get there and see things for me, hahaha.
But even so, again, being afraid of something that would be fated like that is again a waste of your time and emotional energy.
There is a good youtube video I will post up for you about near death experiences and the commonalities among them...not sure if that is something that interests you so don’t bother wasting your time on my behalf. ;)
But if you are interested, it’s quite fascinating the similarities that show up...and frankly have been showing up throughout the centuries, religions, societies, different ethnicities, etc. etc.
Perhaps there is some truth there...perhaps it’s all a trick of our brain as we die.
Anyhow, cheers!


 
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Skarekrow said:
You have to question your convictions on a fairly constant basis and not let it turn into negative self-doubt or self-criticism.
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You mean like turning yourself down just to keep it interesting? :P

Jokes aside, I think everyone is curious about what happens after death, if there is an afterlife and/or what it would look like. Most of them are just afraid or too ingrained in their lives to bother asking or they think it's too soon or they think they would test/challenge fate if they did. But at some point everyone will have wondered, and mused about it. I am not one of these people, but I also won't attempt to shake them up because of it, mostly because I'm not sure I want to know what they believe. Seems there is such a thing as too macabre, even for me!

I don't hold a specific belief, but I have hope that it will be illuminating, a whole new universe (or in fact multiverse) to explore. However, I will not let it keep me from enjoying to live life to the fullest. At least no more than I already do by myself :D
 
Skarekrow said:
Why do we need to find a meaning though?
Is it a goal? A desire? Some deep seeded wiring in our brain? Our ego?
Maybe the reason no one can answer the question is because there is no answer - there is no meaning.
Either that or the answer is wholly subjective to each individual, and as such must also only be answered by said person.
There is no text that tells you the meaning of life, but there are endless ways people have found throughout the centuries...they still come out with new books every day I’m sure.
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Kierkegaard said that life wasn't a problem to be solved but a reality to be experienced. That thought has stuck with me over time – I don't think that by that he meant that there was no meaning, but rather that the meaning of life was rooted in experience. It's true that when we hear about the meaning of something, we tend to think in terms of an answer that has to be given, a "solution" to life of some kind. But perhaps no solution is needed because life isn't a problem. If we can get rid of the idea that life is a problem we may also be able to jettison the temptation to look for solutions (such as, on a certain interpretation anyway, religion, but also science.) I think that's why it's important to think about what we mean by "meaning". Maybe meaning isn't to be verbalized in this case, maybe it can't be captured into words at all, without in the process letting go of its nature as meaning.

I guess the above option would imply that each person subjectively creates their own meaning in life, rather than adopt an objective, pre-established meaning of life. But I can see potential challenges or at least demands for refinement with this view too. If our own subjectively created meaning is connected to why we "go on", then maybe we can suggest that this meaning, though subjectively incarnated in individuals, still has the "objective" quality of contributing to making life worth living. If not, then what makes life worth living is situated outside the meaning that we give to it, consciously or unconsciously. I think that's the debate I initially wanted to spark with my thread: no so much what the meaning of life is, but why we as humans seem to eternally be looking for some kind of meaning, as if it were essential to life itself. I don't think religion is just an attempt to take advantage of a human tendency to search for meaning. I see it more as an illustration of that search, defaced over time by the institution that came to be confused with it.
 
@Skarekrow First of all, thank you for taking the time to write all of that. Really means a lot that you shared your thoughts on this, they are very relatable, to say the least :D

I also find myself thinking about shit like this, you know? Maybe too much. It does take a certain type of mentality and perhaps personality to talk about these subjects without coming off as overly morbid, but for some reason it gives me comfort. Most people don't understand, however, which is why I abstain nowadays in having these types of conversations and just ask about the weather haha

I've also heard numerous accounts of people describing their NDEs. That stuff is fascinating! So you can rest assure that I'll be seeing that documentary you posted ;) You said that you had some experiences with near death experiences yourself, if they're not too personal, could you share some of them? I had one in particular, which was very peculiar:

It happened when I was 19 years of age, and it involved a sort of dream. In this dream I had no form, just my consciousness spread everywhere in the vast reaches of space. I've never taken drugs or anything like that, so no, I wasn't high :p It felt very real, which led me to the question we're having today, "what does it all mean?" "what is death?" etc. The fact that I didn't know how to look for an answer made me frustrated. Going back to the dream: I didn't have any thoughts, feelings or a sense of self. My consciousness was dispersed throughout the cosmos, and I felt at home. From that point on, I had a "knowing" that that's where I belong. Anyway, I'm bringing this up because I think I may have experienced death at that time. If that's the journey that awaits us after we leave these vessels, I don't think we have nothing to be frightened of. Of course, I can't be sure what that experience was, and like you said, we have to be open to other interpretations and stay flexible that everything is possible once we stop breathing. Maybe we just become worm food, or perhaps we're inside a simulation, or maybe, just maybe there's a god that created us. However, the short answer is "I don't have a clue". (That surely hasn't stopped us from wondering, though, huh? lol)

I've also been quite puzzled by the concept of god recently from a more technical stand point? What or who is god? Most would say, "The Creator of life and the Universe, of course!". Okay, that just says what he did, but it doesn't say anything about what It is. Is it a person that has a beard and wears white robes? Is it goo? What is it? This lack of definition of what god is has left me considering that ignoticism is a better term to describe myself than an agnostic.

Anyway, I think I'm rambling way too much at this point, I'm going to stop lol. Just wanted to get a better idea of your experiences and thoughts on the subject.
 
Ren said:
Kierkegaard said that life wasn't a problem to be solved but a reality to be experienced. That thought has stuck with me over time – I don't think that by that he meant that there was no meaning, but rather that the meaning of life was rooted in experience. It's true that when we hear about the meaning of something, we tend to think in terms of an answer that has to be given, a "solution" to life of some kind. But perhaps no solution is needed because life isn't a problem. If we can get rid of the idea that life is a problem we may also be able to jettison the temptation to look for solutions (such as, on a certain interpretation anyway, religion, but also science.) I think that's why it's important to think about what we mean by "meaning". Maybe meaning isn't to be verbalized in this case, maybe it can't be captured into words at all, without in the process letting go of its nature as meaning.

I guess the above option would imply that each person subjectively creates their own meaning in life, rather than adopt an objective, pre-established meaning of life. But I can see potential challenges or at least demands for refinement with this view too. If our own subjectively created meaning is connected to why we "go on", then maybe we can suggest that this meaning, though subjectively incarnated in individuals, still has the "objective" quality of contributing to making life worth living. If not, then what makes life worth living is situated outside the meaning that we give to it, consciously or unconsciously. I think that's the debate I initially wanted to spark with my thread: no so much what the meaning of life is, but why we as humans seem to eternally be looking for some kind of meaning, as if it were essential to life itself. I don't think religion is just an attempt to take advantage of a human tendency to search for meaning. I see it more as an illustration of that search, defaced over time by the institution that came to be confused with it.
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I’ve always liked Kierkegaard.
What you wrote reminds me more of Victor Frankl...and his proclamation that humans can withstand even the worst suffering so long as they have purpose and meaning in their lives or actions.
If the meaning of life IS rooted in experience then it would also be true that the answers would be entirely subjective.
Of course you would have those who agree via similar ways of thinking and ideas that have shaped them as well, and you would also have those who couldn’t understand your perspective no matter how hard they tried because they just have no way to relate.
Is the search for meaning the purpose of life?
Or is the meaning of life to find a purpose the makes one feel complete in some manner they are lacking?
And why do we feel incomplete to begin with?
 
AUM said:
@Skarekrow First of all, thank you for taking the time to write all of that. Really means a lot that you shared your thoughts on this, they are very relatable, to say the least :D

I also find myself thinking about shit like this, you know? Maybe too much. It does take a certain type of mentality and perhaps personality to talk about these subjects without coming off as overly morbid, but for some reason it gives me comfort. Most people don't understand, however, which is why I abstain nowadays in having these types of conversations and just ask about the weather haha

I've also heard numerous accounts of people describing their NDEs. That stuff is fascinating! So you can rest assure that I'll be seeing that documentary you posted ;) You said that you had some experiences with near death experiences yourself, if they're not too personal, could you share some of them? I had one in particular, which was very peculiar:

It happened when I was 19 years of age, and it involved a sort of dream. In this dream I had no form, just my consciousness spread everywhere in the vast reaches of space. I've never taken drugs or anything like that, so no, I wasn't high :p It felt very real, which led me to the question we're having today, "what does it all mean?" "what is death?" etc. The fact that I didn't know how to look for an answer made me frustrated. Going back to the dream: I didn't have any thoughts, feelings or a sense of self. My consciousness was dispersed throughout the cosmos, and I felt at home. From that point on, I had a "knowing" that that's where I belong. Anyway, I'm bringing this up because I think I may have experienced death at that time. If that's the journey that awaits us after we leave these vessels, I don't think we have nothing to be frightened of. Of course, I can't be sure what that experience was, and like you said, we have to be open to other interpretations and stay flexible that everything is possible once we stop breathing. Maybe we just become worm food, or perhaps we're inside a simulation, or maybe, just maybe there's a god that created us. However, the short answer is "I don't have a clue". (That surely hasn't stopped us from wondering, though, huh? lol)

I've also been quite puzzled by the concept of god recently from a more technical stand point? What or who is god? Most would say, "The Creator of life and the Universe, of course!". Okay, that just says what he did, but it doesn't say anything about what It is. Is it a person that has a beard and wears white robes? Is it goo? What is it? This lack of definition of what god is has left me considering that ignoticism is a better term to describe myself than an agnostic.

Anyway, I think I'm rambling way too much at this point, I'm going to stop lol. Just wanted to get a better idea of your experiences and thoughts on the subject.
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Awesome post man!!
My thread Merkabah is the largest thread on the whole forum (yes I am proud of that fact, lol), besides a blog of musings and thoughts, ideas, etc., it is basically a collection of articles that seek to answer such unanswerable questions, in the most provable way possible (at least that is my intention)...there are many links to actual scientific studies that dare to push against the taboo.
But it’s full of goofy shit and all manner of whatnot too.
I try to answer those questions of life after death and PSI type all the way to magic, UFOs and more spiritual things, along with studies done by the science community...not only because I find it fascinating as you also say you do too (rad!), but for me, it’s like the last unknown territory that is yet to be discovered and understood...these phenomena do happen and exist and yet we ignore it because we don’t have a good working model of how such things could occur!
I have not had an NDE....but have gone OOB ever since I was a kid.
I almost had a death experience a couple years ago when some meds they put me on basically gave me a medication induced equivalent of a heart attack - actually one of my thoughts was “I know I read a lot about life after death and study it and near death experiences....but I don’t really want one myself right now!”
I never lost consciousness thank goodness...dunno how I didn’t, or I didn’t have a stoke either....my heart rate was less than 30 and my blood pressure with 220/110...man that was fucked up.
But the only things that mattered to me in that moment were my loved ones...they were all I cared about or thought about.
I can read a 12-lead EKG well enough to know that any moment I was dead.
Somehow, it never happened though.
At age 19 I attempted suicide and almost made it...lol...it’s not funny, but it is to me now personally as I would never do such a thing ever.
I was put on Paxil...and you know how they have that warning about suicidal tendencies and how they stopped prescribing it to teenagers because they were all killing themselves - I was almost part of that statistic...this was 1996 keep in mind...dated myself, damn.
I parked under an overpass in a car lot that was full of old junkers...and my car at the time was a 1981 Toyota Cressida with a big dent in the fender...lol.
I thought no one would find me in time.
I cut my arms...very deep...I actually stabbed the knife into my forearm and then worked it to the side let’s see (counting scars) at least 5 times.
As I waited to die I remember feeling like people would understand...that if there was a God that he would certainly understand the incredible pain I was feeling inside my core...if anyone knew how I felt, then is was surely him - and then how could he ever punish me for this act knowing how I felt...I was crying but I was also feeling peace in my heart knowing that, or knowing that the suffering would end soon...I knew I wouldn’t go to any “Hell”.
Instead I woke up in the ICU...ugh.
Someone probably breaking into cars found me passed out and called the cops, who called the ambulance, etc. etc.
My Dad is passed on now...but his face when he came into my room I will never forget (It makes me cry even now as I type), it was one of only maybe 3 times I have ever seen my father cry in my life.
After a week they sent me to the mental hospital for a week long fun filled time, where I was diagnosed as “severely depressed”, oh fucking really?!
Thanks Doc.
When my Mom picked me up...the REM song “Everybody hurts” started on the radio...and not my fav band, it was perfectly fitting.
They put me on fucking lithium...which I took for 3 months, then began to get weird twitches and tossed the rest in the trash.
Now that I wasn’t on Paxil or anything...I started to feel better and broke out of the depression cloud I was under at the time.
My Mom wrote down a list of everyone who’s life I would have effected had I died...it was multiple pages long and really woke me up.
While I was passed out, I don’t remember having any experiences.
There have been reports of suicide NDEs, some have been positive and some not so much...but the majority were not hellfire but forgiveness.
Interestingly the consensus seems to be that if you kill yourself you have to come back and relive your life from the point where you died (you don’t have to start from the beginning again thankfully!) and the rest of your life must be lived as it was intended before you interrupted the “plan” whatever the hell that is.

Anyway...I don’t have a clue either...I’m searching though.







Ginny said:
I don't hold a specific belief, but I have hope that it will be illuminating, a whole new universe (or in fact multiverse) to explore. However, I will not let it keep me from enjoying to live life to the fullest. At least no more than I already do by myself :D
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I agree with that entire statement!
Totally.
You’re awesome.
 
Skarekrow said:
IIs the search for meaning the purpose of life?
Or is the meaning of life to find a purpose that makes one feel complete in some manner they are lacking?
And why do we feel incomplete to begin with?
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Maybe we feel incomplete because we know we will always have further choices to make, and that these choices will, in turn, define who we are in new ways.

Maybe incompleteness is negative only from a certain point of view. It could also signify a potential yet to realise its highest degree of blossoming.
 
I think of the feeling function as related to the quest for meaning (obviously distinguished from mere interpretation).

There seem to be a few levels:

- lowest = fused with sensory components, i.e. identifying with pleasant sensations and rejecting negative ones

- medium = able to use logical reasoning to alter one's value-judgment. For instance, if one was factually wrong about why one's friend did a certain thing, one might value/devalue the friend accordingly in a different way after the correction.

- advanced = actively seeking positive value/meaning to living, which is to say, not just assigning value/meaning on the basis of dry facts using pre-established modes of assignment. (An example of the dry type would be something closer to mere justice-seeking -- the criterion for assigning value is already clear, and isn't advancing itself, it's just the facts that determine the final assignment may require pondering.)
 
Ren said:
How do we find, in life, the meaning that helps us get up everyday in the morning?
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You've got to have values that translate into action.

What is that meaning, at the most fundamental level?
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"To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women."

Is it simply the sheer fear of death, a purely Darwinian affair, or is it something else?
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It's adopting the fear of death and making it work for you.

Maybe meaning isn't necessary to life?
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Wrong.

Why do you "go on"?
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The same reason that people used to move to New York. To be "hey-number-one, top of the heap!"
 
Pin said:
You've got to have values that translate into action.

"To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women."

It's adopting the fear of death and making it work for you.

Wrong.

The same reason that people used to move to New York. To be "hey-number-one, top of the heap!"
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I understand that you see meaning as driven by your values, but I'm inclined to disbelieve that fundamentally these values would translate into crushing your enemies.

What about the positivity of what you want to bring by being "number one"? You need positivity to be a real leader I think.
 
Ren said:
I understand that you see meaning as driven by your values, but I'm inclined to disbelieve that fundamentally these values would translate into crushing your enemies.

What about the positivity of what you want to bring by being "number one"? You need positivity to be a real leader I think.
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Spot on. There is no meaning in life ex negativo. Then you're just an anti-copy-cat, a shadow of a (wo)man who defines him- or herself solely through negation of others.
 
Ren said:
I understand that you see meaning as driven by your values, but I'm inclined to disbelieve that fundamentally these values would translate into crushing your enemies.

What about the positivity of what you want to bring by being "number one"? You need positivity to be a real leader I think.
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I think that positivity and change are part of solidifying what you've earned, helping "your team" keeps you on top.
 
Some people say there cannot be an objective 'Meaning To Life'.

However I tend to disagree, in the same way I disagree that there can't be objective 'Good' and 'Evil'.

If everything is Subjective everything is meaningless and I refuse to accept that since that way madness lies. There has to be meaning in reality otherwise we might as well go jump off a roof for all the good it will do us.

I strayed from religion a long time ago, and whilst I do feel an urge to have some non-scientific spiritual beliefs I do not believe in a god, and in particular a benevolent one.

And so I have spent the past 10 years formulating my Non-Religious Objective ideas about life and its purpose, without a deity or great plan that they create, whilst still retaining purpose.

So my Objective Meaning to Life is - To Survive. The only way to fail is to die, thus the Meaning of Life is not to be dead.

Beyond that it is To Survive and Propagate.

Evolution and adaptation has existed since the beginning of life (and arguably before that as well, afterall the Stars and Planets didn't appear from nowhere). Life and the Universe has been moving forwards towards the next step. First energy, then matter, then Stars, Planets, Complex Molecules, Single Celled Life, Complex Cellular life and beyond.

We have always been moving forwards and so I see the objective of our species is to keep moving forward, and both not become extinct, or evolve ourselves into an evolutionary dead end.

Stagnation is equally as abhorant as it is merely a step away from extinction, no forward progress just constant state without improvement.

Whilst I don't believe in the idea that cultural always has to progress forward as some do (The Dark Ages proved technology can be lost and forgotten, so society will not always move forward, and infact we need to fight to ensre we don't slip backwards every day), and don't believe culture has a fixed 'path' to success (a conservative cultural has equal chance of survival as a liberal or socialist one does, it is merely about how competant those in power are...)

I do believe though that there is a fixed path to technology, or rather the laws of nature will limit what paths are physically possible and which are not.

It is our purpose as a species to keep pressing forwards in these technologies, bettering ourselves and our species.

I believe we have hit the limit of biological evolution and must then transend with technological evolution.

Which is why anti-science from ANY ideology is an anathema to me.

Also ignorance and self obsession rather than focusing on the greater good has meant I've never felt kinsmanship with so many of my collegues.

I can't live my life without purpose and I can't understand those that do. From what I can see you might as well be dead already. But that is just my opinion.
 
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