The nature of love

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I have always thought of real love as unconditional love. I dont think conditional love even remotely captures the essence of love.

A few weeks ago though, one of my lecturers that I have a great deal of respect for posited something very different. She believes that unconditional love can only exist from a parent towards their child, and all other love is conditional- a love based on meeting expectations. She also thinks that conditional love is also real love along with unconditional love.

I dont agree with her view because it seems to me that love based on expectations will always fall short. Its like starting in the wrong position. I dont think that love is something that can be earned. Respect, honour, approval and praise can all be earned, but all these things are different from love. I cant see how anyone could really be happy with conditional love- there is always a chance that you could lose it and a sense that you constantly need to work to maintain it. And worst, you start with nothing. Unconditional love is the opposite- your start with everything and it is constant. I cant understand how someone might love someone and then decide they dont love them later. This doesnt sound like love- just approval based on meeting expectations.

I see love as a state of grace that you can feel towards yourself and others. An unconditional postive regard based on the appreciation of an individual's right to exist and have life, and their automony and wholeness as an entity, free from and judgements, expectations or conditions. A complete and utter acceptance of an indiviual's soul or being. Unconditional love simply is. It cannot be given and taken away, it can only grow deeper and more powerful. It is everything - not only the answer to everything but also the question. It is the only thing any one really needs to be happy. Love conquers all, it trumps all other emotions and actions, and it heals completely.

I dont think love means that you have to blindly agree or support another's actions, you dont even have to like them or their actions. Just accept their humanity on the deepest and profound level, which means that there will be an underlying empathy for their human condition, and a deep desire to see the person flourish, happy and fulfilled. And absoultely no desire to inflict pain or suffering on the person.

It seems to me that unconditional love is the main thing missing from our world. And yet the only thing we need. It starts from the earliest experiences that a child has with their parent. If a child doesnt experience unconditional love from their parent or their community, then how will they know love? Our cultures are based on meeting expectations, shoulds, donts and rejection of anything that doesnt meet the socially constructed ideal. Certainly most cultural and religious institutions dont help- with their strong focus on reward/punishment/good/bad mentality.

Unconditional love starts with the self- completely accepting yourself and experiencing the grace that you have been afforded simply by existing. Its accepting that you have a right to be here, a right to exist, that you have a place, that you were born whole, and nothing and no one can take that away from you. You were born into grace and you will die within grace. Everything in between is appreciating, experiencing, creating, connecting and loving. But nothing you do can take away the state of grace that you are in.

Once you can accept and love yourself on this level, it is easy to accept and love others as well. It becomes completely natural and it feels wonderful. The ultimate peace

I think this wonderful quote from Meister Eckhart summarises unconditional love perfectly- 'If you love yourself, you love everybody else as you do yourself. As long as you love another person less than yourself, you will not succeed in loving yourself, but if you love all alike, including yourself, you will love them as one person and that person is both God and man.'

Any thoughts? How do you see love? Do you think love has to be unconditional to be real love?
 
Define what constitutes a condition and I may or may not agree with you.

If someone enters into an abusive relationship or a relationship where they find their partner has committed adultery and decides to exit the relationship, yet never denying or revoking that they loved the person does that constitute a form of conditional or unconditional love?

Is the condition simply the revocation of love? Simply stating that one no longer loves the person constitute a conditional love? If so, then how can we differentiate before the fact? As all love would be unconditional until it were revoked.
 
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It sounds to me like your professor is a Biology head. That he or she believes "love" is merely one of natures tricks and therefor unconditional love can only exist between people who share the same DNA. I understand that view and half the time I agree with it. Right now I feel like unconditional love can exist between people who don't share DNA and that maybe we are all connected somehow. Tomorrow I might feel like life is just a huge coincidence and nothing exists but science, and Darwinism, and that all the love we feel is just a big illusion.

Why do lovers seem to instinctively call each other "Baby"? What if at the core of all romantic feelings is just the desire to have a baby and the use of the word "Baby" is just a manifestation of that.

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Respect, honour, approval and praise can all be earned, but all these things are different from love. I cant see how anyone could really be happy with conditional love- there is always a chance that you could lose it and a sense that you constantly need to work to maintain it. And worst, you start with nothing. Unconditional love is the opposite- your start with everything and it is constant. I cant understand how someone might love someone and then decide they dont love them later. This doesnt sound like love- just approval based on meeting expectations.

I see love as a state of grace that you can feel towards yourself and others. An unconditional postive regard based on the appreciation of an individual's right to exist and have life, and their automony and wholeness as an entity, free from and judgements, expectations or conditions. A complete and utter acceptance of an indiviual's soul or being. Unconditional love simply is.
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I would agree with you completely at one point but realistically, there should be some element of conditional love. Meaning that love for self should be a part of love, and not just love for others. If you love someone unconditionally, and they abuse it, self love should kick in to offset the expected acceptance of abuse that a partner assumes you should tolerate because you are unconditionally in love with them. So, nope, how someone treats you (a conditional aspect) should factor in. But as a parent, I expect to love my child unconditionally even if they screw up royally.
 
Matt3737 said:
Define what constitutes a condition and I may or may not agree with you.

If someone enters into an abusive relationship or a relationship where they find their partner has committed adultery and decides to exit the relationship, yet never denying or revoking that they loved the person does that constitute a form of conditional or unconditional love?
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unconditional love. The person has not denyed or revoked their love. They have simply left the situation.

Is the condition simply the revocation of love? Simply stating that one no longer loves the person constitute a conditional love? If so, then how can we differentiate before the fact? As all love would be unconditional until it were revoked
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If love can be revoked then it is conditional, not unconditional. You can leave someone, or exit a situation and continue to love that person. Sometimes people simply are not compatible or some relationships can be unhealthy. If someone is causing you pain, or abusing you, then I believe that out of love for yourself and for the other person you should either try to resolve or leave that particular situation. Loving someone isnt about tolerating abuse, its about accepting that person and still having unconditional positive regard for them no matter what happens. Forgiveness is a big part of unconditional love, and letting go of past hurts and pains. And when you love yourself unconditionally, it becomes much easier to identify, prevent and leave an unhealthy relationship. And also, its much easier to have healthy relationships. People only treat you how you allow them.

Leaving a situation or a person doesnt mean that you have to stop loving them, or even caring about them. Youve simply made a decision that the situation is causing you harm and have chosen to remove yourself. But to stay in a situation where you are extremely uncomfortable or being hurt is not healthy for either party. To wish harm on, excercise hate and ill feelings towards someone that is hurting you will only cause yourself harm in the end. The grace of unconditional love allows one to not resent the person that has caused you pain, to forgive them completely and wish them well, regardless of their previous actions and whether you wish to be involved with them or not.

chulo said:
Why do lovers seem to instinctively call each other "Baby"? What if at the core of all romantic feelings is just the desire to have a baby and the use of the word "Baby" is just a manifestation of that.
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Thats an interesting point how people call each other baby. Ive always disliked it when people have called me baby, feeling like the other person thinks I am incapable and somehow need protecting or something. But yes it is a very popular endearment, and the desire to reproduce is probably at the heart of romantic love or attraction.

Ame said:
I would agree with you completely at one point but realistically, there should be some element of conditional love. Meaning that love for self should be a part of love, and not just love for others. If you love someone unconditionally, and they abuse it, self love should kick in to offset the expected acceptance of abuse that a partner assumes you should tolerate because you are unconditionally in love with them. So, nope, how someone treats you (a conditional aspect) should factor in. But as a parent, I expect to love my child unconditionally even if they screw up royally.
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I agree completely. I think unconditional love encompasses love for self and for all others. I dont believe someone can love someone unconditionally if they do not love themselves unconditionally. It is not about accepting abuse, its about understanding it and forgiving it- from yourself and from others. Its about completely accepting the person and completely accepting yourself. I also find that unconditional love fosters real self awareness and communication, the lack of which are often the root of most of our problems. When people love unconditionally, they have the courage to really look deep into themselves and be self aware and they are able to truly communicate because they no longer have to constantly defend/attack/protect.



I would
 
there is more than one type of love.
i agree that unconditional love only exists between parent and child, but that doesn't mean that other types of love are not valid, or lesser. just different.
to fall in love is wonderful - starting from nothing and experiencing the growing feelings that develop into love can be thrilling and very beneficial emotionally.
to love right off the bat? only with parent and child can there be instant love, in my opinion.
'expectations' (or, as i like to refer to them - requirements) are part of human interactions. when someone who loves you expects something in the relationship that doesn't mean that the love hinges on those expectations necessarily. just that they exist as part of the relationship.
 
Don't try and unwind the biological from the cultural from the personal. That shit is more trouble than its worth.

Accept when you feel it. Let it be known.
 
Hi [MENTION=4956]Asarya[/MENTION]

"I cant understand how someone might love someone and then decide they don't love them later." I have never understood that either. If you love someone then you love them - that's it. There may be times when it is hard to love them, but love doesn't have an end date, it is enduring. Falling in love on the other hand can have an end date and a beginning date. Falling in love and enduring love are not the same thing. If you happen to find both in the same person consider yourself extremely lucky because you have found something very rare.

"If a child doesn't experience unconditional love then how will they know love?" That is a heart breaking aspect of the human condition.

"Unconditional love starts with the self - accepting yourself" and loving yourself. "experiencing the grace that you have been afforded simply by existing. Nothing you do can take away the state of grace that you are in." I agree with this. This is love that transcends.

I agree that love is acceptance, that love can heal, and if you love yourself you are able to love other people. In other words how we love ourselves is how we love other people. I believe this to be true. Love is the gift that keeps on giving. When we give it to ourselves we are able to give it to others.
 
JGirl said:
there is more than one type of love.
i agree that unconditional love only exists between parent and child, but that doesn't mean that other types of love are not valid, or lesser. just different.
to fall in love is wonderful - starting from nothing and experiencing the growing feelings that develop into love can be thrilling and very beneficial emotionally.
to love right off the bat? only with parent and child can there be instant love, in my opinion.
'expectations' (or, as i like to refer to them - requirements) are part of human interactions. when someone who loves you expects something in the relationship that doesn't mean that the love hinges on those expectations necessarily. just that they exist as part of the relationship.
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Thanks for your opinion- I really want to understand other perspectives
I definately relate to what you are saying about the necessity of having expectations within a relationship. The success of a relationship has much to with the two (or more) people being able to rely on each other, support each other, trust each other, and help each other navigate through the world and help each other grow. We all expect things from each other and the world, and the fufillment of these expectations is what nutures trust and makes for a healthy society and relationships. For example- when I go for a drive, I have certain expectations that others on the road will abide by our agreed rules, or when I go to a shop to purchase something, I expect that I wont get robbed. When these expectations are consistently dishonoured, than distrust will set in. I dont think that expectations in themselves are bad (although they can be unfair and unhealthy) in a relationship, it becomes negative when love hinges on the meeting of those expectations, and is denied when expectations are not met. I think that expectations are seperate from love. You can still love some if they fail your expectations, you can still love yourself if you dont love up to your own expectations. And I think that having unconditional love fosters true self awareness and communication, which would create healthier expectations to start off with. Often people that have good intentions have certain expectations of their loved ones that actually inhibit their loved ones, preventing them from learning and experiencing. Or they may try to push them into a direction their loved one doesnt want to go, or not appreciate the inherent qualities of that person because they want the person to embody different qualities.

In regards to falling in love/romantic love attraction- I have no real words to explain that incredible feeling or drive. I have been lucky enough to fall in love 3 times, and each time has been an amazing, blissfull experience where I felt totally alive yet completely sick, confused and crazy. One of the best feelings in the world. I could see falling in love as a type of love (although that is debatable), separate from unconditional love. It can be fickle, it may not amount to anything, it cant sustain a relationship, but it does have the intense power and gravity to bring people together and begin that relationship process. Without unconditional love and compatibility, falling in love is not enough, just an extremely pleasurable emotion that may result in experience, children, tears, or (God forbid) a restraining order.

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And [MENTION=5224]Sadie[/MENTION]- I Love You
 
Vict said:
Don't try and unwind the biological from the cultural from the personal. That shit is more trouble than its worth.

Accept when you feel it. Let it be known.
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Id like to understand what you mean. Can you explain?
 
I mean don't overthink love.

Ex: I feel love for someone. I could sit there and overanalyze my personal feelings and history, I could do all sorts of research about the biological and evolutionary factors, and I may even think it's infatuation or limerence or some such. All of these are good research topics, but when it comes down to it I either feel it or I don't. Simple. Then if I feel it, I express it verbally, through my actions, etc. Reciprocation is secondary to the fact.

Conversely, if I don't feel it I don't blow smoke up someone's ass by making them believe I love them for their sake.
 
I think that many people are seeking reassurance of one kind or another. They might not be fully cognisant that that's what they want so their outward manifestation of that can take different forms.

For example a person being clingy or a person being aggressive might both be seeking reassurance of some kind.

This is where some people will say of some prisoners that they are actually hurting and need love not hate, whilst others will call them 'bleeding heart liberals'

There's no denying that there is a sense that comes like a glimpsed view in the mountains as the clouds part that impacts so intensly that even when it fades and the usual defensive instincts kick in again a person is left with enough residue of that sense that it will shape their views and subsequent actions.

The sense in its purest form is one of total acceptance and forgiveness and gratitude

@Asarya this is as you know why the image obsessed (profit driven) consumer system is incredibly damaging because it encourages people to seek reassurance instead of self acceptance; it seeks to undermine peoples self esteem instead of giving them strong foundations.

People then spend their lives bending over backwards to fit in with the crowd and in doing so not only distance themselves from that ineffable sense but they also take their eye off the more important issues thereby leaving the door open to less scrupulous forces to come in an take advantage of them

Consumerism needs insecurity at its core because if people were totally secure they would not need to consume so much. It plays on peoples needs for reassurance making them more and more insecure with every airbrushed photo of stick thin models with perfect teeth or toned macho men with protein shake filled, gym scuplted bodies, the media puts out there!

When people do something to fit into that manufactured norm they feel a glow of achievment or satisfaction but it's fleeting. It's just fools gold, its not the real thing!

Its the same with relationships. Many people seek relationships to fill a hole and don't realise that something built on the need for reassurance is built on poor foundations. A relationship more likely to last or be healthy, imo, is one where both people had a certain amount of independance before hand and don't require excessive reassurance or the validation from the approval of others

The truth is, that when not distracted by sparkling baubles, there's gold to be found everywhere
 
JGirl said:
"i agree that unconditional love only exists between parent and child"
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I had to really think about this one. I think the lecturer that [MENTION=4956]Asarya[/MENTION] quoted was confusing the bond between parent and child with unconditional love. I don't think the bond between parent and child can be replicated, but unconditional love can be found in many other relationships other than parent and child. Just my thoughts.
 
Sadie said:
I had to really think about this one. I think the lecturer that @Asarya quoted was confusing the bond between parent and child with unconditional love. I don't think the bond between parent and child can be replicated, but unconditional love can be found in many other relationships other than parent and child. Just my thoughts.
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the love between a parent and a child seems to be the blueprint (see: judaism, christianity, and islam, and whatever religion uses the parent-child consciousness-human symbol) for that love to given to all freely, instead of only genetic family.
 
Sadie said:
I had to really think about this one. I think the lecturer that @Asarya quoted was confusing the bond between parent and child with unconditional love. I don't think the bond between parent and child can be replicated, but unconditional love can be found in many other relationships other than parent and child. Just my thoughts.
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I hope this doesn't make me sound like some inhuman monster, but I would like to offer my own perspective/experiences.

I didn't feel immediate love for my son when I found out I was pregnant with him. With my current pregnancy I'm still battling feelings of annoyance over the inconvenient timing of it all though I do not doubt in the slightest I will love this child as much as my son. Even after I had my son and saw him for the first time, the feeling I had was more than anything a feeling of "responsibility". As I took care of him I grew to love him very very much, pretty quickly. But it still required me to get to know him on my part. I did not experience that sudden rush of OMG I LOVE YOU! that I hear some parents talk about. I felt completely responsible for his life and his well being, but...love love? I don't know. Unless that feeling of responsibility is what they are talking about.

Without a doubt now I unconditionally love him, I'm sure he could murder someone and I'd still love him. But I wonder about the validity of this instantaneous parental love that I've heard talked about. I think most loves take some amount of time to manifest, even parental love. But that was just my experience.

Also, I did not experience any post partum depression.
 
Sadie said:
I had to really think about this one. I think the lecturer that [MENTION=4956]Asarya[/MENTION] quoted was confusing the bond between parent and child with unconditional love. I don't think the bond between parent and child can be replicated, but unconditional love can be found in many other relationships other than parent and child. Just my thoughts.
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i see your point, and i think it may have more to do with our interpretations of 'unconditional'.
a parent, i would think especially a mother, has a bond to the child that has nothing to do with them. it's hardwired. that's what i perceive to be the unconditional part of their love for them.
with a partner, for instance, you would have to create that bond, and i believe it wouldn't be the same.
not to say both couldn't be...oh dear if i'm talking in circles now i apologize. i have a really good excuse and a note from my mother...
 
Any thoughts?
My tooth hurts and I'm thirsty. ;_;

How do you see love?
A heightened form of infatuation which leads to babies and heartbreak.

Do you think love has to be unconditional to be real love?
I hereby declare that no one's 'love' is truly unconditional. You won't love someone if they stomp on your foot everyday, tell you what a horrible person you are by the hour, and beat the shit out of your puppy.

I know, I know... I'm a cynic. Can't help it.
 
Asarya said:
Thanks for your opinion- I really want to understand other perspectives
I definately relate to what you are saying about the necessity of having expectations within a relationship. The success of a relationship has much to with the two (or more) people being able to rely on each other, support each other, trust each other, and help each other navigate through the world and help each other grow. We all expect things from each other and the world, and the fufillment of these expectations is what nutures trust and makes for a healthy society and relationships. For example- when I go for a drive, I have certain expectations that others on the road will abide by our agreed rules, or when I go to a shop to purchase something, I expect that I wont get robbed. When these expectations are consistently dishonoured, than distrust will set in. I dont think that expectations in themselves are bad (although they can be unfair and unhealthy) in a relationship, it becomes negative when love hinges on the meeting of those expectations, and is denied when expectations are not met. I think that expectations are seperate from love. You can still love some if they fail your expectations, you can still love yourself if you dont love up to your own expectations. And I think that having unconditional love fosters true self awareness and communication, which would create healthier expectations to start off with. Often people that have good intentions have certain expectations of their loved ones that actually inhibit their loved ones, preventing them from learning and experiencing. Or they may try to push them into a direction their loved one doesnt want to go, or not appreciate the inherent qualities of that person because they want the person to embody different qualities.

In regards to falling in love/romantic love attraction- I have no real words to explain that incredible feeling or drive. I have been lucky enough to fall in love 3 times, and each time has been an amazing, blissfull experience where I felt totally alive yet completely sick, confused and crazy. One of the best feelings in the world. I could see falling in love as a type of love (although that is debatable), separate from unconditional love. It can be fickle, it may not amount to anything, it cant sustain a relationship, but it does have the intense power and gravity to bring people together and begin that relationship process. Without unconditional love and compatibility, falling in love is not enough, just an extremely pleasurable emotion that may result in experience, children, tears, or (God forbid) a restraining order.

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yes, and this is why i refer to them as requirements rather than expectations.

i have found that if i expect something from another person in a relationship, regardless of the type of relationship, there is always that niggling negativity associated with it.
when i see them as requirements and i express them as such the other person (at least in my own experience) is more responsive.
i never assume what another should do for me. (this is what i call expectation) only what i need in my own life to make it work. (what i call a requirement)
it may seem silly to nitpick it this way, and i've been accused more than once of overanalysing it lol but to me it makes perfect sense
 
JGirl said:
well, your tooth hurts - who can blame ya?
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I'm worse when it doesn't hurt. The pain has subdued me a little bit at the moment, else that post would've been about four or five times as long and several times as bitter.
 
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