faith does not equal truth, I'm sorry that doesn't fit into the world view of the major religions. you can say the opposite all day long, but it changes nothing, it only demonstrates your faith. . yours, not mine. .I don't claim that christianity is truth. I feel no need to do so as it is my belief. . and of course if you feel the need to condemn me to hell(not a thing) because I don't believe like you, oh well. .
The man who saw into the future
- Thread starter Yusuf
- Start date
whether our views differ or not, the truth of the world remains unchangeable, and it is up to us to decide whether to follow what our fathers told us or search what view feeds our rational minds.
1. Human Embryology
https://quran.com/23/10-16
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3068791/
By all means, this remains incredibly vague in regards to a descriptive meaning to this biological process. Without modern context (meaning, the modern descriptive concept of embryological growth), the sentence above does not describe anything meaningful. A drop could be anything, water drop, blood drop, sperm, sure. You need both the sperm and egg shell for growth. The leech like structure...is a vague description of a biological form...chewed like substance???
2. Big Bang Model
The earth, and I assume heavens did not even exist during the Big Bang period, these were developed far beyond the first eras of the Universe. Water did not even exist in the earliest eras of the Universe. We are talking billions of years here. There was no proper concept of what could be an "earth" or "heaven", there was just a huge amount of high energetic particles spread over de Universe.
3. Returning Sky
One sentence describing the whole complex process of our atmosphere..this complex system just doesn't "bounce" particles back in the Sky...
4. On Atomism
I'm afraid were are passing into the area of Quantum Field Theory and Wave Functions. Even if the Quran states that there are things smaller than the atom, it doesn't specify the Quantum characteristics that describe these subatomic particles (read, these are not particles or parts). Which is a whole other scientific field than atomic science...so yeah...
The point is, the Quran has have some vague descriptors based on whatever scientist, etc. have theorised or discovered in that time on any field.
It predicts nothing that has or had yet to be proven beyond the time that the Quran had been written. One or more sentences do not describe phenomena that demands, as you stated,
multiple books to even describe the basic understanding of the subject.
https://quran.com/23/10-16
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3068791/
By all means, this remains incredibly vague in regards to a descriptive meaning to this biological process. Without modern context (meaning, the modern descriptive concept of embryological growth), the sentence above does not describe anything meaningful. A drop could be anything, water drop, blood drop, sperm, sure. You need both the sperm and egg shell for growth. The leech like structure...is a vague description of a biological form...chewed like substance???
2. Big Bang Model
The earth, and I assume heavens did not even exist during the Big Bang period, these were developed far beyond the first eras of the Universe. Water did not even exist in the earliest eras of the Universe. We are talking billions of years here. There was no proper concept of what could be an "earth" or "heaven", there was just a huge amount of high energetic particles spread over de Universe.
3. Returning Sky
One sentence describing the whole complex process of our atmosphere..this complex system just doesn't "bounce" particles back in the Sky...
4. On Atomism
I'm afraid were are passing into the area of Quantum Field Theory and Wave Functions. Even if the Quran states that there are things smaller than the atom, it doesn't specify the Quantum characteristics that describe these subatomic particles (read, these are not particles or parts). Which is a whole other scientific field than atomic science...so yeah...
The point is, the Quran has have some vague descriptors based on whatever scientist, etc. have theorised or discovered in that time on any field.
It predicts nothing that has or had yet to be proven beyond the time that the Quran had been written. One or more sentences do not describe phenomena that demands, as you stated,
multiple books to even describe the basic understanding of the subject.
Not stating that you cannot have the Quran, or any other Religion as a spiritual base or belief system. But, as I stated before, Religion and Science are their own separate fields.
Religion does not predict Scientific evolution, neither does Science have the need to describe or explain what is written in these holy texts. There is no need for that.
Religion does not predict Scientific evolution, neither does Science have the need to describe or explain what is written in these holy texts. There is no need for that.
I can see you there interpreting it as scientific book again so lemme put it up
WHY IS THE QURAN SO VAGUE?
If you wonder why verses in the Quran are vague and don't 100% show God, consider these logical points
Point 1: God created humans to test if we worship him without proof of his existence
Point 2: If God created humans to worship him without proof of his existence, then he has to give us sufficient evidence.
Point 3: If God has to give us sufficient evidence, it cannot be a strong enough evidence that automatically 'proves' God. The evidence has to be there, but it cannot be too strong.
Point 4: Therefore, God gave sufficient evidence for those whose hearts are open, unbiased to show his existence, but that evidence is sufficiently vague so it doesn't compel those whose hearts are closed.
Imagine the Quran was a strong miracle that was 100% compelling and there was no vagueness in it and it was direct. Imagine the Quran listed scientific phenomena so clearly that in the future everyone knows its divine. Does that make sense for God to do that given the fact that our purpose in life is to worship him without 100% proof? If he gave us really strong proof of his existence, then our purpose in life is violated. We all believe in God and life is no longer a test--because everyone saw the undeniable proof.
Life is like multiple choice exam. If you pick the wrong choices throughout the test, you will be punished; if you pick the right choices throughout the test, you will be rewarded. The exam is going to have many tricks in it to test you. This is like life. Make the right choices. If the Quran was presented with clear 100% proof of God, then everyone believes in the Quran and God. Its like the professor decides to give everyone the answers to the exam--Whats the point of the exam?
The Quran must support ancient beliefs AND reality (scientific facts):
Point 1: If God were to give a revelation to 7th century nomads it has to compel them and has to give them things to reflect upon so they believe in the scripture
Point 2: If that revelation is the final revelation and is supposed to compel people of the future, then that revelation cannot contradict reality that future humans will discover
Point 3: Therefore, the Quran MUST affirm 7th century belief without contradicting science.
And it must be sufficiently vague (read my past logic)
So yes, you find that in the Quran many words are purposely avoided or the Quran used alternate words so it could affirm 7th century beleif without contradicting (but supporting) science. So the Quranic scientific miracles have to be vague enough so they don't compel those whose hearts are closed and has to (at the same time) NOT contradict 7th century belief.
Imagine Muhammad directly told everyone at the time that the Earth is round and that you are standing off of the middle and God has made it so you don't fall off. Image Muhammad told people directly that mankind's parents were primates. People at that time would have considered him "idiotic" and "unscientific" and would have never considered Islam. So what did God do? In the Quran, there isn't a single verse that says the Earth is flat and there are many verses that hint at the Earth being round and there are many verses that hint at evolution. Those have to be sufficiently vague enough so it doesn't compel those whose hearts are closed AND not contradict 7th century belief AND support modern science.
So why does the Quran sound so basic and why didn't the Quran cover extensively the complex scientific topics?
God patronizes us in the Quran. He knows we are only limited to understanding certain things, and that is what he utilizes. So of course the Quran has to give 7th century people something to reflect upon. Its like me trying to explain the theory of relativity to a 2 year old. I am going to sound like I am 2 year old and I am going to avoid using bigger words and complex topics. Right?
I guess we are stuck in an ever ending loop here then. God loves Paradoxes.
yes. I believe he does, and a good mystery too. .
I really have issues with fundamentalism of any flavor, it is and has been the root cause of so much misery. It isn''t about anything other than power and control. the fundamentalist, regardless of the religion doesn't give two shits about anything other than controlling people and property, and advancing their way of life on others. .
Setting the need for control aside, these kinds of interpretations leave nothing valid for debate. One's own reasoning will always be disregarded by the collective word of these religions as it already has been predetermined that these words are truth above all, irregardless of time, place, cultural or contextual background, etc. It's a waste of energy (guess someone was right..).
well, isn't that an attribute only absolute truth acquires?
undeniable,reasonable, and convincing.
this is religion.
listen to this for one minute( you won't understand it) and tell me if this can be false
Why would you ask someone to judge something on its merits if you assume the person would be unable to do so?
It's similar to ask people if they're able to lick their elbow
It's similar to ask people if they're able to lick their elbow
Lol, i was trying to show him a glimpse of that which is beyond understanding
@Yusuf, I do get the Spiritual sense of the Hymn. It's wonderfully sung.
PBS Spacetime (a youtube channel that I follow) interestingly just posted a video as well on the creation / age of the earth, it's a good example on how science is being built on itself by passing on the knowledge to come to a conclusive estimate of the age of our planet (which is 4.6 billion years).
https://www.infjs.com/threads/how-we-know-the-earth-is-ancient.37321/
PBS Spacetime (a youtube channel that I follow) interestingly just posted a video as well on the creation / age of the earth, it's a good example on how science is being built on itself by passing on the knowledge to come to a conclusive estimate of the age of our planet (which is 4.6 billion years).
https://www.infjs.com/threads/how-we-know-the-earth-is-ancient.37321/
I watched the clip, it just made me realize how my knowledge about astronomy is limited, but it was interesting to see how human thinking and science are hugely developing by time.
It also reminded me of a clip i watched today about how Quran and Mohamed predicted that existence is not limited on the observable universe but gives a much broader claim about universe, making the observable universe sound very small.
Another sign which science will hopefully discover at future and show the quran compatibility with the passage of time.
Here are some few arabic words you may encounter:
Dunya: world
Heavens: Skies( this one ain't arabic)
Kursi: Chair
Arsh: Throne
The Seven Heavens, I assume, in this context would be association with the possibility of Multiverse. There currently is no observation to confirm the existence of other Universes, and it's probably doubtful that we ever will.
The Universe itself is, to a certain extent, infinite. As this is currently ever expanding and we will not be able to observe the current limits of our universe. Would love it if we would ever be able to travel to other Universes within
a timeframe of only 500 years. But that's beyond the ability of our current understanding of reality, which currently is limited to the speed on which information can spread around the Universe, give or take around the speed of light.
To surpass this information limit is to surpass the concept of Time itself Whether it would 500 years, or otherwise would be irrelevant in that case.
It is fine, as long as we keep thinking we will surely surpass our limits, as we always did.
correction: can be 500 in light years but no further description is mentioned.
Muhammad calls himself the LAST prophet. Think that means, to him, nobody can say anything against his writings. He calls himself more important than Jesus. God sent His Son to this earth with a mission. Muhammad said he was a wise teacher, but not the Son of God. If He was a wise teacher, how do you not believe what He taught? You basically state He was a liar, but a good teacher. Ominous!
We all have struggles. Muhammad asked the Jewish people to be named a Prophet of God on his way to Jerusalem, but they said they could not do that. He turned and went back home before ever getting there. He declared himself the last Prophet of God. Claimed he went to Jerusalem in a dream. I'm certain he wanted to go there, and I have visited places I wish for in my dreams. God foretold of the destruction of the Temple by prophets. Not one stone shall be left. Even Jesus spake of it, with a warning.
Matthew 24:2-4 King James Version (KJV)
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
My question is, How can you claim Jesus to be a wise teacher and not believe what He taught?
We all have struggles. Muhammad asked the Jewish people to be named a Prophet of God on his way to Jerusalem, but they said they could not do that. He turned and went back home before ever getting there. He declared himself the last Prophet of God. Claimed he went to Jerusalem in a dream. I'm certain he wanted to go there, and I have visited places I wish for in my dreams. God foretold of the destruction of the Temple by prophets. Not one stone shall be left. Even Jesus spake of it, with a warning.
Matthew 24:2-4 King James Version (KJV)
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
My question is, How can you claim Jesus to be a wise teacher and not believe what He taught?
It is important to note that Mohamed never called Jesus a liar, Jesus was a great teacher for humanity, him and Mohamed had the same purpose and called people for the same the message which is to believe in one god with no partners.
Jesus through injil( bible) and Mohamed through Quran, they were not the only ones but they were the last.
(The issue of the crucifixion, death and resurrection of Jesus (Isa) is rejected by most Muslims, but similar to Christians they believe that Jesus ascended to heaven and will, according to hadith (the authentic words of Mohamed), return before the end of time. Muslims believe Jesus was not crucified, but was raised bodily to heaven by God.
Depending on the interpretation of the following verse, Muslim scholars have abstracted different opinions. Some believe that in the Biblical account, Jesus's crucifixion did not last long enough for him to die, while others opine that God gave someone Jesus's appearance or someone else replaced Jesus and the executioners thought the victim was Jesus, causing everyone to believe that Jesus was crucified. A third explanation could be that Jesus was nailed to a cross, but as his soul is immortal he did not "die" or was not "crucified" [to death]; it only appeared so (this view is rare). In opposition to the second and third foregoing proposals, yet others maintain that God does not use deceit and his Quran is proved to be scientifically true therefore they contend that the crucifixion just did not happen.
That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-
— Qur'an, surah 4 (An-Nisa) ayat 157–158[3] )
After Jesus was had left:
In the First Council of Nicaea, human hands interfered with the Injil and turned it the known bible that contains the words of people, prophets, pornography, things that contradict with science and all are attributed to god. So we Muslims do not deny the words of Jesus, we deny the words of those who fabricated the original book.
The Christians say that god is one in three: father, son and the Holy Spirit and to support that they use the example of water that can exist in three forms: liquid, solid and gas.
It is true, water can exist in three forms and its components remain the same (H2O), but let us compare that with this belief:
-A spirit and god does not require to eat, a human requires to eat.
- A human requires to sleep, a god does not require to sleep.
- A human is visible, where god and spirit cannot be seen even with the use of our most modern equipments.
In Gospel of Luke ch.24: v.36-39
36 While they were still talking about this, Jesus himself stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.”
37 They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. 38 He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? 39 Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”
He greets them with the greeting of Muslims: peace be upon you (asalamu alikum) then he starts to eat the fish, to prove to them that he was a god? No, but to show them that he is a human just like them.
As it is apparent, it is scientifically impossible to say that they exist in three forms and the word trinity does not exist anywhere in the bible, but it was mentioned in the Quran:
(4:171) O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, “Three”; desist – it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs.
Jesus never claimed divinity, and it is nowhere to find in the bible a single unambiguous statement where he says am god or worship me, the closest verse is in
The 1ST EPISTLE OF JOHN.5:07
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
But if your read the revised edition by Christians scholars of the highest eminence backed by 50 different Kaufman denominations they say this verse is fabricated and interpolation and it is nowhere to find in the bible.
In fact, even after the book was changed, some remnants of the true message were still left:
- John 14:28- My father is greater than I
- John 10:29- My father is greater than all
- Matthew 12:28 I cast out devil with the spirit of god
- Luke 11:20 I with the finger of god cast out devil
- John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of my father
Islam means to submit your will to god, anyone who says it is not my will but god’s will is Muslim, Jesus never said he is a god, he was a Muslim. We praise Jesus, and we believe he is one of the mightiest messengers of god but we don’t worship him. Jesus said not to eat pork nor to drink wine, we Muslims don’t do so when Christians do, we are more Christians than the Christians themselves.
WITH THE ASSUMPTIOM THAT EVERYTHING THAT WAS MENTIONED IN THE BIBEL IS TRUE:
Quran says: And verily we sent messengers (to mankind) before thee, and we appointed for them wives and offspring, and it was not (given) to any messenger that he should bring a portent save by Allah's leave for everything there is a time prescribed.
The last part’s meaning is that god sent a revelation for every age, so even If the bible is true, it was meant for a specific time and a specific people, and for our time being we have to follow the Quran.