The INFJ's Visual Signature

[Auburn]

@Auburn

I'm curious to hear how your project's been advancing.

Heya,

Um, well we're advancing quite nicely, I think.
We've begun the next phase of the project, which is quite an ambitious one. It is to create a objective catalog of all human motions and see how they statistically cluster together, without using any framework as a starting point. It is also a democratic, and group undertaking. So, whereas phase 1 (or Beta 0.1) was an intentional attempt to decipher the parallels in visual expressions that Jungian Types have, this is an attempt to see how, naturally, all expressions cluster together when examined in detail and in mass quantities.

So per example, we take a video at a time, and break the whole video up into hundreds of clips (separating all individual motions the person does), and then document recurring motions - and label them. Then see who else they appear on. Through this process, we're slowly building a database of all human motions (and their connections to each other) that is objective (As in, not within the brain of one person, but external and each deduction is entirely traceable from its origin).

We currently have the catalog stationed here:
http://physiognomy.me/catalog/

And it's five of us that are doing this cataloging atm, here: (we're always open for more!)
http://physiognomy.me/forum/

This project is potentially infinite -- but we do wish to develop a decent enough reservoir to then begin pivoting the results against neuroscience - to see what parallels exist between clusters of motions and brain activity. And see if it is then possible, by this process, to predict a person's likely brain activity based on their displayed motions. That would be phase 3. Which would require the purchase of an EEG, something I'm saving up for.

P.S. ...I was also glad to find someone else thinks that Tori Amos is an INFJ and not an INFP like some say. Maybe you could read Kate Bush one day? ;D ...and if you also figure out Johnny Depp please let us know.

Yeah, Tori Amos is a pretty clear one.

Kate Bush, she might actually be NiFe as well. But I'll have to take a better look at her.
And Johnny Depp is SiFe. This one I'm certain of.

 

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[MENTION=346]Auburn[/MENTION]
Sounds like you guys have quite a lot of work on your plates. The whole project sounds really interesting. ...it must be mindbogglingly tedious to break down all those interviews but I was really impressed by the visuals in this post and how there was a definite style to all the INFJs. I wish I had myself on tape so I could spy on myself. ;D.
...oh and thanks so much for the Johnny Depp typing... ;D (swoon)
...and for the links too. I'm going to definitely have a look around the forum.

 

[quicurrit]

I go to a particular coffee shop everyday and the baristas all know me. I've been ordering the same drink since God knows when and the baristas all know my order but I hate to be that person who expects people to know what I like so I have to rehearse my drink order several times before I get to the register. Often times Joe, a barista, will catch me "zoning out" and his attentiveness to this makes me feel uncomfortable because I'm not zoning out I am just concentrating on something that seems to come naturally to others. I've been told I can have a very intense and piercing look on my face when I do this.
I can also be very jumpy even though I can see people approaching me peripherally.

 

[Billy]

You cannot type people by their physical features, jesus H Christ...

Ni eyes sounds as stupid as it looks!

 

[Peppermint]

Jesus H Christ, why doesn't Billy read before snapping?

 

[Billy]

Jesus H Christ, why doesn't Billy read before snapping?

Hey I did! the OP...

 

[Auburn]

In contrast to socionics V.I., this is not based in any way on structural physical features. It is an interpretation of body language and expressions. In other words dynamic cues (movements). In this sense it's more similar to NLP, or lip reading.

 

[Billy]

In contrast to socionics V.I., this is not based in any way on structural physical features. It is an interpretation of body language and expressions. In other words dynamic cues (movements). In this sense it's more similar to NLP, or lip reading.

And highly highly hiiiiggggghly subjective. People do the same crap with astrology... oh my god look at how he holds himself, such a typical Capricorn.

 

[Auburn]

[MENTION=1451]Billy[/MENTION] - Subjective.
Beta Phase 0.1 was, yes. (which is not synonymous with false)

Read post #41.

We are not shrinking away from science.

If you can think of a more objective methodology, let me know.

 

[Billy]

@Billy - Subjective.
Beta Phase 0.1 was, yes. (which is not synonymous with false)

Read post #41.

We are not shrinking away from science.

If you can think of a more objective methodology, let me know.

Well my advice would be to just not do it, it seems like a monumental waste of time to reinvent astrology. (unless you can find a way to make $$$ ouf of it, but then it would qualify for religion ) And subjective while not = to false, is certainly = to false 90% of the time.

 

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[MENTION=346]Auburn[/MENTION]
I don't mean to be a pest... (yet I'm going to be)
What would you tentatively type Helena Bonham Carter as.... kind of off the bat...quickly :becky:
It's highly important... :spy:
[video=youtube_share;1cDSpyx2IwY]http://youtu.be/1cDSpyx2IwY[/video]

 

[Auburn]

I think she is TeNi, or "ENTJ".
I've looked at her before once. (;

Also, wanna know a little secret? :3
This is my own personal listing: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/21071359/mycelebritylisting.pdf (not *absolutely* set in stone)
Might be of some interest. So far I have a little over 100 reads, which isn't too much but perhaps enough to get a feel of what the types are physically like.

 

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[MENTION=346]Auburn[/MENTION]
Thanks for sharing your personal list. I do find the whole concept quite interesting. I mean after the Nardi EEG experiment I'd suspect it could be plausible that the functions could manifest externally too, perhaps. I certainly see a similiarity. The ENFJ list was spot on to me, as they remind me of the ENFJs I know. I think maybe also Ellen DeGeneres may be one because two of my ENFJ friends have got that "Oh you're just like Ellen". Sometimes there a little seedling of truth in those. I find sometimes people lresonate very strongly with actors, musicians etc. who are propably their type. I'm certainly a big admirer of Tori Amos' work and often times the same artists I like pop up on the INFJs favorite artists, videos lists, though there's overlap. I know NIN is really popular with both Ni-doms. Tori, Portishead and Kate Bush with INFJs and INFPs, not to say people of other types don't like them. I love Florence and the Machine but after looking at her she does remind me very much of my best friend who is, coincidentally or not, an ENFP. My ENFP husband loves Johnny Cash who could easily be an ENFP, I think.
Some I think may be INFJs but I'm not sure are PJ Harvey( http://youtu.be/0Lg2j0zU1II ) and Fever Ray ( http://youtu.be/-83lft0IABE and only unmasked interview http://youtu.be/aasDUJE6UTE ) . Beth Gibbons of portishead doesn't even do interviews, she's that recluse.
Anyway.. I think what you're doing is interesting. I wonder if I should have myself taped now and watch it back. I just think it's quite interesting... and I love finding patterns so if I have some time to myself I'm going to indulge in some kind of a you tube video marathon inspired by your list.

 

[Auburn]

@Reverie - Just quick impressions from the videos you linked:

PJ Harvey: Si(Fe)
Fever Ray: Fi(Se)


The way Harvey talks about how the lyrics have to be "right" first is very much an Si quirk of hers.* The internal and personal sensational "correctness" of the words is what is fundamental. She also has a decent level of Ne use.

Fever Ray scared me. But yeah, Fi dominant. I'm not entirely sure about Se, but Fi seems clear. Her unafraid and non-conventional fashion is a reflection of how she is inside; a person who values honest self expression despite how bizarre that might be seen by the world. Very common in Fi dominants. :3

I'm not sure about Ellen DeGeneres or any other very famous talk show hosts [minus Oprah] since they seem to have a hell of a lot of conditioning/training which makes it hard to see their true self. But my tentative estimation of Ellen would be Ne(Fi).

*= Not saying that is specifically an Si trait, but that in her, that is the reason for this trait.

 

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[MENTION=346]Auburn[/MENTION]
Thank you for having a look at the links. And sorry I pestered you with them. I'm just always a bit curious about most things. Though I'd like to add that sometimes one may wear clothes to convey an artistic message, not as a personal fashion preference. Her outfits are shamanistic and I think maybe dealing with the darker more frightening areas of the psyche the idea of taking people into these types of musical spaces kind of makes you a shaman in a sense, as they are thought to travel in "the spirit world" or in a sense the collective unconscious if you prefer. I doubt she goes to the store in that outfit ;D In the other interview she looks very regular...but I really don't know. I used to dress up as a skeleton on stage...and it was not because I particularly feel like one. ;D It was as an artistic part of a concept.

 

[Auburn]

Ah, yes. My apologies. There's that too.

I don't know enough about Ray to know her exact motives (plus I can't speak/understand her language! D=), but there definitely is a trend between Fi users and abnormal outfits. Madonna, Michael Jackson, Lady Gaga, to name a few. =P

And, np. I enjoy looking at videos. ^^
If you ever decide to make one I'll take a stab at it.

 

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[MENTION=346]Auburn[/MENTION] That's true ;D Wearing a bunch of steaks definitely qualifies as abnormal outfit wise. I suppose the only difference might be Fi doms using outfits to express their core identities, and maybe if a Ni dom would opt for one it would be to express a Ni type concept or idea, maybe, or some group affiliation. I think It's tricky to tell the IXFXs apart sometimes. You'd really need to scan their minds and hone right into their motives.

EDIT: BTW does age of the interviewee play a part, as it's generally thought the functions develop in stages?

 

[Auburn]

EDIT: BTW does age of the interviewee play a part, as it's generally thought the functions develop in stages?

Well, I believe it's a myth that functions develop in stages. You have all four since you're a baby and use all four to navigate life. Even a 5 year old needs to use their fourth function sometimes (or often) to get by in situations. According to what circumstance we're in we all call upon all four, probably daily. :3

I think a lot of people at age ~20 have already gained good dexterity with their lower function.
Generally whether a person becomes competent with their function depends on how much they exercise it. Like a muscle. Not as a natural consequence of age. Some can go their whole lives without doing so, while others become badass at them in their teens.

As for reading people, when a person becomes dexterous with their functions it is usually their inferior that they learn to master. The dominant and inferior function work close together, while the aux/tert work together in the peripheral of the psyche. That means that the dominant and inferior are mastered at the same time, since mastery of one requires the other. So in a person with psychic dexterity it will be, ironically, most difficult to tell apart polar types.

Per example, a skilled INTP {Ti(NeSi)Fe} will be hardest to tell them apart from an ESFJ {Fe(SiNe)Ti}. But almost always the easiest thing to identify is which functions are dom+inferior. The signals are interwoven as one. The inner two functions are a bit more tricky.

It's complicated.

 

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[MENTION=346]Auburn[/MENTION]

Can you type someone without the biographical material, solely on visual cues?
The reason I ask is because when I type someone in my mind it's based solely on biographical tidbits: In the case of PJ Harvey there was the obvious affinity I felt with what she's expressing (an affinity with my inner world, which is private for the most part). I have been reading many artist biographies and in her case there were specific quirks that caught my attention which made me suspect she was an INFJ, like the fact that producer Steve Albini mentioning her being a bona fide eccentric despite the seemingly subdued image. He recalled that during their recording session she ate nothing but potatoes. That rang a bell, and I don't usually go spreading these kinds of facts about myself, but because I'm illustrating a point here goes: When I'm working intensely I'm so focused on the inner that I have a tendency to neglect the outer and am known to do things like only eat one thing, and that can be something seemingly crazy like Kimchi on rye bread for the stretch of the project.
There are other things like her saying in an interview that she is not a musician, because she only plays and sings when it's for a specific purpose of telling a story. The ISFJ musicians I know are very disciplined and skill oriented. But as the skill she's honing could be more literary...well it's difficult to say. She does the gender switch though in her songs. That I always took as a Ni indicator: Changing the context with a perspective switch. Her early work was exploring that kind of a dichotomy of the genders, singing as a man would traditionally in rock'n'roll (e.g. 50 ft queenie, Long Snake Moan) but being a woman, or being an actual man in the song, or a couple even doing both parts (Goodnight).
That said it's exceedingly difficult to really understand what kind of things go on in people's minds. I just always pegged the ISFXs as more meat and potatoes, grounded types but perhaps I've been reading too many S-prejudiced MBTI forums.

 

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Oh I forgot...
I was going to also touch on the subject of the Ni-Se developing simultaneously. I know the inferior Se in INFJs is said to sometimes manifest in a kind of a lemming, out of control, destructive way in erratic sexual or violent behaviour (@Billy since you seem to like astrology, in my natal chart venus (enjoyment) is out of bounds (acts erratically)... ;D Nah. I know you obviously think astrology is bull... but there are some here on the forum that may have actually quite deep knowledge on the subject and what you describe is the most common form of astrological quackery. Astrology is actually an enormously complex system of divination. ) I can attest that I have personally gone through an extreme lemming like phase in my twenties. I think there is definitely a type of a pronounced sensuality and sexuality which is a theme in some who I suspect are INFJ songwriters, like Tori Amos and Kate Bush. Henry Rollins has a very violent reputation and he's thought of being an INFJ. ...well actually John Lennon was quite violent in his youth, reported to have given an eager fan "the Liverpool kiss" i.e. headbutting him, but he's thought to be an INFP.... so maybe it's all sensationalism to de-credit us poor INFJS...

The Nardi EEG scan however suggest that the Se dom types have a very different brain activation pattern and signature from the Ni doms.

I'm still waiting on more info to make up my mind on the matter.