The INFJ and tertiary-Ti development

[Suraj Z]

Hi all, I'm a tertiary-phase INFJ (21) going through a period of rapidly-emerging Ti which, as it goes, involves a necessary suppression of Fe.

I'm wondering how you guys went/go about strengthening Ti. Here's the deal: I want total power over it. Or at least as close to as I can get. Easier said than done, though, when dealing with something that, as a more unconscious part of me, is less within my conscious control.

I don't want it to erupt too destructively. Ti-overdosing leads to more outward insensitivity than I like, yet I know that'll necessary for the short-term. Being sensitive is great, but it's pointless to think you're of use to others if you don't have power over your own inner well-being to bounce back quickly from life's disappointments.

Is the trick to let Fe run rampant and exhaust it, such that Ti has to strengthen to keep me going? Do I draw it out by force, or do I take greater caution and care with a more hands-off "let it come as it does" approach? What are the short- and long-term benefits and consequences of each method?

What do you guys think?

 

[Hazard]

I'm 20 and I'm wondering much the same thing. How have you noticed the Ti rapidly growing within you? I'm curious because it hasn't started to develop in me yet. In what aspects of your life have you noticed it being used? Perhaps you should focus on where you see it popping up and placing yourself in those situations more often. I think that using Fe is good for an interpersonal approach while Ti is good for a logical impersonal approach to your own life and in helping others make logical decisions for themselves. Both can be used at the same time this way. But please answer the questions everyone and tell me where you see it developing in your life. I'd love to hear and learn for myself as well.

 

[LucyJr]

Hi all, I'm a tertiary-phase INFJ (21) going through a period of rapidly-emerging Ti which, as it goes, involves a necessary suppression of Fe.

I'm wondering how you guys went/go about strengthening Ti. Here's the deal: I want total power over it. Or at least as close to as I can get. Easier said than done, though, when dealing with something that, as a more unconscious part of me, is less within my conscious control.

I don't want it to erupt too destructively. Ti-overdosing leads to more outward insensitivity than I like, yet I know that'll necessary for the short-term. Being sensitive is great, but it's pointless to think you're of use to others if you don't have power over your own inner well-being to bounce back quickly from life's disappointments.

Is the trick to let Fe run rampant and exhaust it, such that Ti has to strengthen to keep me going? Do I draw it out by force, or do I take greater caution and care with a more hands-off "let it come as it does" approach? What are the short- and long-term benefits and consequences of each method?

What do you guys think?

Study logic ! You'll be amazed at how many basic flaws you do day by day in your line of thoughts. I'm not saying you should study logic hard, just something fundamental. The most fundamental is the law of non-contradiction. Just comprehend that and your Ni will benefit greatly.
My personal experience was this: having powerful Ni, pretty powerful Fe... making many erronous assertions. I begin to study logic, and it was just amazing. Just in a few days, my Ni became much more powerful.
When I'm saying logic, I'm refering to traditional, sane logic, of course.The logic that developed from the works of the classsics, like Aristotle, Plato, Leibniz and so on. Hope it helps!

 

[Suraj Z]

Will get to your questions soon, Hazard.

Study logic ! You'll be amazed at how many basic flaws you do day by day in your line of thoughts. I'm not saying you should study logic hard, just something fundamental. The most fundamental is the law of non-contradiction. Just comprehend that and your Ni will benefit greatly.
My personal experience was this: having powerful Ni, pretty powerful Fe... making many erronous assertions. I begin to study logic, and it was just amazing. Just in a few days, my Ni became much more powerful.
When I'm saying logic, I'm refering to traditional, sane logic, of course.The logic that developed from the works of the classsics, like Aristotle, Plato, Leibniz and so on. Hope it helps!

Heh, good thing I'm already taking such a logic class now (and that I'm part-Philosophy major in the first place, haha!).

 

[sassafras]

Hi all, I'm a tertiary-phase INFJ (21) going through a period of rapidly-emerging Ti which, as it goes, involves a necessary suppression of Fe.

I'm wondering how you guys went/go about strengthening Ti. Here's the deal: I want total power over it. Or at least as close to as I can get. Easier said than done, though, when dealing with something that, as a more unconscious part of me, is less within my conscious control.

I don't want it to erupt too destructively. Ti-overdosing leads to more outward insensitivity than I like, yet I know that'll necessary for the short-term. Being sensitive is great, but it's pointless to think you're of use to others if you don't have power over your own inner well-being to bounce back quickly from life's disappointments.

Is the trick to let Fe run rampant and exhaust it, such that Ti has to strengthen to keep me going? Do I draw it out by force, or do I take greater caution and care with a more hands-off "let it come as it does" approach? What are the short- and long-term benefits and consequences of each method?

What do you guys think?

Er, I'm not sure all this works the way you think it does. Your functions all work together in tandem. At any point in time, you're using Ni+Fe+Ti+Se to understand the world around you. You don't rely on Ti to the exclusion of Fe and Ni. You will always use Ni+ Fe, even when you're engaging in Ti-like activities because, as an INFJ, that is your unconscious preference. Everything you do will always be filtered through your function order. The way you use Ti will never be the same as the way INTP's or ESTP's use Ti because the way you learn it and use it will be dependent on your internal function order.

Still, you can sharpen your sensitivity to Ti by doing logical puzzles, by dismantling parts (conceptually or physically) and seeing how they work, studying etymology, grammar, dismantling the logic of someone's thinking (perfect Ni+Fe+Ti activity), etc. However, you don't need to try and shut down/suppress processes that you think are related to Fe in order to focus exclusively on learning Ti. Accept the insights that Ni+Fe offer you; when you let everything develop together, you actually gain a healthier and more rounded, reasonable perspective.

As far as the theory goes, when you psychologically "exhaust" (or attempt to suppress) your top functions, you end up flipping into shadow mode because you end up relying on your inferior almost exclusively. As an INFJ, technically that would be an unhealthy ESTP -- over-indulgent, brash, hyper-critical and lacking focus... which is pretty much the opposite of what you're probably aiming to do with the development of Ti.

 

[Hazard]

Er, I'm not sure all this works the way you think it does. Your functions all work together in tandem. At any point in time, you're using Ni+Fe+Ti+Se to understand the world around you. You don't rely on Ti to the exclusion of Fe and Ni. You will always use Ni+ Fe, even when you're engaging in Ti-like activities because, as an INFJ, that is your unconscious preference. Everything you do will always be filtered through your function order. The way you use Ti will never be the same as the way INTP's or ESTP's use Ti because the way you learn it and use it will be dependent on your internal function order.

Still, you can sharpen your sensitivity to Ti by doing logical puzzles, by dismantling parts (conceptually or physically) and seeing how they work, studying etymology, grammar, dismantling the logic of someone's thinking (perfect Ni+Fe+Ti activity), etc. However, you don't need to try and shut down/suppress processes that you think are related to Fe in order to focus exclusively on learning Ti. Accept the insights that Ni+Fe offer you; when you let everything develop together, you actually gain a healthier and more rounded, reasonable perspective.

As far as the theory goes, when you psychologically "exhaust" (or attempt to suppress) your top functions, you end up flipping into shadow mode because you end up relying on your inferior almost exclusively. As an INFJ, technically that would be an unhealthy ESTP -- over-indulgent, brash, hyper-critical and lacking focus... which is pretty much the opposite of what you're probably aiming to do with the development of Ti.

http://www.personalitypage.com/html/development.html

 

[Suraj Z]

Your functions all work together in tandem. At any point in time, you're using Ni+Fe+Ti+Se to understand the world around you. You don't rely on Ti to the exclusion of Fe and Ni.

You seem to be suggesting here that there's no conflict between opposing attitudes of judging and perceiving (Ti/Fe, Fi/Te) when really what they're doing is switching back and forth between each other.

Naturally the ideal is for the functions to work together over the long run (or to be more precise, Fe, Ti and Se all work together as Ni sees fit for them to), but to be using them all consciously and simultaneously in day-to-day living? The point of the theory is that Fe and Ti are operating at the exclusion of one another on the micro-level, it's just that they can switch back and forth between one another in such a way that it might seem like they're happening at precisely the same time. But that's neither viable nor advisable w/r to optimal conscious-attention distribution. It'd be ineffective and inefficient to use both Ti and Fe at precisely the same point in time.

You will always use Ni+ Fe, even when you're engaging in Ti-like activities because, as an INFJ, that is your unconscious preference. Everything you do will always be filtered through your function order. The way you use Ti will never be the same as the way INTP's or ESTP's use Ti because the way you learn it and use it will be dependent on your internal function order.

Again, Ti and Fe are exclusive of one another. When you're using one brain process (see Nardi, esp. on the INTP's "dissociated [Ti] state" upon meeting new people), the other is essentially shutting off.

I find it very difficult, if not downright impossible, to use Fe at precisely the same moments when I'm exercising Ti, especially considering one is more conscious and the other isn't. What you're saying in essence is that you can use both optimally and consciously at the same time, even though for the INFJ Fe is more conscious and Ti is not, but conscious/unconscious processing doesn't work like that. Use one and you're necessarily neglecting (i.e. suppressing) the other. There "isn't enough room" at any one point for them both to be operating within the same realm of awareness, or on the same level of it.

Still, you can sharpen your sensitivity to Ti by doing logical puzzles, by dismantling parts (conceptually or physically) and seeing how they work, studying etymology, grammar, dismantling the logic of someone's thinking (perfect Ni+Fe+Ti activity), etc. However, you don't need to try and shut down/suppress processes that you think are related to Fe in order to focus exclusively on learning Ti. Accept the insights that Ni+Fe offer you; when you let everything develop together, you actually gain a healthier and more rounded, reasonable perspective.

Ni-Fe have led me to the understanding that I need for Ti to be stronger/within my more conscious control, in the sense that I realize I'll need to learn to switch rapidly (i.e. automatically, at my will) between Fe and Ti if I'm to be as effective in accomplishing my Ni(-Fe) goals as I possibly can be. So while I'm accepting the insights Ni-Fe have given me, it's still not the case that Fe and Ti can work at the same time. But I understand there is a time and place for each, such that over the long run they'll be "working together", or rather toward the same end result.

As far as the theory goes, when you psychologically "exhaust" (or attempt to suppress) your top functions, you end up flipping into shadow mode because you end up relying on your inferior almost exclusively. As an INFJ, technically that would be an unhealthy ESTP -- over-indulgent, brash, hyper-critical and lacking focus... which is pretty much the opposite of what you're probably aiming to do with the development of Ti.

Ti (and Se) aren't shadow functions--those would be Ne, Fi, Te, and Si. The idea of the four-function model is that, for the INFJ, Ni-Fe-Ti-Se are the functions most within our control over a healthy lifetime. The above mentioned shadow functions emerge when even those four "default functions" aren't handling a current problem or circumstance properly.

Ti and Se development are stressful for the INFJ because they require more conscious effort to exert. That is, they require more conscious space to operate within and, to the extent that they're less consciously-differentiated, will eat up more of the INFJ's awareness and energy. This is what I mean by the tertiary-phase INFJ suppressing Fe--in order to strengthen their less-conscious Ti, they need to devote more active effort to it, meaning there's less energy left for Fe to use at the time.

 

[Flavus Aquila]

Understanding things from multiple angles when alone - analysing, theorising, etc. is great - and not from an emotional point of view. If you over-analyse emotions alone you will probably trigger an eruption of your inferior functions.

As has been said, classical philosophy is fantastic for categorising and understanding things. Sitting back and observing the world with a cool-headed scientist's approach; putting things and people behind the glass of a microscope slide/petri dish are what will help. These activities are rewarding and something to relish.

 

[sassafras]

You seem to be suggesting here that there's no conflict between opposing attitudes of judging and perceiving (Ti/Fe, Fi/Te) when really what they're doing is switching back and forth between each other.

Naturally the ideal is for the functions to work together over the long run (or to be more precise, Fe, Ti and Se all work together as Ni sees fit for them to), but to be using them allconsciously and simultaneously in day-to-day living? The point of the theory is that Fe and Ti are operating at the exclusion of one another on the micro-level, it's just that they can switch back and forth between one another in such a way that it might seem like they're happening at precisely the same time. But that's neither viable nor advisable w/r to optimal conscious-attention distribution. It'd be ineffective and inefficient to use both Ti and Fe at precisely the same point in time.

Er, that's not at all what I meant. I can’t tell if you misunderstood me or if we share different views of the theory. Let me clarify.

By 'tandem' I meant that all the functions work closely together in support of one another. Of course your entire brain isn't lighting up simultaneously.

MBTI theory, as I understand it, refers to a unique mind-map which you use to approach each situation. Yes, you're switching back and forth between your functions, and I largely agree with the way you describe conscious efforts. However, the impression that I'm getting from your post sounds more like you're describing function states or 'modes' rather than processes. That is, it sounds more like you're saying that when the INFJ is in the process of using its Ti, Ti jumps to the dominant/auxiliary spot to knock off Ni/Fe for a period of time and take over control. This is not true... and this is what I meant by INFJs not using Ti the same way Ti-types do.

By convention, INFJ approaches the world by taking in local, abstract data (Ni) and making holistic connections within that given matrix (Fe) before establishing linear connections based on specified property (Ti) and integrating them with a sense of the overall matrix (Se).

Even when it's tackling logic puzzles or learning how to use a computer or interacting with a friend they haven’t seen for a long time, this is the process it uses. There is a reason why function order is set up the way it is and why the tertiary and inferior functions are slower to develop. It’s because the top functions are always the main filter—or as you put it, it takes the least amount of conscious control. When you’re developing a tertiary function by challenging it, you’re not suppressing (or even exhausting) your dominant function. Indeed, you cannot. It’s your reference point. Rather, your mind is learning to filter through its thinking more efficiently, integrating the processes that are more efficient to the problem presented.

But no, you do not use or develop your functions in isolation of one another. The way an INFJ would approach a math problem on the cognitive level is much, much different than the way an INTP would approach the same problem and this would continue over its life time—no matter how well it developed its tertiary Ti.

Suppressing or exhausting a function is actually a form of the shadow and is usually a symptom of immense stress or a challenged mental state. It has nothing at all to do with a focused development of the tertiary. The goal of healthy function development is teaching all the functions to integrate and work together efficiently to give you a clearer, fuller picture and understanding of the world around you.

Ti (and Se) aren't shadow functions--those would be Ne, Fi, Te, and Si. The idea of the four-function model is that, for the INFJ, Ni-Fe-Ti-Se are the functions most within our control over a healthy lifetime. The above mentioned shadow functions emerge when even those four "default functions" aren't handling a current problem or circumstance properly.

Ne, Fi, Te and Si aren't shadow functions. They're mirror functions. ENFP is not the INFJ shadow, that honor belongs to the ESTP. An over-emphasis on your inferior function flips you into shadow mode. You're still using processes that are already conscious and familiar to you, only you're doing so in reverse order and that is a state that overrides your usual mental programming. But I think we're starting to come closer to where our understanding of the theory and mine diverge.

Ti and Se development are stressful for the INFJ because they require more conscious effort to exert. That is, they require more conscious space to operate within and, to the extent that they're less consciously-differentiated, will eat up more of the INFJ's awareness and energy. This is what I mean by the tertiary-phase INFJ suppressing Fe--in order to strengthen their less-conscious Ti, they need to devote more active effort to it, meaning there's less energy left for Fe to use at the time.

I agree with Ti and Se requiring more conscious effort to exert, but I disagree that their development requires one to turn Fe off first. What you’re suggesting would require Ti to jump to auxiliary position and be used as a support for data being filtered in by Ni, which does not make any sense at all. There is a reason why judging functions are paired with perceiving functions that are oppositely oriented. Ni already perceives patterned data in localized, component parts. What would Ti have to interpret?

There is, of course, a theory about the dominant-tertiary loops and how they link to different mental disturbances and personality disorders, but otherwise, introverted judging-perceiving pairs would not work.

 

[Suraj Z]

There is no 'long term.' It's a matter of seconds. The impression that I'm getting from your post sounds more like you're describing function states or 'modes' rather than processes. That is, it sounds more like you're saying that when the INFJ is in the process of using its Ti, Ti jumps to the dominant/auxiliary spot to knock off Ni/Fe for a period of time and take over control. This is not true... and this is what I meant by INFJs not using Ti the same way Ti-types do.

For this thread's purposes, I am speaking of "function states" as you're representing them. Not only do I find this approach useful w/r to breaking my life into phases of stress, growth etc., it also rings true for what I'm experiencing right now. Which leads me to--

Suppressing or exhausting a function is actually a form of the shadow and is usually a symptom of immense stress or a challenged mental state. It has nothing at all to do with a focused development of the tertiary.

It might not have anything to do with a focused development of the tertiary initially, and in my case it didn't. My experiences led me to a point (now) where I see firsthand what I've been doing: coming to grips with my underdeveloped tertiary because I've felt I need to. Because the present circumstance requires it, because planning for the future in my present context pretty much requires a tertiary strengthening.

It is a symptom of immense stress or a challenged mental state in this case, because I'm finally being pushed to exert the less-consciously differentiated parts of my psyche to do better now and over the long-run. Most would call this an Ni-Ti loop--I'm not suggesting that Ti's overridden Ni, but rather that it's caused me to withdraw from use of Fe because it's been eating up more of my attention. We do diverge here if you think Ti can't possibly "jump to the auxiliary spot" in the sense of it experiencing more growth relative to Fe during times of stress, novelty, or hardship, which by definition would require use of a function or resources we're generally less comfortable with.

When Fe's not given the results you want, it'd be borderline insanity to keep repeating the same approach in the same circumstance it's already shown to've failed time and time again. This is exactly what's happened for me, and it's exactly why I do happen to think Ti is, by appearances anyway, closer to that auxiliary spot right now as far as where my conscious energies are being demanded more.

Ne, Fi, Te and Si aren't shadow functions. They're mirror functions. ENFP is not the INFJ shadow, that honor belongs to the ESTP. An over-emphasis on your inferior function flips you into shadow mode. You're still using processes that are already conscious and familiar to you, only you're doing so in reverse order and that is a state that overrides your usual mental programming. But I think we're starting to come closer to where our understanding of the theory and mine diverge.

What happens when the processes already conscious and familiar to you (Ni-Fe-Ti-Se, by your count) fail? If Ti-Se are still to be considered conscious and familiar, what do we do when a circumstance requires resources that aren't quite so conscious or familiar? Where do we turn?

Ni already perceives patterned data in localized, component parts. What would Ti have to interpret?

Because raw data's nothing without interpretation? Ti provides an interpretational style that differs in critical, indeed, rival ways from Fe's. It provides logical structure and tests/checks for objective, impersonal criteria, with special attention to technical consistency rather than anthropocentric harmony, the latter being Fe's department.

There is, of course, a theory about the dominant-tertiary loops and how they link to different mental disturbances and personality disorders, but otherwise, introverted judging-perceiving pairs would not work.

It's actually unclear (in Psychological Types, anyway) whether Jung actually intended for this interpretation. A lot of Jung scholars are indeed of the opinion that, while he never outright says which I/E attitude the auxiliary is supposed to have (merely that it has to be judging if the dom. function is perception and vice versa), he might've even intended for pairings like Ni-Ti-Fe-Se to be the case instead of the contemporary Ni-Fe-Ti-Se model. At the very least, it's very difficult to extrapolate from his work that he truly believed the INFJ must be Ni-Fe; the least presumptuous interpretation would simply be that Jung viewed INFJs to be Ni-Jx, where x could well be either e or i.

 

[Paladin-X]

http://www.personalitypage.com/html/development.html

https://www.writecheck.com/static/finding_reputable_sources.html

 

[Suraj Z]

https://www.writecheck.com/static/finding_reputable_sources.html

I'm curious why you find the link Hazard posted "unreputable", i.e. unreliable. What's wrong with the source's stance itself?

 

[Paladin-X]

I'm curious why you find the link Hazard posted "unreputable", i.e. unreliable. What's wrong with the source's stance itself?

It's baseless and unfounded.

According to Jung, your dominant and auxiliary are conscious functions; meaning that they are under the influence of the will. Your secondary auxiliary (tertiary) and inferior are unconscious.

When you use the labels "Ti" and "Fe" what do you think they mean? Or rather, what is it you actually want to improve when you say you want to strengthen "Ti"?

 

[Suraj Z]

It's baseless and unfounded.

Maybe so. But the extent that people identify with find its information useful seems the important bit. Relatively "baseless and unfounded" in any rigorously empirical sense, perhaps, but logically so? Does it make sense or does it not? That's the only real question we entertain with the Jungian functions, absent of any actual brain imaging or empirical validation. The psychoanalytic method isn't inherently "baseless and unfounded" just because the ideas it entertains aren't purely positivistic.

When you use the labels "Ti" and "Fe" what do you think they mean?

Ti checks data for logical properties like consistency. Developed in an INFJ, it might ask where an Ni insight came from, and try working backward from Ni's conclusions (insights) to their respective premises, following Ni's "reasoning" (note that, as an irrational data-processing function, Ni in itself doesn't claim to have logical or emotional reason--it's up to Ti and/or Fe to confer these special properties upon it) as best it can to ensure validity before checking for soundness, i.e. before deciding whether or not a conclusion can be considered true or false. In either case, Ti looks for the how and why.

In a nutshell, Fe pays attention to, looks for, and promotes social harmony and shared values.

Or rather, what is it you actually want to improve when you say you want to strengthen "Ti"?

I kept the OP intentionally open-ended so as to allow for others' subjective interpretations of it. There's no "right" answer here, I'm merely seeking to understand and connect with the subjective interpretations and experiences of others who might be similar to me in a number of basely distinct ways.

 

[Paladin-X]

Maybe so. But the extent that people identify with find its information useful seems the important bit.

That may be, but not in the context with which it was used. So I presented a counter-argument in the same fashion.

Ti checks data for logical properties like consistency. Developed in an INFJ, it might ask where an Ni insight came from, and try working backward from Ni's conclusions (insights) to their respective premises, following Ni's "reasoning" (note that, as an irrational data-processing function, Ni in itself doesn't claim to have logical or emotional reason--it's up to Ti and/or Fe to confer these judgments upon it) as best it can to ensure validity before checking for soundness, i.e. before deciding whether or not a conclusion can be considered true or false. In either case, Ti looks for the how and why.

In a nutshell, Fe pays attention to, looks for, and promotes social harmony and shared values.

Ni brings with it a sense of knowing and perspective. Why do you need to check for soundness and logical consistency?

 

[Hazard]

It's baseless and unfounded.

According to Jung, your dominant and auxiliary are conscious functions; meaning that they are under the influence of the will. Your secondary auxiliary (tertiary) and inferior are unconscious.

When you use the labels "Ti" and "Fe" what do you think they mean? Or rather, what is it you actually want to improve when you say you want to strengthen "Ti"?

It's not baseless or unfounded at all. Most people I know develop their tertiary function at some point in their 20's and I definitely developed my secondary function in my teens. This is how it works. It doesn't give sources because it itself is a source and I know from experience that the source is true. I was simply showing that the functions develop at different stages in life rather than having all the functions at every point.

 

[Paladin-X]

It's not baseless or unfounded at all. Most people I know develop their tertiary function at some point in their 20's and I definitely developed my secondary function in my teens. This is how it works. It doesn't give sources because it itself is a source and I know from experience that the source is true. I was simply showing that the functions develop at different stages in life.

I know from experience of myself and everyone I know that claim to be false. Who is right?

 

[Hazard]

I know from experience of myself and everyone I know that claim to be false. Who is right?

Me.

 

[Paladin-X]

Me.

Clearly that is an insurmountable claim. You win!

 

[Hazard]

Clearly that is an insurmountable claim. You win!

You're right that the functions tend to be unconscious but as you grow older they develop more into focus. Unlike you probably have, I've looked for this in people when I typed them and have been able to successfully type people based on the functions they developed in their 20's and in their middle ages. If you look for it you'll find it. I highly doubt one of the most popular MBTI sites on the internet would lie just for fun.