The French and Infidelity

[Deleted member 16771]

No worries!

Could you not qualify your criterion at least by referring to repeated actions of this kind? i.e., a pattern of actions rather than a single action.

I think it makes a considerable difference.

Ren... I'd have to get out my laptop if I wanted to start 'qualifying' things... gah.

Nuance is a lot of work.

Guilt, remorse and reparation count, though. for example.

Say a kid stole a candy bar from a store, and then decided to return it, apologise, and face the consequences, then that for me is a sin almost if not completely erased.

 

[acd]

OK I'm being a little blunt/harsh for effect, but it does result in a catastrophic loss of 'respect' I have for that person, if not full-on 'dehumanisation'.

It's not an entirely incorrect label, though. Something is definitely lost, because the behaviour is more animal and consequentialist than human and superegoic. It shows that someone acts out of what they can get away with rather than their internal core.

I think there's a huge difference between losing respect for someone because you don't agree with their actions and seeing them as less human or not human because of their actions. The latter is extreme. Even criminals have more rights than animals.

Also, I think immoral actions are human actions. But this is another topic about personhood.

 

[Korg]

What's that got to do with anything? These are all givens in this conversation.

What's your view on infidelity?

I was making the point that much of what gives infidelity its moral and emotional gravitas (in the west, as OP was mentioning) is the severe collision of unrealistic expectations against reality. A lot of the deep moral failure that people ascribe to cheating is actually about the resulting existential pain projected onto the offense, rather than the offense itself. When you're honest about human fallibility and sexual nature, cheating still sucks but it stops being this cosmic level offense where they deserve a special place in hell.

So, what's my view on infidelity? It sucks, but it happens because humans are gonna human -- especially when sex is involved and especially with modern tech. It doesn't surprise me when people do it and I've been on every side of that situation myself multiple times.


My own relationship wasn't particularly relevant other than I was spitballing about how to close the gap between expectations and reality and I used it as an example. It makes navigating the entire issue far easier for me and really just kinda brings the whole thing back down to reality.


Does that make sense?

 

[Deleted member 16771]

I think there's a huge difference between losing respect for someone because you don't agree with their actions and seeing them as less human or not human because of their actions. The latter is extreme. Even criminals have more rights than animals.

It's a visceral thing for me. If I get the time, I might explain my whole position.

Also, I think immoral actions are human actions. But this is another topic about personhood.

That has some appeal. Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto, and all that.

 

[Krypton]

As for infidelity, in my ideal world it wouldn't exist as a concept because monogamy wouldn't exist as a concept. But in the world we live in, yeah, don't cheat on people.

I don't personally care whether someone has or hasn't cheated.

 

[philostam]

Ren... I'd have to get out my laptop if I wanted to start 'qualifying' things... gah.

Nuance is a lot of work.

Guilt, remorse and reparation count, though. for example.

Say a kid stole a candy bar from a store, and then decided to return it, apologise, and face the consequences, then that for me is a sin almost if not completely erased.

Naturally. The child is learning, growing, experimenting etc. Is he supposed to be morally immaculate at the age of 10? It's about a process for me, not about a fixed point in time. Stealing a candy bar at age of 10 means jack shit.

I'm very much of the opinion that all "sins" stem from ignorance and emotional immaturity.

 

[Ren]

I'm very much of the opinion that all "sins" stem from ignorance and emotional immaturity.

All of them, really?

I think this is a difficult position to maintain. Heck, there are even some who sin because they enjoy the idea of sinning (e.g. Sade).

 

[philostam]

All of them, really?

I think this is a difficult position to maintain. Heck, there are even some who sin because they enjoy the idea of sinning (e.g. Sade).

Yes, you're right.

We would have to make some exceptions, but just looking at myself as a example (I consider myself a "good" person), I think most of my mistakes in life were simply because I didn't know better, wasn't mature enough or lacked guidance.

 

[Ren]

We would have to make some exceptions, but just looking at myself as a example (I consider myself a "good" person), I think most of my mistakes in life were simply because I didn't know better, wasn't mature enough and lacked guidance.

Referring to yourself again to make a point, INxP user

Just kidding. I think that in a large majority of cases you're right, but they don't encompass all cases. The notion that immorality is an outcome of ignorance was actively defended by Socrates, by the way. I think he was the first to do so, or at least one of the first.

It's one of the major points of divergence between Socratic Platonism and Christianity.

 

[philostam]

Referring to yourself again to make a point, INxP user

Just kidding. I think that in a large majority of cases you're right, but they don't encompass all cases. The notion that immorality is an outcome of ignorance was actively defended by Socrates, by the way. I think he was the first to do so, or at least one of the first.

It's one of the major points of divergence between Socratic Platonism and Christianity.

Haha, yes. That's interesting, I think I actually remember this from on of the earliest Alain De Botton videos.

I'm sure If we analyzed it deeply, we'd find a lot of problems with this position. But I like its simplicity and it works for me as a staring point. I do need to be more careful with the language and phrasing, though.

Stupid question, but what's the rationale for sin in Christianity? Like why do people sin? I'm really not an expert on this.

 

[Wyote]

Stupid question, but what's the rationale for sin in Christianity? Like why do people sin? I'm really not an expert on this.

Christians ARE sin lol.
It's only through absolution that you become free. You're only really free when you're dead. Hooray!

 

[Wyote]

Heck, there are even some who sin because they enjoy the idea of sinning (e.g. Sade).

Would people still enjoy sinning if they fully understood how it negatively affected their life

Is enjoyment itself a sin

 

[hithere]

In a book called The Culture Code, the author Clotaire Rapaille explained that the French don't obsess over infidelity like Americans.

According to Rapaille, this obsession America has with cheating and infidelity is not universal. Some cultures don't fuss over it nearly as much as we do. The reason, apparently, is that these other cultures are much much older than Americas. And so they have already figured out how to deal with the natural proclivity to philander and play around.

Personally, I don't take infidelity too seriously. If I'm cheated on, I'll talk about it and them move on. It's really not something I get angry or emotionally riled up about. But what do you guys think?

I think it's desensitization.
And being desensitized to immorality (and yes, I think infidelity is immoral) is not a positive thing.

 

[Sandie33]

Am I the only hooker advocate here?

Pin, you know there is a $20 difference between a hooker and a prositute, right?!?

 

[Korg]

Stupid question, but what's the rationale for sin in Christianity? Like why do people sin? I'm really not an expert on this.

God and the first man ever created existed in a closed system together -- evil couldn't 'get' to them in any way. However, the cost to maintain this closed system was absolute fealty to God's commands at all times. Naturally, man fucked it up within a few hours by disobeying and the closed system collapsed, 'evil' flowed in and permanently corrupted the nature of man. This corruption has been passed down through every descendant since via some spiritual / hereditary mechanism and we are now destined to always feel the tension between our will (corrupted) and God's will (perfect). If you choose your will, it's sin.

That's a basic TL;DR

 

[Deleted member 16771]

Stupid question, but what's the rationale for sin in Christianity? Like why do people sin? I'm really not an expert on this.

A girl got seduced by the Devil, and everybody thought that made total sense.

 

[Deleted member 16771]

Pin, you know there is a $20 difference between a hooker and a prositute, right?!?

Madame Sandie speaks.

 

[Pin]

Pin, you know there is a $20 difference between a hooker and a prositute, right?!?

I think I should probably use the term prostitute or escort more frequently.

 

[Deleted member 16771]

I was making the point that much of what gives infidelity its moral and emotional gravitas (in the west, as OP was mentioning) is the severe collision of unrealistic expectations against reality. A lot of the deep moral failure that people ascribe to cheating is actually about the resulting existential pain projected onto the offense, rather than the offense itself. When you're honest about human fallibility and sexual nature, cheating still sucks but it stops being this cosmic level offense where they deserve a special place in hell.

So, what's my view on infidelity? It sucks, but it happens because humans are gonna human -- especially when sex is involved and especially with modern tech. It doesn't surprise me when people do it and I've been on every side of that situation myself multiple times.


My own relationship wasn't particularly relevant other than I was spitballing about how to close the gap between expectations and reality and I used it as an example. It makes navigating the entire issue far easier for me and really just kinda brings the whole thing back down to reality.


Does that make sense?

It makes a certain kind of sophistic sense, yes, but the 'sexual nature of human beings' is completely irrelevant from your ability or not to keep your word to someone, lie to them, or otherwise betray them. In that sense, you're right, it's not really about 'the act' itself as much as the betrayal, but that does justify 'this cosmic level of offense' when you don't just wave away the context of what the act itself usually means.

I think it's probably some kind of self-justificatory get-out clause to have to revert to arguments like that; an abrogation of personal responsibility.

 

[Korg]

It makes a certain kind of sophistic sense, yes, but the 'sexual nature of human beings' is completely irrelevant from your ability or not to keep your word to someone, lie to them, or otherwise betray them. In that sense, you're right, it's not really about 'the act' itself as much as the betrayal, but that does justify 'this cosmic level of offense' when you don't just wave away the context of what the act itself usually means.

Well again, getting back to OP's question of westerners being more upset by infidelity than the French, I'm suggesting it's because westerners are ignorant to how human sexuality really works. The fall from utopia probably hurts more than the fall from reality, but I agree it's a fall nonetheless.

It's like some guys I've known, who come to me all shattered: "I was working 90 hours a week selling life insurance and paying all the bills. Yeah, I was never home and the sex was non-existent but I was a good provider! She actually fucked the garbage man behind my back! How could she?!" To that, all I can say is ...it sucks and, yes it's a betrayal. But like I said earlier: you better go into long term relationships with your eyes wide open. If you're astonished that scenario played out then you went in 100% blind, my dude.

It's reasonable to be upset you didn't get any presents Christmas morning, but also feeling hurt that Santa himself never came down the chimney, that's on you.