The 2008 Recession Was Caused by Kindness | Page 2 | INFJ Forum

The 2008 Recession Was Caused by Kindness

Man, do I love media spins. Now the economic crisis has been caused by kindness. They didn't really mean it! They were trying to give everyone a home. And oh, they really didn't think through the "in over your head with debts" thing. Oops. :]Give me a break.How about all those people who have been evicted from their "homes" because they couldn't pay their debts. Where's kindness now?
 
I think Inquisitive has got this one right. Once you start to look at the operation of a FIAT monetary system and the "pyramid" nature of the stock exchange the "recession"was inevitable. If it was accidental why do regular people lose so much more if you look at the income growth of the top 1% it's obvious what's really going on. It's not making a political or values judgement to say so. What's really wrong here is the deceit.
 
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As Odyne said 'where is the kindness now?'

This isn't about kindness this is about wealth and power! If the elite were acting out of kindness the world would be a more equal place where people would be healthier and happier.

The only time the elites appear to exhibit kindness is when they fear that the balance of power is about to be threatened by civil unrest. For example Roosevelt's 'New Deal'.

The reason the New Deal came about was because of the emergence of megacorporations during the industrial revolution. These megacorporations exploited their workers horrifically and used their wealth and influence to pressure or corrupt legislators so that changes were made to legislation which stopped managers from being liable for the damage a company caused to its workers health (eg Hawks Nest Tunnel Disaster: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawk's_Nest_Incident ), the granting of charters for unlimited time (where before the government could withdraw a charter if a corporation wasn't acting in the public interest) and in 1886 the US Supreme Court ruling that a corporation was a 'natural person' and therefore protected by the Bill of Rights!

By the 1900's there was widespread concern amongst the public over the power of the corporations and how much they were exploiting people, including child labour, which saw a growth in labour movements around the world which demanded change.

The super rich responded by going on a charm offensive, PR campaign to try and improve their image to try and calm the angry public. They engaged in philanthropic activities and argued that well governed corporations were actually good for society.....the back drop to this was the Wall Street Crash of 1929 and the Great Depression that followed it, not to mention the two world wars fought with industrial savagery and costing the lives of millions of working people, but making profits for the industrialists.

Roosevelt realised that he had to give more to the public or risk increasing dissent from the public so he introduced reforms to curb the corporations, alter taxation and increase workers rights. Unions and consumer movements managed to keep a balance of power between the public and the voracious corporations.....for a while.

In 1970 economist Milton Friedman brought in his school of thought (neoliberalism) with a paper titled: 'The social responsibility of business is to Increase its profits' (acting to maximise profits foir shareholders). Reagan and Thatcher used neoliberalism as the philosophical foundations of their actions as they pushed for greater privatisation (which means the rich get to buy up everything and control it!), deregulated the markets (part of a slippery slope towards the creation of the derivitives market which enabled bankers to fraudulently disguise and hide risk, leading to the housing bubble of 2008) and 'liberalise' the worlds markets for corporations.

What this allowed the corporations to do was get around the influence of the public. The public could ensure good working conditions through unions, activism (eg boycotts) and consumer groups but now the corporations could just step past them and begin exploiting the public in developing world countries where there were no unions, no child labour laws and where corrupt officials could be easily bribed to use state apparatus such as the army and police to suppress dissent from the workers.

Prior to this Nixon had discarded the Bretton Woods ('New World Order') agreement which pegged money to gold, in 1971. This lead to many countries pegging their currencies to the dollar which was seen as a strong currency; others however floated their exchange rates seperately; all this created international monetary instability. Globalisation has seen the world's economy become increasingly unsustainable. Speculators wreak havoc on economies and money flies around the world at the touch of a button. One possible solution to this would be a 'Tobin Tax'/'Robin Hood Tax' on foreign exchange transactions as this would raise money to invest where it is needed around the world whilst bringing greater stability to the system. Doing this and investing the money to tackle poverty is arguably a 'kind' thing to do.

The Bretton Woods conference saw the creation of the world bank and the 'Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) with the stated aim of helping to reconstruct the world after the war. The club of rich northern countries formed the 'Development Assistance Committee' (DAC) which used offers of aid as a way of bribing third world countries into compliance. Any efforts by the developing world to establish a more equal system where the global south had more say, based on the UN were stopped by the rich northern countries.

The oil crisis of 1973 saw the oil producing countries recycle their huge cash surpluses through private northern banks and into 'third world' loans. In 1974 77 developing nations appealed through the UN for a 'New International Economic Order', arguing that aid was no substitute for a fair deal on things like trade. (basically they were being controlled and ripped off by the north).

In 1982 a massive financial crisis hit Mexico which threatened to default on its foreign debts. The US government stepped in to protect the private northern banks and imposed ‘The Brady Plan’ on the Mexican government which required them to impose ‘structural adjustment’ (which basically means squeezing the workers...not the rich.... with austerity measures much like they are doing to all of us now)

When Mexico told its creditors it couldn't pay governments stepped in to bail out banks, transforming private debt into public debt (just like they have done again today). Developing countries were left in huge debt with 'structural adjustment' forced on them by the World Bank and IMF in exchange for new loans.

We have seen governments bail out banks again recently passing their debt onto us and the real economy of production and consumption whilst the bankers have grown phenomonally wealthy. Poorer countries were left with burdonsome interest payments while the bankers coined in the profits. In the US the Bush regime brought in tax cuts for the rich which along with an abstract war against a method of warfare called 'terrorism', saw the budget surpluses of the Clinton years turn into huge deficits.

The banking crisis of 2007 hit months after banks were announcing record profits. Governments proved willing to accept bad debts from private banks while those same banks refused to accept bad debts from 'sub-prime' mortgage borrowers, whose homes were repossessed by the banks.....so much for 'kindness'!

So the current 'new world order' is the 'Washington Consensus' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_consensus) which involves trying to use 'free markets' to solve the worlds poverty problems and the imposition of increasing conditions on aid. Really the 'kind' thing to do would be to have a debt jubilee where the debt of the developing world is wiped off the books.

Getting back to corporate greed....in the 1980's the restructuring of the global economy caused massive unemployment and a growing gap between the rich and the poor (sound familiar?). Corporate crimes such as the Bhopal disaster involving Union Carbide in India which killed 10,000 people, the EXXon Valdez oil spill and Nestle selling breastmilk substitute to women in the developing world saw increasing public anger against the corporations just like before Roosevelt's New Deal. This has seen increasing activism eg anti-globalisation, greenpeace (and other environmental campaigners), industrial actions and growing awareness amongst the public about global poverty, famines and sweatshops.

Just like in the 19th-20th century the corporations responded with a PR campaign trying to make them look more responsible. 'Brand image' and 'corporate responsibility' became a concern for the corporations. A whole industry grew up around trying to improve corporations public image without actually making the corporations behave in a more ethical way!

Since this time the public have begun to look past corporations for alternatives and there is an increase in direct action and 'anti-globalisation' movements.

So here we are again! We are seeing more wars again, oil spills, corporate exploitation, banker bailouts, home repossessions and massive unemployment.

But money doesn't dissapear in an economic crisis it simply changes hands. So if the money is leaving the publics hands then where is it going? To the 1% of course.....same as it always does!

The increase on military spending and the tax cuts for the rich we have seen in recent years has also been matched by increasing controls on the public and on the internet.

The US was founded on ideas geared towards limiting the powers of banks and corporations but these have been eroded over time with deregulation eg the repeal of the Glass-Steagall Act 1933 and the Federal reserve Act 1913. The American Revolution was against repressive taxes from the British government but the American people are being squeezed once again! During wars there is always talk of income tax. In world war one the labour movement and farm organisations used the cry: 'no conscription of men without conscription of wealth' arguing that the rich should be taxed more. In the 1890's a hugely popular move by William Bryant Jennings attempted to push through a new income tax to tax the rich more....it was overturned in the Supreme Court. This was finally reversed in 1913.

The 1970's and 1980's saw the political Right making tax cuts for the rich because of escalating house prices in California pushing property taxes sky high. New legislation (Proposition 13) limited tax but saw brutal cuts on local services and education. The people who gained from this were corporate properties who saw their tax bills reduced by hundreds of thousands of dollars. Right wingers in other countries also stirred up anger against the government to justify tax cuts for the wealthy. tax cuts for the rich inevitably mean that the governments must find the money elsewhere and that means squeezing the rest of us which lead to the poll tax revolts in Britain where 14 million people refused to pay the tax and managed to get the hated poll tax dropped and then ensured the conservative government fell from power in the next election.

When Bush gave tax cuts to the rich the gap between the rich and the poor widened. Further to this Globalisation has enabled transnational corporations and the super rich to move their money to tax havens and avoid paying tax. In 2008 it was estimated that $160 billion was lost as a result of companies using false accounting to reduce their tax liability. Surely the 'kind' thing to do would be to pay the taxes so that it can be spent on education, housing, health, infrastructure etc?

An example already posted by someone else on this forum is UK business man Philip Green ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Green ) who has avoided tax into the hundreds of millions. Whats really sick is that he has been given a knight hood and was hired by the government to help them make cuts to education!!!! Student protestors pointed out how his unpaid tax could pay for the education! This coziness between legislators and businessmen is not new and the public really need to use their democratic and consumer powers to break that cozy relationship so that the next generation can get a decent education.....after all....isn't that the 'kind' thing to do?

It should be pretty clear from history that there is a fight over power between the workers who actually make the economy work and the capitalist class who live off their investments. The government is merely the committee of the capitalist class and that is why they are not protecting the public they are protecting the capitalist class.

If we are going to improve the world for everyone and not just the super rich then more and more people must understand this dynamic and play their part in ensuring that the workers get a better deal. This means seeing through the right wing spin and propaganda which they will publish in their corporate media and to never fall for their lies that they actually want to help you and are actually nice kind people who just want to wrap you up in a big hug. They care only for money and wealth and alongside competing with other capitalist elements their other requirement in their march for greater wealth and power is the control of the worker which, unless you are living off your investments right now, is YOU(influenced by Chris Braziers ‘A Brief History...’)
 
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I think Inquisitive has got this one right. Once you start to look at the operation of a FIAT monetary system and the "pyramid" nature of the stock exchange the "recession"was inevitable. If it was accidental why do regular people lose so much more if you look at the income growth of the top 1% it's obvious what's really going on. It's not making a political or values judgement to say so. What's really wrong here is the deceit.

The regular people only lose out if they depend on the rich for their jobs, if they have a lot of debt, or if their main customer base is the people who have been hit the hardest. You can't expect a CEO to make its faceless nameless staff workers a priority if they stand to lose millions... it's cold and I'm not condoning it, but that's what you're getting yourself into every time you go into that kind of situation.

People aren't exactly taking a stand against the 1%-- Apple is pretty much the number one stock on the market right now... and what's really interesting is that it's not even a company with a lot of practical applications-- they don't sell food, or power, or anything essential, really. Seriously, how insane is it that a company that sells things that most businesses don't even use, and for which the only real application is personal entertainment/convenience, is the number one company in the world???

And all of this during a time when you would be expecting people to be holding back on such things and settling for just a cheap regular phone or a less expensive computer (or a used one). If it were just the 1% buying iPhones, then Apple would be out of business... but yeah, it sort of gives you a sense of what 'regular' people's priorities are, doesn't it?

I'm not saying there isn't corruption or that business doesn't need to be regulated-- it does, and I think that deregulation is a huge mistake. But to call it all deceit and act like there's a huge conspiracy is ridiculous.

When times are good, people want to take chances. When times are bad, people panic and focus on protecting themselves. Everyone-- both the 1% and the 99% were taking too many chances during the good times, and now everyone is panicking and focusing on protecting themselves. If someone can't protect themselves, then it's probably because they set themselves up to be in that situation, or because they didn't see what was coming. You can't blame them for that, but you can't blame the 1% for it either... the difference is that certain parties within the 1% saw it coming beforehand and tried to protect themselves before the damage was too great.
 
It wasn't "media spin" to increase home ownership in the US and make home ownership easily accessible to lower income people, it was official public policy, researchable by anyone, even you, and it started ages ago. Feel free to research it.
 
It wasn't "media spin" to increase home ownership in the US and make home ownership easily accessible to lower income people, it was official public policy, researchable by anyone, even you, and it started ages ago. Feel free to research it.


By drowning lower income people into debts they can't afford to pay back? How about taking a second look at those real estate pricing and making them more affordable? Not possible? Let's look at those credit lines then and see how we can make paying those debts possible; lower the interest rate, etc. THAT is kindness.


Anyways, there are multiple players at fault here other than governments and business. We could blame ourselves; a society lacking foresight and driven by instant gratification and entertainment. How else would anyone get themselves into so much debt? @Apone is right, how the hell is Apple the #1 company in the world while book stores like Barn & Nobles and Borders' are fighting off bankruptcy?


What I am trying to warn of here is people gulping down whatever BS they hear. It is a media spin that it was done out of kindness in order to appease the potentially angry masses.


Maybe it was done out of greed, out of shortsight, out of ignorance, whatever. But it was not done out of kindness. Don't be gullible. There is no kindness in capitalism.
 
But it was not "capitalism" (which of course I know is incapable of kindness) which instituted the Federal institutions that created, oversaw, financed and underwrote low-income housing policies and mortgages, and which still do.

It sounded really good back before the bubble to make homeownership easy, cheap and accessible --politicians used to talk about that then, not now. These policies would never have been created if it were not partly out of kindness. Of course the fact it stimulated the economy like crazy also helped. People never complain about anything when they are doing well financially.

These policies have been supported by many political parties and have been ongoing and morphing throughout many administrations. There is not one party to blame. The whole thing created a bubble, which popped. Extremely Messily.

If you flipped it around backwards, and the parties which started the FHA and Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac and all the various other real-estate-related government agencies and schemes had NOT made mortgages as easily accessible as they were 10, 20, 30 years ago, well then, today you would have a much lower level of homeownership, because for decades lower-income people would not have been able to become homeowners.

What do you think people would say if veterans returning from wars could not get mortgages? There's a great deal of talk about the cycle of poverty -- how do we break it? Somehow, easy credit seems to always work its way into these debates. It would not do so if people did not care about things like helping veterans or breaking the cycle of poverty.

For example, back before the boom, people/politicians/ said "We need to help veterans get mortgages so they can become homeowners, this is so absolutely awful, these people served their country, and here they are, unable to become homeowners! And we all know of course, that homeownership is the best way to achieve economic stability!" and that is more or less what happened years ago and in a nutshell, that is how the government got involved in real estate.

So today, instead of angry masses upset that the real estate bubble burst, you'd have angry masses upset for a different reason. No one was angry before the bubble burst, they were enthusiastically taking advantage of easy credit supported by the government.

I don't think anyone is saying capitalism is kind in and of itself -- I'm not anyway -- but easy credit that started the real estate boom had some roots in a general feeling of "lets give these people a chance". Politicians, homebuilders, mortgage lenders and banks milked it for all it was worth.

P.S. And I do realize that the statement "The recession was created by kindness" is one of those overly simplistic sorts of statements that is pretty much designed to push people's buttons and polarize them. As usual. Still, it has a point.
 
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If you flipped it around backwards, and the parties which started the FHA and Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac and all the various other real-estate-related government agencies and schemes had NOT made mortgages as easily accessible as they were 10, 20, 30 years ago, well then, today you would have a much lower level of homeownership, because for decades lower-income people would not have been able to become homeowners.

I remember when I bought my first and current house in '91, getting approved for the mortgage was a complicated process where I had to prove I was credit worthy. At every turn there was another hoop to jump through.
I felt like I had been put through a wringer when the process was finally complete 6 weeks later.
Years later when I did a re-fi, I walked out of the lenders office after 45 minutes thinking, "That was way too easy!".
 
^^Oh, my gosh, I know! It was way too easy, it was actually kind of creepy.

Back in about 2004, I know one woman who had no job, hardly any income, but who was in the process of starting up a new business. No proven income and she received a mortgage for about $150,000 easily in about a day. With no income. (Did I mention that?) gah.

I remember I once had mortgage lenders telling me I could qualify easily for a $500,000 home in around 2002. And I probably could have! That frankly scared the crap out of me, because I knew there was no way I could really afford it nor did I need it in the least, and I knew if he was telling me that he was telling lots of other people the same thing. And you could drive around and see all these huge homes and wonder who made enough money to live in them? (Well, I did wonder that, anyway) Turns out not as many people as you might have thought.

Total and complete cluster.
 
^^Oh, my gosh, I know! It was way too easy, it was actually kind of creepy.

Back in about 2004, I know one woman who had no job, hardly any income, but who was in the process of starting up a new business. No proven income and she received a mortgage for about $150,000 easily in about a day. With no income. (Did I mention that?) gah.

I remember I once had mortgage lenders telling me I could qualify easily for a $500,000 home in around 2002. And I probably could have! That frankly scared the crap out of me, because I knew there was no way I could really afford it nor did I need it in the least, and I knew if he was telling me that he was telling lots of other people the same thing. And you could drive around and see all these huge homes and wonder who made enough money to live in them? (Well, I did wonder that, anyway) Turns out not as many people as you might have thought.

Total and complete cluster.

It always bothered me that just because a lender said they qualified for such & such amount, people would go out and by a house that matched that amount.
They would buy a $500,000 6,000 sq. ft. McMansion when a $150,000 one level 1500 sq. ft. Ranch style would be more than adequate.
Usually a young couple with no kids.
Even if they had kids, is a McMansion really necessary?
When I was growing up families with 6-8 kids lived just fine in a 1500 sq. ft. house.
 
Yes, the average square footage of homes has gone way up. I think today it is around 3000 square feet, depending on the location and of course some locations are much smaller. I think in the 50s the average square footage of a home was around 800 or 900 square feet.

I think people just get really, really really excited when they see something fancy they want and are all "Hey! Look what I can afford!!!" (It happens to me sometimes too, I admit.)

I remember the little old farmhouses with kids sharing bedrooms too. Sometimes they didn't even have plumbing or electricity. Yet people somehow managed to be happy, well-fed, andto live decently. No one ever traveled much either, remember?

Still... you can hardly blame people for wanting better, or wanting modern conveniences or transportation. But it is also their choice, you know? No one holds a gun to anyone's head and forces them to sign paperwork taking out a no-money-down mortgage on a McMansion.

Of course, you can't get mortgages that easily anymore. I will now get off my soapbox! :) It is what it is, no? Crazy.
 
I can't seem to edit either of my previous 2 posts? They just keep coming through as a giant wall of text without paragraphs so sorry about that!
 
A director of Goldman Sachs resigned saying that the bank is 'morally bankrupt'....lol! (link to article is below).

This comes two years after another Goldman sachs employee left saying he was made to create 'Frankenstein products'!!!!!
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/mar/14/goldman-sachs-director-quits-morally-bankruptUK

Chancellor George Osbourne has recently said in the mainstream press that he is 'shocked' by the findings of an investigation he initiated into the tax affairs of the rich to find that many of them have been exploiting tax loopholes and pay little or no income tax!

Jeez George i could have told you that!
 
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There was a time when a bank manager assessed whether a person was suitable for a loan.....specifically whether or not they could pay it back.

What we saw with the housing bubble was bankers giving out mortgages to people who they knew would not be able to pay them back and who would get hammered when interest rates increased in the inevitable fluctuations of the business cycle.

Next the bankers took these toxic debts which they knew would never be honoured and they re-packaged them up together into bundles (derivatives). The bankers then got the ratings agencies who are affiliated to the banks to give these toxic, ticking time bombs a 'triple A' rating which is the rating given to bomb proof safe products.

The bankers then sold these toxic, ticking time bombs to other bankers, who then sold them on to other people. This happened to such an extent that no one knew what was what or how deep the poison ran through the system.

When the housing bubble burst the bankers got the politicians (that they fund) to use public money to pay off the private debts created by the banks. The banks meanwhile repossessed the homes they had deceitfully lent money for and kept paying bonuses to the dishonest bankers that had sold toxic assets despite the damage they had wreaked on the system.


If a second hand car dealer sold you a car with a fuel tank full of saw dust after assuring you it was in pristine condition...would you be angry?

Should we ever entirely trust second hand car dealers? Sure some might be honest, but how do you know which ones are honest and which dishonest unless you are technically proficient enough to check an engine out properly yourself? How many people are amateur mechanics and can check the contents of a fuel tank?

It’s the same with banking. How many people are amateur economists who understand all the ins and outs of what the bankers are up to? The public relied on the regulators to protect them but the regulators are part of the governmental gravy train fuelled by the banker’s money so they won't protect us.

There are plenty of good, honest, decent people out there but there are also totally unscrupulous people looking to squeeze every penny out of us!

I think that without becoming cynical the public in general need to be a bit more savy about how the system works.

Looking through historical events it seems that there is a constant tug and pull between the workers (who do the work) and the capitalist class (who live off their investments). It makes total sense that in order for the capitalist class to increase their wealth and power they must exploit the workers.....this isn't conspiracy theory its just an unpleasant reality.

The point i'm making is that the workers need to remain vigilant at all times. They should EXPECT the capitalist class to try and exploit them. They need to understand that that is THE dynamic of the system....its how the current system works.

So if the workers want a good balance of power and wealth between them and the capitalist class in order to avoid becoming nothing more than slaves, then they must understand that they have to be vigilant and use whatever powers they have, be they democratic powers, labour movements, consumer pressure (eg being selective of whose products you buy or just outright boycotts), activism, lifestylism etc to pull back their rights and freedoms from the capitalist class (who are focussed on maximising profits not on maximising your health and happiness).

How much responsibility lies with the public? I guess to answer that question you'd have to examine the effects of the Public Relations industry, the educational system, the media and our current culture on creating the perceptions of reality of the public.

For example many people get their information from the mainstream corporate media, in good faith, without realising that the corporations are using the media to create those peoples perceptions of how the world is in order to make them compliant consumers and workers, enabling the corporations to piece by piece take all the wealth and power. Ignorance is engineered by a system that doesn't want people to be empowered but rather compliant.

 
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Nothing per say caused the recession other than the nature of the system itself. There are always recessions and recoveries; they are inherent in the structure of our economy, and we cannot point at any specific motive of human behavior and identify it as the cause. That goes against everything we understand about the nature of the economy and simplifies the issue, repainting it into naive moralistic terms.

However, a few trends did exacerbate the problem, and neither of them had anything to do with kindness. There crises in the financial sector and housing market exacerbated the recession. The two were linked and had much to do with the acquisition of toxic assets by bundling mortgages together (creating mortgage backed securities), making them look good, and selling them off to someone else. This wasn't done out of any sort of kindness- it was done out of greed and irresponsibility- particularly because others would have to deal with the fallout of the mortgage backed securities. So you might want to add deceit into the mix as well- considering the mortgage backed securities were, from what I understand, often given much higher ratings than they deserved.
 
What we saw with the housing bubble was bankers giving out mortgages to people who they knew would not be able to pay them back and who would get hammered when interest rates increased in the inevitable fluctuations of the business cycle.
This is true for people who took out adjustable rate mortgages (ARMs) but not all mortgage affordability problems had to do with adjustable rate mortgages. Many affordability problems had more to do with no-money down or other "creative" mortgages that were simply too large, and homes that were way overpriced due to huge demand. And it will probably make you feel good to know that for the most part, the bankers/mortgage brokers who peddled these kinds of loans are, for the most part, currently out of jobs and careers since the bubble burst.

For example many people get their information from the mainstream corporate media, in good faith, without realising that the corporations are using the media to create those peoples perceptions of how the world is in order to make them compliant consumers and workers, enabling the corporations to piece by piece take all the wealth and power. Ignorance is engineered by a system that doesn't want people to be empowered but rather compliant.

In this case I am getting my information from experience, actually, the media has nothing to do with it.

Although I agree that more information and more critical thinking about credit would have helped a lot of people during the bubble. I am not sure ignorance needs to be "engineered", people seem to do an awfully good job of it on their own.
 
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[MENTION=5090]Apone[/MENTION] I disagree that its ridiculous to suggest that the 1% can act in way to increase their profit by manipulating stocks or causing a recession/depression. Small investors who are smart may be able to make small profits by moving their money around, but its tiny in comparison to the amount the richest 1% make.

Small investors can't substantially influence government policy, bank rates, presidents elections, international agreements or "disagreements". If you look at the facts objectively its not a conspiracy theory to say what you see.

In the UK right now there is an enquiry going on into the actions of a large media organisation. Widespread illegal hacking of phone voicemails, computers, possible corruption of police officers, even the hacking of the former prime ministers phone (he was chancellor at the time).

I'm not making a "values" judgement to say so.
 
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Nothing per say caused the recession other than the nature of the system itself. There are always recessions and recoveries; they are inherent in the structure of our economy, and we cannot point at any specific motive of human behavior and identify it as the cause. That goes against everything we understand about the nature of the economy and simplifies the issue, repainting it into naive moralistic terms.

However, a few trends did exacerbate the problem, and neither of them had anything to do with kindness. There crises in the financial sector and housing market exacerbated the recession. The two were linked and had much to do with the acquisition of toxic assets by bundling mortgages together (creating mortgage backed securities), making them look good, and selling them off to someone else. This wasn't done out of any sort of kindness- it was done out of greed and irresponsibility- particularly because others would have to deal with the fallout of the mortgage backed securities. So you might want to add deceit into the mix as well- considering the mortgage backed securities were, from what I understand, often given much higher ratings than they deserved.

That is true and a very good point.
 
I think this is a semi interesting thread.
Sort of off topic, but what I will add is more political ideology.

The right needs to separate itself from religion. And no there is no constitutional mandate about the separation of church and state. That is a mushy point taken way out of the context it was written. Our constitution guaranties the freedom to worship what you choose. Even if that means you worship nothing. All that means is there is no mandatory state religion which you are forced to practice. We have read why the pilgrims came to this country and left the home land.


I understand conservatives feel their beliefs are somehow political doctrine. But they are not. They are just your beliefs. They aren't law. And laws need to govern the entire house. Not just Iowa and the people there. Not just New York. We all live in the house. We all have to get along. I have to tolerate your stupidity just like you have to tolerate mine.

That being said the right can't talk about politics without putting things on the table that have long been argued, established and litigated for the best of all of us. It doesn't mean we like it. I personally think I should be able to drive as intoxicated as I choose. But somehow the good people feel I need to be regulated. Now there are laws and severe punishments prohibiting my disgretion. Disgrestion to do what I feel is my right to do. Ahh but you say I have no right to take chances with your life. It's a slippery slope.

I feel you have no right to impose your religious beliefs on me. And I think a lot of independents don't align themselves with libertarians or republicans for this reason. There is no fear when aligning with the left. They are inclusive. The right isn't. They are judgmental and exclusive.

So no matter your slant in the housing issue, repackage securities and the housing implosion. I think it safe to say, it you buy my drunk driving arguement, that you feel okay lending this money to someone that has no reasonable expectation of paying it back, but for the good of society and all the people living in the house we choose to not let you make such a loan.

It's a hard argument.
Is it Clinton's altruistic fault got letting Glass-Steagal expire.
Is it the banks fault for wanting to make money. Is it Iceland's fault wanting to make seemingly safe investments that bankrupted them. Is it the guys fault for taking an opportunity to own something he never thought he had chance at.

At the end of the day, we need to make decisions that benefit us all. Regardless of political party, and the altruistic intentions to do better, conservative and progressives should work together to make better decisions for us all. See what happens when you pin one against the other. We all pay the piper in the end and it falls apart. So why can't we all agree. We all believe drunk driving is bad.

Religion is what divides us. Religion is what separates us. Religion is what hurts us. Religion is what will destroy us.

I know you think conception and a new life happens maybe with a twinkle in your eye. But there is no reasonable basis for this. It's like saying there's a good chance I'll drive home drunk and kill you on the road cause I am in a restaurant that serves beer.

If you make no effort to get passed this, and your ideas are the only way, then we will continue to suffer from bad partisan decisions. Like the ones that led to the housing crisis. IMO
 
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I think a lot of independents don't align themselves with libertarians or republicans for this reason. There is no fear when aligning with the left. They are inclusive. The right isn't. They are judgmental and exclusive.

I'm not so sure about that.
I think it has been shown time and again that independents tend to vote for conservative candidates more so than liberal ones.