That good ol' J

[meowzician]

I realize there are those here who have far more extensive knowledge into the MBTI than I, so I have a question for you.

If I could define Judging (not Judgmental) J, it is being scheduled and decisive.

My scheduling has alway been weak. Part of it is my ADHD, and part of it is that growing up my mother shouldered 100% of the emotional load--I never had to learn how to keep track of my own appointments or organize a to-do list. And it always seems that the projects I care about the most are the very ones I procrastinate starting. I have always scored moderately high on J because I am most comfortable in making decisions--I really hate having things unsettled. This is especially true regarding ethical issues.

Which brings me to my actual question. When I was younger and still data gathering, it was fairly easy for me to make decisions. However, as I've gotten older I've noticed that the more I learn, the more complex I realize things are, and I have become acutely aware just how little I know. Today I say that none of us can know anything for 100% certain. Back in the 1990s someone said to me, "A philosopher is someone who knows less and less about more and more until finally they know nothing about everything." I think I've evolved into a philosopher! lol. Some things are more likely than others. Science is fantastic. So is sound reasoning. But everything needs to be flagged as a potential error.

This allows me the cognitive flexibility to change my mind, because I am loyal to the evidence, not the decision. I am more interested in being accurate than being "right." And while I think I have developed a healthy trait, it does go against my natural inclination to come to a firm conclusion that I can depend on.

Is there anyone else who experiences this discomfort?

The other thing that gives my J hell is my capacity to hold contradictory ideas in my mind at the same time. It's not really the same thing as cognitive dissonance because I am fully aware that there is both truth and error in there somewhere, but I just don't know where. If I'm not mistaken, psychologists call this comfort with ambiguity. But I'm NOT comfortable with it. lol I have accepted it, and that does help. But I suspect it will never have the ease that some other people have.

For example, I am both a skeptic and a mystic. How the hell do I manage that? I just do.

I can say with confidence (but never 100% confidence, lol) that Moses did not write the Torah, that the Torah was written by the Jewish people. And yet during our worship service there are moments when I will literally get goosebumps, when I feel the very hand of God reaches down and touches me.

I can say that I do not believe in destiny, nor do I think miracles happen or that God intervenes in history. And yet there are things I truly scratch my head over, things my skeptical view can't explain. I have so my synchronicity in my life that mind mind shouts at me, "You are WRONG! You are so WRONG that there just is no word for how WRONG you are. This is the hand of God. Your entire life has prepared you for this--this is what you were born to do. As Einstein is reputed to have said,.Coincidence is God's way of remaining anonymous."

This drives my J crazy because it feels undecided. I suspect that it's actually not. I suspect that its simply a larger meta-decision that incorporates complexity. My INFJ intuition says, "Yes, this is closer to reality than what you thought before--stay the course, and stay tuned to this network for further information." But because I can't resolve it in a way that my reasoning mind can understand I just don't ever feel quite at peace about it.

Anyone else struggling with this?

 

[John K]

@meowzician I share the sort of paradox you express here. On reflection a while back it struck me that our dominant function is a perceiving not a judging one, and this lies at the heart of our inner character. It's natural for us to live with more than one world view and swap between them when we want to. We can tolerate things that are open-ended and subject to revision as new things are presented to our inner vision - I don't know about you but I love the boundary between light and darkness and the shining mystery that lies beyond in the darkness. I hate it when inner visions close down inside a box, and want them to be free and open to 'the skies of other worlds'.

At the same time, I need my external life to be predictable and controlled, at least mostly. I don't like living hand to mouth, nor do I like it when plans get upset by something unforeseen. I'd rather get to an airport or railway station ages before I need to and chill out rather than have a last minute rush there with all the risks of anxious traffic delays and other hazards.

I'm not saying that INFJ types cannot get stuck in a particular complex vision and cling to it, because it takes a lot of mental effort to put these together. It happens I think when we become emotionally attached to our vision and start to identify with it, even treat it as reality rather than a vision. It can also happen if we allow Ti to take over from our intuition, which can easily happen in social contexts that are unsympathetic with Ni and are very T focused.

For me, what you write here seems to me to be very much in keeping with INFJ, and the tensions and dynamics of living that sort of life.

 

[Fruiteloop]

INFP have two judging functions opposite to INFJ, The Te and Fi functions.

Because judging functions are all about closure these manifest differently in Introverts than extraverts.

Te wants everything to get done and when its not they have anxiety of what is left unfinished.
Fi wants to feel good that they have problems not getting what they want.

In INFJ

Ti requires knowing that the inner logic makes sense and Fe is about awareness of other people majority of the time in INFJ

So INFJ wants to have that logic of people meet what they understand.

In this case Your understanding of the world and your understanding of God has conflicts where they don't match up but this is not proof they don't it is only an unresolved issue in yourself that makes it harder because you want to know the truth that might not be available.

This is where faith has to make due.

The INFJ has a very complex system of spirituality that they think about.

It makes sense to them because if it did not they have to reflect more until it does.

So the conflicts just are there because yes mysteries exist. They can be wondrous, amazing and big.

But the main thing is that Ti is unsettled by not knowing it logically.

I have been kinda of off by why colors exist but I find them wonderful they exist they just cannot fit a math logic because colors are implicit not descriptive like math shapes and number.

That is what make life worth living I suppose because we cannot get board if we have things we don't understand yet.

So it is good you have these mysteries to think about, it means your human and can have some purpose in life.

 

[aeon]

Te wants everything to get done and when its not they have anxiety of what is left unfinished.
Fi wants to feel good that they have problems not getting what they want.

This has to be one of the most WTF recapitulations of Jungian cognitive functions I have ever read.

I feel lazy, so here’s some Gemini:

Extraverted Thinking (Te) is a cognitive function focused on organizing, structuring, and optimizing the external world for maximum efficiency. In Jungian psychology, it is an objective judging function—meaning it makes decisions based on external, verifiable data, logic, and systems rather than internal, personal values.

If you think of the mind as a machine, Te is the engineer obsessed with the blueprint, the timeline, and the measurable output.

Core Characteristics of Te​

• Systematization: Te naturally looks at the world and wants to build structures, establish rules, and streamline processes. It thrives on creating order out of chaos.
• Result-Oriented: The ultimate test for Te is always: "Does it work in reality?" It prioritizes actionable outcomes over purely theoretical ideas or flawless internal logic.
• Objective Logic: Decisions are made using empirical evidence, statistics, and proven facts. It favors standardized benchmarks over personal sentiment.
• Decisiveness: Because Te relies on external, readily available data, it can make executive decisions quickly to keep projects moving forward.

How Te Manifests in Everyday Life​

When Extraverted Thinking is highly developed, it shows up as strong leadership, exceptional project management, and a knack for resource allocation.

Aspect	Extraverted Thinking (Te) Approach
Problem Solving	Breaks a problem down into sequential steps, assigns tasks, and tracks progress using measurable milestones.
Communication	Direct, concise, and focused on the bottom line. It says exactly what needs to be done to achieve the goal.
Organization	Loves frameworks, calendars, spreadsheets, and clearing out logistical bottlenecks.

The Te-Fi Axis (The Core Tension)​

In Jung's framework, functions operate on an axis of opposites. Te is always paired with Introverted Feeling (Fi).
While Te handles the objective, collective logistics ("What is the most efficient move for the group?"), Fi handles subjective, deeply personal values ("Does this align with who I am?"). Balanced individuals use Te to build the external infrastructure that protects and realizes their internal Fi ideals. When unbalanced, an over-reliance on Te can lead to a hyper-focus on productivity at the expense of personal well-being or emotional nuance.

Cheers,
Ian

 

[Fruiteloop]

I don't know.

How I define Te and Fi seem compatible with what gemini says.

I was not trying to be extensive in defining them but trying to related them to the more abstract construct of Judgment Functions.

edit:

That judgment function under stress can cause both external and internal conflicts (FiTe would not be the same as FeTi in this way)

 

[Fruiteloop]

Maybe it is because Te is a weak function in me.

I often have to get things done but it is hard with how life is so complex.

Fi does relate to knowing what is compatible with ones values so if those values do not manifest the Fi type gets upset.

 

[Asa]

I am both a skeptic and a mystic.

Relatable.

 

[meowzician]

@meowzician I share the sort of paradox you express here. On reflection a while back it struck me that our dominant function is a perceiving not a judging one, and this lies at the heart of our inner character. It's natural for us to live with more than one world view and swap between them when we want to. We can tolerate things that are open-ended and subject to revision as new things are presented to our inner vision - I don't know about you but I love the boundary between light and darkness and the shining mystery that lies beyond in the darkness. I hate it when inner visions close down inside a box, and want them to be free and open to 'the skies of other worlds'.

At the same time, I need my external life to be predictable and controlled, at least mostly. I don't like living hand to mouth, nor do I like it when plans get upset by something unforeseen. I'd rather get to an airport or railway station ages before I need to and chill out rather than have a last minute rush there with all the risks of anxious traffic delays and other hazards.

I'm not saying that INFJ types cannot get stuck in a particular complex vision and cling to it, because it takes a lot of mental effort to put these together. It happens I think when we become emotionally attached to our vision and start to identify with it, even treat it as reality rather than a vision. It can also happen if we allow Ti to take over from our intuition, which can easily happen in social contexts that are unsympathetic with Ni and are very T focused.

For me, what you write here seems to me to be very much in keeping with INFJ, and the tensions and dynamics of living that sort of life.

This was good stuff.

 

[meowzician]

Maybe it is because Te is a weak function in me.

I often have to get things done but it is hard with how life is so complex.

Fi does relate to knowing what is compatible with ones values so if those values do not manifest the Fi type gets upset.

Awesome. See this is what I'm saying. I don't know anything about Ni or Fe or anythiing. It's a big gap in my MBTI knowledge. This is why input like the above always says things that are new to me. Thanks!

 

[meowzician]

This has to be one of the most WTF recapitulations of Jungian cognitive functions I have ever read.

I feel lazy, so here’s some Gemini:

Extraverted Thinking (Te) is a cognitive function focused on organizing, structuring, and optimizing the external world for maximum efficiency. In Jungian psychology, it is an objective judging function—meaning it makes decisions based on external, verifiable data, logic, and systems rather than internal, personal values.

If you think of the mind as a machine, Te is the engineer obsessed with the blueprint, the timeline, and the measurable output.

Core Characteristics of Te​

• Systematization: Te naturally looks at the world and wants to build structures, establish rules, and streamline processes. It thrives on creating order out of chaos.
• Result-Oriented: The ultimate test for Te is always: "Does it work in reality?" It prioritizes actionable outcomes over purely theoretical ideas or flawless internal logic.
• Objective Logic: Decisions are made using empirical evidence, statistics, and proven facts. It favors standardized benchmarks over personal sentiment.
• Decisiveness: Because Te relies on external, readily available data, it can make executive decisions quickly to keep projects moving forward.

How Te Manifests in Everyday Life​

When Extraverted Thinking is highly developed, it shows up as strong leadership, exceptional project management, and a knack for resource allocation.

Aspect	Extraverted Thinking (Te) Approach
Problem Solving	Breaks a problem down into sequential steps, assigns tasks, and tracks progress using measurable milestones.
Communication	Direct, concise, and focused on the bottom line. It says exactly what needs to be done to achieve the goal.
Organization	Loves frameworks, calendars, spreadsheets, and clearing out logistical bottlenecks.

The Te-Fi Axis (The Core Tension)​

In Jung's framework, functions operate on an axis of opposites. Te is always paired with Introverted Feeling (Fi).
While Te handles the objective, collective logistics ("What is the most efficient move for the group?"), Fi handles subjective, deeply personal values ("Does this align with who I am?"). Balanced individuals use Te to build the external infrastructure that protects and realizes their internal Fi ideals. When unbalanced, an over-reliance on Te can lead to a hyper-focus on productivity at the expense of personal well-being or emotional nuance.

Cheers,
Ian

Okay, this is something I'm going to take some time reading,. It deserves way more than a skim. This is stuff I need to learn.

 

[meowzician]

In this case Your understanding of the world and your understanding of God has conflicts where they don't match up but this is not proof they don't it is only an unresolved issue in yourself that makes it harder because you want to know the truth that might not be available.

This is where faith has to make due....

So the conflicts just are there because yes mysteries exist. They can be wondrous, amazing and big....,.

That is what make life worth living I suppose because we cannot get board if we have things we don't understand yet.

So it is good you have these mysteries to think about, it means your human and can have some purpose in life.

This was wonderful Thank you. Baruch Hashem that there IS mystery in the universe.