Setting boundaries with alcoholic family | INFJ Forum

Setting boundaries with alcoholic family

uuu

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Jan 31, 2011
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Over the past several years I have come to the realization that my mom is a functioning alcoholic. I have always parroted her excuses ("I am a health care professional and know what alcoholism is" and "I am a grown adult and can do whatever I want") to myself but I find her very difficult to deal with when she is drunk and making passive-aggressive comments, and setting boundaries around this has become an important part of my mental health.

Anyway, I am going to visit for a few days next month, and my question is how to spend meaningful time together without enabling her. Whenever I visit, she lines up "happy hours" and restaurant dinners in the name of my visit, but it's really just an excuse to drink and have me drive her around. I am in a bind, because if I go with her, I have to deal with her drunk personality, and if I refuse to go, then she will get upset that I am not spending quality time with her during the few days we have together.

So far, I have just equivocated about the invites and said "we'll see how we are feeling" but this is not a good solution. What should I do?
 
Are there any restaurants that fit what you're looking for that do not serve alcohol? That may be the best way to get around this. You could also suggest activities where there is no opportunity to drink, but that will leave you unprotected during meals. Even if you order in, she can just drink at home.

Alcoholics who are in denial will fight any mention of alcohol abuse. Even if you start by suggesting a limit, she will insist her tolerance is higher than it is. Eventually, you are going to have to let her know that you don't like how she treats you when she has been drinking. That is a hard conversation to have.

This is a long shot, but are there other family members or close friends for whom your mom's alcoholism is a problem? Perhaps an intervention would make her wake up. I also worry about how she would take it if you chose this route.

While I've struggled to get high-functioning alcoholics and people with other addiction problems to realize they have a problem and need help, I have been able to set strict boundaries and rules surrounding the addiction.
 
Without asserting direct and explicit boundaries, an alcoholic parent will continue to gaslight and manipulate you because when they say "spend time with me", they actually DO mean it and *believe* it, but don't want you to realize or recognize that outside of getting drunk there are ways to spend quality time together as a parent/child dynamic.

However, asserting boundaries comes at a cost and a protracted battle and fight with parents who've become accustomed to having their way, and not seeing life in any other way except the way they've lived it all their lives, and have been unintentionally and even unwillingly enabled by their families.

I was in here a few months ago myself asking a similar question (though that one was about my Mother In Law), and the situation and my wife's mental health did not improve until she finally put her foot down and asserted her boundaries. That meant going full no contact and refusing to recieve her calls or respond to her messages for months. She's been receiving her mother's messages, but refusing to respond.

That said, you have to also be mentally prepared, and mentally and physically/financially able/independent enough to be able to take that step. If you're a dependent (I can't tell from your post), then I would advise against establishing hard boundaries, but I would establish soft boundaries like refusing to drive and telling her to Uber or something. That removes some of the risk and responsibility from you which shouldn't be your burden in the first place. A harder boundary over time could be a direct conversation about how you want to spend time with her, but only if she is able to stay sober. Without sobriety you're not actually spending time with each other and she needs to be told that.

If you are financially independent and don't need her, then perhaps it might be time to stop agreeing to her visit requests entirely. A soft "no contact" if it involves drinking might encourage her to rethink and reevaluate. Maybe even seek therapy because ultimately she needs it.
 
I'm not sure if going no contact is on the table at this point. I am financially independent and live in another state, and our relationship is fine at a distance—we talk on the phone for an hour every week, and in the morning when I know she is still sober. It's only the in-person visits that are a strain, and only because of the drinking "excursions" which feel like an attempt to get buy-in on her habit and make herself look normal.

Where are these restaurants that don't serve alcohol? Is that a thing? My mom lives in a major tourist town so I have never seen such a place.
 
I'm not sure if going no contact is on the table at this point. I am financially independent and live in another state, and our relationship is fine at a distance—we talk on the phone for an hour every week, and in the morning when I know she is still sober. It's only the in-person visits that are a strain, and only because of the drinking "excursions" which feel like an attempt to get buy-in on her habit and make herself look normal.

Darkly's circumstances very much seemed to need no-contact boundaries, but that should always be a last step with family and chosen with great consideration.
This is going to be hard, but you do need to try to communicate and set boundaries. You can do this fast or slowly... it is really up to you as long as you are safe, both mentally and physically.


Where are these restaurants that don't serve alcohol? Is that a thing? My mom lives in a major tourist town so I have never seen such a place.

Many smaller restaurants don't have alcohol! Look for independently owned places. They'll state this on their websites or social media pages. Many allow patrons to bring their own wine (some do, some do not), but I wouldn't mention that to your mom.
 
Been in those shoes with my mother and the rest of the family have had their moments, just have to say no and not be a pushover.

A relatable movie if you're interested.

 
Ugh. I posted in the local reddit asking about restaurants that don't serve drinks and got a snide reply reminding me that alcohol is how restaurants make a profit and saying I should just not order alcohol if I don't want to.

This reminds me of a time (in Europe) when I ordered a fruit juice and the waitress laughed in my face.

I can't believe people get so edgy and defensive when confronted with the idea that someone might prefer not to drink.
 
@uuu -- Ugh. That's terrible, and I'm sorry. People are so weird about alcohol. I don't drink, and I've always noticed how weird people are about it.

Also, alcohol is not how restaurants make a profit, but up to about 25% of their profit may be from alcohol. Alcohol has a higher profit margin than food.
Small venues usually make their profit off the bar, not off ticket sales, though, which is why many venues don't book all-ages shows.
 
Ugh. I posted in the local reddit asking about restaurants that don't serve drinks and got a snide reply reminding me that alcohol is how restaurants make a profit and saying I should just not order alcohol if I don't want to.

This reminds me of a time (in Europe) when I ordered a fruit juice and the waitress laughed in my face.

I can't believe people get so edgy and defensive when confronted with the idea that someone might prefer not to drink.
It's reddit. And that too a local area reddit. Those are ... well .. they're basically the FB of Reddit and you're really not going to get much helpful info. I tried to be on my local area reddit as well, and literally unfollowed it after a week of seeing their "conversations" ...
 
Really good point, @Darkly Detached. Local groups bring out bad behavior.

@uuu - Are there any fun things to do that aren't restaurant-related where you are? Maybe skipping the restaurant, going to do something else, and then picking up take-out on the way home is a better idea.
 
I find her very difficult to deal with when she is drunk and making passive-aggressive comments, and setting boundaries around this has become an important part of my mental health.

Whenever I visit, she lines up "happy hours" and restaurant dinners in the name of my visit, but it's really just an excuse to drink and have me drive her around. I am in a bind, because if I go with her, I have to deal with her drunk personality, and if I refuse to go, then she will get upset that I am not spending quality time with her during the few days we have together.

How do you feel about expressing that to her? She may argue, but I think it's important to let her know point blank that you don't like the person she becomes when she's drunk, and that you're not actually connecting during what she pictures as quality time.

Can you describe what "quality time" means to you and how the time could be more meaningfully spent in activities that don't involve drinking? Things you may have memories of doing together in the past?

Edit: I may be dead wrong, but perhaps she's not sure how to reconnect with you when you return and drinking more is her chosen (however defective) way to cope?
 
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Are there any fun things to do that aren't restaurant-related where you are? Maybe skipping the restaurant, going to do something else, and then picking up take-out on the way home is a better idea.

Can you describe what "quality time" means to you and how the time could be more meaningfully spent in activities that don't involve drinking? Things you may have memories of doing together in the past?

Consider me open to suggestions...

I realize that I really don't know what my mom is into at anymore.

When I was young she liked gardening and going to concerts. Nowadays she still does both, but much lesd of the gardening, and the concerts seem like just another drinking venue. She loves fine dining but insists that it's rude to order less than one drink per person because that's how restaurants make their money. (Which was a convenient excuse for her to have three drinks during dinner when I introduced her to my girlfriend.) She is part of book club ... called "words and wine." Even the movie theater in her town serves wine.

How do you feel about expressing that to her? She may argue, but I think it's important to let her know point blank that you don't like the person she becomes when she's drunk, and that you're not actually connecting during what she pictures as quality time.

I have been learning to set boundaries with her and express my feelings when she makes passive-aggressive comments, and she has concluded that I am too "sensitive" and resents having to "walk on eggshells" around me. I expect more of the same if I added accusations of alcoholism to the mix.

I don't see this as a situation that it is in my power to change. I just want to maintain the quality of relationship we currently have in our phone calls and avoid the larger family drama that would ensue if, for example, I stopped visiting her. This is a new mental frame with me—radical acceptance—and I am trying to learn how it works in practice.

Edit: I may be dead wrong, but perhaps she's not sure how to reconnect with you when you return and drinking more is her chosen (however defective) way to cope?

I think this is part of it, but if she was really interested in connection you would think she would ask me what I want to do rather than just make her own plans and invite me to join.
 
Ugh. I posted in the local reddit asking about restaurants that don't serve drinks and got a snide reply reminding me that alcohol is how restaurants make a profit and saying I should just not order alcohol if I don't want to.

This reminds me of a time (in Europe) when I ordered a fruit juice and the waitress laughed in my face.

I can't believe people get so edgy and defensive when confronted with the idea that someone might prefer not to drink.

Another one of those attributes of "business culture" that is only there to take advantage of people.
 
@uuu - What age group is your mom part of? Can she go hiking, or walk around a city?
In an urban area: a museum, show, experience, or event. In a rural area: sightseeing, an animal refuge, a hike. Are there any historic homes or sites to visit? Or natural sites if you are rural? Are there any events in town? Is there an experience you could try together? Does she need help with a home project?
You still have to eat, though.

@Sloe Djinn brings up good points.

Her passive aggression and insults seem so strange. Is this behavior worse when she is drunk? Do you know what the root of her passive aggression is?

I commend your efforts to practice radical acceptance.

---

My dad and stepmom have reached the age where they can't do much, so we stay home when they visit. It's slightly maddening. (My stepmom can be abrasive.) I bought a deck of cards with deep and interesting questions on them, and when we were sitting around after dinner, I got it out, and we picked cards and asked questions. This allowed people to expand on life stories and share what was important to them. I learned a lot about them, and it kept everyone from getting moody and weird.
 
Consider me open to suggestions...

I realize that I really don't know what my mom is into at anymore.

When I was young she liked gardening and going to concerts. Nowadays she still does both, but much lesd of the gardening, and the concerts seem like just another drinking venue. She loves fine dining but insists that it's rude to order less than one drink per person because that's how restaurants make their money. (Which was a convenient excuse for her to have three drinks during dinner when I introduced her to my girlfriend.) She is part of book club ... called "words and wine." Even the movie theater in her town serves wine.



I have been learning to set boundaries with her and express my feelings when she makes passive-aggressive comments, and she has concluded that I am too "sensitive" and resents having to "walk on eggshells" around me. I expect more of the same if I added accusations of alcoholism to the mix.

I don't see this as a situation that it is in my power to change. I just want to maintain the quality of relationship we currently have in our phone calls and avoid the larger family drama that would ensue if, for example, I stopped visiting her. This is a new mental frame with me—radical acceptance—and I am trying to learn how it works in practice.



I think this is part of it, but if she was really interested in connection you would think she would ask me what I want to do rather than just make her own plans and invite me to join.
I'm from a culture where drinking is taboo so I really can't help you all that much. My culture has socialized, found activities to do together that don't involve drinking for thousands of years, so my perspective on drinking is based on my limited personal experiences with my Mother in Law (she was a coke addict) and a friend I had for a couple of years who had both drug and drinking problems and was in extreme denial of both.

I do want to point out that you should not pay heed to her trying to put any kind of onus on you. It's a well crafted manipulation to make sure you let her get her way by making you feel bad for trying to get her to be more responsible. A lot of ppl who have addictions don't even realize when they're making up irrational excuses, or blame-shifting in order to keep up their addiction.

My friend used to engage me in drunk conversations where he'd ask me to tell him to stop and keep his drinking in check (so the reverse of your situation), but get drunk anyway every single night --- Later after reflecting on the time we spent together, I realized that what he was doing was put the blame on me that I wasn't doing enough to stop him from drinking, so he could keep drinking. On top of having a drinking habit, he drove Uber - and he made up this story about how a couple of girls "fake" reported him for drinking and driving which he somehow managed to talk himself out of with Uber management. And then promptly totalled his Jeep in a drunk escapade the same week (thankfully no passengers). We're no longer friends. I did a full block and despite his many efforts, I refused to let him back in.

Anyways, my point is that a lot of people who drink, or are obsessed with drinking (or any other addiction) as a whole find ways to pass off their guilt to their friends and family consciously or subconsciously. Just remember that feeling responsible for her should be your choice and once it stops feeling like a choice, then you need to consider who your empathy belongs to. You or her?

Your gentle, and kind approach is correct, so if you still have the desire, I would say just continue talking to her about it as much as you can, while also remembering that if she doesn't stop, it's not because you weren't able to. Keep in mind that that she doesn't want to take any responsibility, while also shifting the blame for how she makes you feel back on to you when you do bring it up.

Keep your soft and gentle approach up for now, but don't lose sight of how you yourself feel through all of this. It's not fair to you to go through this, or to parent a parent.
 
@uuu I don't know enough about you to offer hard advice - still less about your mother. These are some thoughts to give you another perspective rather than definite suggestions.

A way to deal with this problem is ultimately about taking control of your relationship with your mother. It's so very hard with a condition like alcoholism because it sits just over the border of debilitating mental disorder and people dip in and out, so they are ok much of the time and not ok the rest. I learnt how to deal with this sort of problem the very hard way as my father slipped year by year into dementia in his old age. Of course it's very different with an alcoholic because there is always a chance of recovery, which of course is not possible with dementia. The trouble is that these conditions in someone we love are like penetrating oil that finds all the weak spots in our own emotional makeup. It's really important to take what they say and how they behave as their illness talking, and not take it personally. But that's easier said than done, because they can find your weak spots and hurt you, or at the very least wind you up with both concerns and accusations. When people lose part of their ego, they can no longer control fully their inner impulses and they start to express them and project them in negative and damaging ways. They look for confirmation in those close to them - they want you to acknowledge and agree with their views, because they need it to balance their terribly hurting inner selves. It's really important to see this because it leads to compassion rather than censure and helps us to love them even though they are so difficult.

What I did with my dad was to realise this rationally and keep it as the basecamp of my relationship with him, even when I forgot it in the heat of the moment (which I did frequently). A very hard thing to face is that in doing this you have to change roles with your parent - you have to take on the role of parent to their child, and that takes some adjusting to emotionally.

Some practical things - I learnt the hard way that arguing with them when they are in a bad way is a waste of time, and just damages you. What they say and how they feel isn't coming from anywhere rational and they often have far more energy than you to persist in the face of all reason. These emotional disorders have enormous potential energy and you cannot confront it head on. It really depends on how resilient you are yourself how you deal with it, but it's better tactically to go along with them - you don't have to agree (and often mustn't) but listening to and sympathising with what they are saying without contradicting it is not agreeing with it. There are a couple of techniques too that help, because you will not be able to just let them dominate your relationship with nothing but their fantasies and prejudices. Both are aimed at breaking the flow of what they are saying:
  • One is to divert - have a range of topics that you can raise with them when they start digging their hole, ideally things that will catch their interest and lead them onto safer ground. It might not only be a conversation switch, but a suggestion you go for a walk, or a 'sudden' realisation you need to do some shopping, etc.
  • The other is more drastic, which is to withdraw - not storm out, but go to the loo, or develop a convenient headache, etc.
It takes quite a lot of emotional health to be able to cope with someone like this. If you are fragile and get triggered easily, you need to consider whether an extended involvement with your mother is going to be good for you both. No matter how obliged you feel to her, in rational terms you will do her as well as yourself a grave disservice if you both end up in an emotional crisis that sends her even more to the bottle. If you are reasonably resilient though, then the compassionate thing is to distance yourself from her emotionally and tolerate her uncomfortable conversation as just a manifestation of her condition, rather than as something personally aimed at damaging you, and start to see yourself as the parent in your interaction with her rather than the child (and victim).

Now there's a lot here that I'm assuming, but it seems reasonable seeing that your relationship with your mum is good over the phone and when she's sober. Of course, if her agenda is to pull you down whatever, sober or drunk, then the advice is similar, but you need to be much more self-sufficient, and it may be that keeping her always at arms length is the only way.

I've not talked about whether you should challenge her to seek help and a cure for alcoholism. That's because until you have got control of your relationship with your mum it won't be at all easy to do this.
 
I'm not sure if going no contact is on the table at this point. I am financially independent and live in another state, and our relationship is fine at a distance—we talk on the phone for an hour every week, and in the morning when I know she is still sober. It's only the in-person visits that are a strain, and only because of the drinking "excursions" which feel like an attempt to get buy-in on her habit and make herself look normal.

Where are these restaurants that don't serve alcohol? Is that a thing? My mom lives in a major tourist town so I have never seen such a place.
It can't feel good to be in the state where alcohol becomes one of the few things to look forward to. Nor can it feel good to be addicted and trying to ignore the addiction.

While you can't fix your mother's problems, you can show her love so she isn't completely isolated in her world of hurt, shame, or whatever she's feeling. Getting caught up in her problems isn't anything good, but maintaining some connection to give her a window to look out of her problems is.

You're a good person for struggling for balance between her needs and yours. May God strengthen you both.
 
Thanks, all. :relaxed:

We found a concert at a local Catholic church that (I assume) will be a dry event. So that takes care of one night, at least.

We are having dinner with some of her friends on another night. I'm curious to see how they react to her drinking and if they are similar or not. I can never quite tell if her social circle is enabling her or keeps her grounded.
 
spending quality time with her
Is it really quality time though? Even you think she's looking for a reason to drink, not spend time with you. Don't feel bad for lack of participation, besides with or without you she will drink. She's your mom but that doesn't guarantee she'll care, she's an addict and her vice is the center of her world until she chooses to change that. You don't have control over that and do what's healthy for you.
 
Is it really quality time though? Even you think she's looking for a reason to drink, not spend time with you. Don't feel bad for lack of participation, besides with or without you she will drink. She's your mom but that doesn't guarantee she'll care, she's an addict and her vice is the center of her world until she chooses to change that. You don't have control over that and do what's healthy for you.
This is a good question.

I'm trying to be clear-eyed about this. The truth is that when I say "quality time," I am speaking from her perspective. She is very insecure about the idea that she might be a "bad mother" and she often speaks with great anxiety about friends of hers who have a poor relationship with their adult children. Having me spend "quality time" with her on a regular basis is a very important part of saving face for her. I know that protecting her reputation and feelings is not my responsibility, and if this ever becomes unbearable, I will rethink things. But for now, as a person who has empathy, I am willing to do certain things that help my mother feel good and that are important to her—as long as she can respect my boundaries.

For me, the highest-quality time we spend together occurs when we are geographically distant, and I can call her on the phone at a time when I know she is sober and not distracted by these anxious thoughts.