Satya's fondness of religion continues...

[Satya]

BLANTYRE, Malawi (RNS/ENInews) A Presbyterian church in Malawi has welcomed a 14-year jail sentence for two Malawian men who held a traditional engagement ceremony in a country where same-sex relationships are a crime. "As a church we don't support homosexuality or same-sex marriages. That is both un-African and un-Christian," the Rev. Levi Nyondo, general secretary of the Church of Central Africa Presbyterian, Livingstonia Synod, told ENInews. "We are happy they have been sentenced to 14 years in jail."

A magistrate's court sentenced Steven Monjeza and Tiwonge Chimbalanga to the maximum 14 years in prison on Thursday (May 20) after convicting them of buggery (sodomy) and gross indecency.

"I am giving you a scary sentence so that the public must be protected ...," Chief Resident Magistrate Nyakwawa Usiwa Usiwa said. "Malawi society is not ready to see its sons marrying other sons, nor daughters marrying daughters. It is immoral in our society."
Non-governmental organizations present at the court hearing described the sentence as extreme.

"We are shocked with the sentence," said Undule Mwakasungula, executive director of the Centre for Human Rights and Rehabilitation. "Sending them to jail will not stop them from being gay. We will help them appeal this case and I hope the High Court will be lenient."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/05/21/malawi-church-welcomes-se_n_585639.html

And God said unto his people, "Sentence two men who have done nothing to harm anyone but show public love for one another to 14 years hard labor in prison, for that is moral and righteous in my eyes."

 

[Wyote]

Yea I saw this the other day. Really infuriating. I feel like I need to do something about this, but have no idea where to start.

 

[just me]

Nothing personal, but people do not agree on everything. What is fine with some is immoral to others. That is truth. Some people cannot accept that.

Some places in the world will never accept certain things others see as being alright, whatever that may be.

 

[Satya]

Nothing personal, but people do not agree on everything. What is fine with some is immoral to others. That is truth. Some people cannot accept that.

Some places in the world will never accept certain things others see as being alright, whatever that may be.

It doesn't stop Christians from trying. Why should it stop gays or anyone else?

 

[Daeledin]

In the comment section of your link I saw something about Madonna so I googled it.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/wor...ng_gay_couple_to_14_years_hard_labor_for.html

Celebrity support; this won't go away for a little while. We'll probably get an update on this when they appeal, and most likely fail.

I don't know what to say about this one. Just that I do care about how this turns out. Even though it is in another part of the world and they hold their traditional beliefs. Criminality and legal definitions set the tone and course of a nation. Even If appealing the trial changes any part of the law it won't change the social stigma overnight. That's okay, change takes time. At least those two men wouldn't be persecuted by their country for doing nothing wrong.

 

[just me]

It doesn't stop Christians from trying. Why should it stop gays or anyone else?

Sorry I was out last night.

Christians are not the only people that see certain things as immoral.

 

[VH]

Justifying your prejudices against a group based on the actions of individuals is wrong and you know it.

If someone were to point at the actions of criminals that were of a certain race as evidence of that race being criminals, it would be racist. When a man or a woman does something stupid, to assume that their behavior reflects their entire gender is sexist. When a politician is caught doing something immoral, it is foolish to accuse their whole party of the same. When a gay person has sex with an underage boy, does that mean all gays are pedophiles? Of course not.

These finger pointing stunts just make you look prejudiced and petty.

 

[Flavus Aquila]

Justifying your prejudices against a group based on the actions of individuals is wrong and you know it.

If someone were to point at the actions of criminals that were of a certain race as evidence of that race being criminals, it would be racist. When a man or a woman does something stupid, to assume that their behavior reflects their entire gender is sexist. When a politician is caught doing something immoral, it is foolish to accuse their whole party of the same. When a gay person has sex with an underage boy, does that mean all gays are pedophiles? Of course not.

These finger pointing stunts just make you look prejudiced and petty.

^^
This.

 

[Satya]

Justifying your prejudices against a group based on the actions of individuals is wrong and you know it.

If someone were to point at the actions of criminals that were of a certain race as evidence of that race being criminals, it would be racist. When a man or a woman does something stupid, to assume that their behavior reflects their entire gender is sexist. When a politician is caught doing something immoral, it is foolish to accuse their whole party of the same. When a gay person has sex with an underage boy, does that mean all gays are pedophiles? Of course not.

These finger pointing stunts just make you look prejudiced and petty.

You are wrong. Your other examples are simply incomparable. The fact of the matter is that all prejudice towards gays can ultimately be reduced down into religious arguments. Religion can be generalized in this fashion because it is and only is religion that makes homosexuality an issue.

Find me one antigay atheist.

 

[VH]

You are wrong. Your other examples are simply incomparable. The fact of the matter is that all prejudice towards gays can ultimately be reduced down into religious arguments. Religion can be generalized in this fashion because it is and only is religion that makes homosexuality an issue.

I'm invalidating an excuse for your hatred.

And no, it's not religion that is the only thing that makes homosexuality an issue. Many straight males in the world are made uncomfortable by homosexuality on a gut level. The problem is, some of them use religion as an excuse to justify their feelings... kinda like what you've been doing all this time, using these examples to justify your feelings.

 

[88chaz88]

And no, it's not religion that is the only thing that makes homosexuality an issue. Many straight males in the world are made uncomfortable by homosexuality on a gut level. The problem is, some of them use religion as an excuse to justify their feelings... kinda like what you've been doing all this time, using these examples to justify your feelings.

How very true.

 

[Satya]

I'm invalidating an excuse for your hatred.

And no, it's not religion that is the only thing that makes homosexuality an issue. Many straight males in the world are made uncomfortable by homosexuality on a gut level. The problem is, some of them use religion as an excuse to justify their feelings... kinda like what you've been doing all this time, using these examples to justify your feelings.

Bullshit. There is no evidence that people are born homophobic. They are socialized to be that way. And what is the source of that socialization? Religion.

But hey, it is easy to prove me wrong. Find some anti gay atheists out there. And no, I don't mean atheists who don't support gay marriage, but atheists who are like FA and think the practice of homosexuality is "stupid" and worth fighting on moral grounds.

 

[The Jester]

Justifying your prejudices against a group based on the actions of individuals is wrong and you know it.

> justifying your actions of hatred by referring to a non-existing deity. (Or to a fairy-tale book written about the non-existing deity)

 

[VH]

Bullshit. There is no evidence that people are born homophobic. They are socialized to be that way. And what is the source of that socialization? Religion.

But hey, it is easy to prove me wrong. Find some anti gay atheists out there. And no, I don't mean atheists who don't support gay marriage, but atheists who are like FA and think the practice of homosexuality is "stupid" and worth fighting on moral grounds.

People are in fact born homophobic, Satya. It is human nature to be intolerant of anything that defies that individual's own instincts. Civilization, education, and tolerance are the reason society accepts homosexuality in our modern era. The problem isn't that religion is teaching people to be intolerant. The problem is that people who refuse to become tolerant have a tendency to use religion as an excuse for their natural instincts when they can't validate them otherwise. The fact that religion teaches people to be tolerant is the biggest reason homosexuals aren't persecuted worse in the free world by teaching people to overcome their gut reactions, be they offense at people who are different, the urge to steal, rape, murder, or whatever else. The ethical and moral lessons that have helped forge the civilization we now have are the results of the influence of religion. You're very clearly attacking religion as a whole because of the actions of a few who are practicing it incorrectly, and that's just as wrong as claiming black people are violent and stupid because there are numerous examples of black people who are uneducated commiting violent crime. Crime is just as much a choice as religion. Or to take it even further, it is wrong to assume gay men all want to have sex with little boys because there are numerous instances of homosexuals raping little boys. Who we have sexual relationships with is a choice (note: I'm not saying who we are attracted to is a choice, just what we choose to do about our attraction), just like the choice to follow a religion. You can choose to be responsible, ethical, and mature in your choices no matter what your instincts may say about them.

...and I know several atheists who are very 'grossed out' by homosexuality, and tease them about it frequently. I'm a minister and I have more gay friends than they do. Why? Because religion teaches people to be tolerant. If you're using religion to validate intolerance, you're using it wrong.

 

[Satya]

People are in fact born homophobic, Satya. It is human nature to be intolerant of anything that defies that individual's own instincts. Civilization, education, and tolerance are the reason society accepts homosexuality. The problem isn't that religion is teaching people to be intolerant. The problem is that people who refuse to become tolerant have a tendency to use religion as an excuse for their natural instincts. The fact that religion teaches people to be tolerant is the biggest reason homosexuals aren't persecuted worse in the free world by teaching people to overcome their gut reactions, be they offense at people who are different, the urge to steal, rape, murder, or whatever else. The ethical and moral lessons that have helped forge the civilization we now have are the results of the influence of religion. You're very clearly attacking religion as a whole because of the actions of a few who are practicing it incorrectly, and that's just as wrong as claiming black people are violent and stupid because there are numerous examples of black people who are uneducated commiting violent crime. Crime is just as much a choice as religion. Or to take it even further, it is wrong to assume gay men all want to have sex with little boys because there are numerous instances of homosexuals raping little boys. Who we have sexual relationships with is a choice (note: I'm not saying who we are attracted to is a choice, just what we choose to do about our attraction), just like the choice to follow a religion. You can choose to be responsible, ethical, and mature in your choices no matter what your instincts may say about them.

...and I know several atheists who are very 'grossed out' by homosexuality, and tease them about it frequently. I'm a minister and I have more gay friends than they do. Why? Because religion teaches people to be tolerant. If you're using religion to validate intolerance, you're using it wrong.

Bull. Homosexuality was practiced quite openly in Greek and Roman societies before Christianity. Furthermore, there are primitive tribes that are supportive of homosexuality and ones that are adamantly opposed to it. If your argument of "natural instincts" were true, then every society would have homophobic people in it, but that simply is not the case. How one feels about sexuality is entirely socialized by one's respective culture. There is no "natural instinct" against homosexual behavior. If you have evidence of such, I would love to see it, but it sounds like you are trying to justify homophobia by saying it has natural roots. I don't know why you feel the need to justify it, because there is no rational justification for it. If a person has no interest in such behavior, then they simply can choose not to practice it. There is no reason for them to concern themselves with the behavior of others as long as it does not infringe on their rights.

And no matter how many times you try to repeat your examples, they are irrelevant because they are incomparable. Unless of course you are trying to claim that there is a natural instinct for people to hate black people.

Most religions advocate against homosexuality because most religions want to grow. They can't grow unless people procreate and indoctrinate more children into the religion and homosexuality stands in the way of that. Maybe as a minister you are a bit threatened that I am attacking religion as a whole for inspiring homopobia, but that is the reality. Just because some people try to use it to advocate tolerance for gay people doesn't change the bottom line. Just look in your Bible and you can see in black and white that it says that homosexuality is a sin, worthy of death.

 

[VH]

I think homosexuality is your religion, and you're offended by heretics.

I suppose it's easier to justify intolerance than to let go of it.

 

[Satya]

I think homosexuality is your religion, and you're offended by heretics.

No, reason is my religion. Unfortunately, religion is sorely lacking in it. And yes, I'm offended by the irrational. Especially when they go locking up people for 14 years for simply loving someone of the same sex.

I suppose it's easier to justify intolerance than to let go of it.

I've spent much of my life trying to be tolerant of the intolerant. Why should I be?

Furthermore, I want to see evidence of these "natural instincts" of which you are proclaiming. Why don't these instincts extend to your other examples? Why isn't there a natural instinct for white people to find black people to be icky and disgusting? Why isn't there a natural instinct for most people to think gays are pedophiles? Why is there only a natural instinct for straight males to find gays to be disgusting?

 

[VH]

No, reason is my religion. Unfortunately, religion is sorely lacking in it. And yes, I'm offended by the irrational.

And you often attack the irrational with the same mechanisms that the religious use to attack those who don't agree with theirs.

Especially when they go locking up people for 14 years for simply loving someone of the same sex.

Which I agree is bullshit. Yes, the minister said it is bullshit.

I've spent much of my life trying to be tolerant of the intolerant. Why should I be?

Because tolerance isn't conditional.

Furthermore, I want to see evidence of these "natural instincts" of which you are proclaiming. Why don't these instincts extend to your other examples? Why isn't there a natural instinct for white people to find black people to be icky and disgusting? Why isn't there a natural instinct for most people to think gays are pedophiles? Why is there only a natural instinct for straight males to find gays to be disgusting?

Unfortunately, these things do exist and are one of the reasons why people cling to them in the face of reason to the contrary.

Not everyone has these specific instincts you've mentioned and the multitude of others along the same lines, but they certainly exist in various people, because it is human nature to have an instinct to be repelled by that which offends our own instincts. Most people are repelled by the idea of eating poop, and are grossed out by people who do. Obviously, this is an extreme example, but the mechanism is the same and occurs in people in proportion to the strength of those instincts. I'm not trying to justify these behaviors, simply explain why they exist, as well as point out that religion is one of the biggest reasons why we as a civilization seek to overcome them.

I'd love it if you could become more tolerant of religion, even if you don't learn how to be tolerant of individual people who are ignorant.

 

[enfp can be shy]

And yes, I'm offended by the irrational.

God help you. P) When someone says stupidity is sin or evil (eg: one ENTJ i know), I think wow they must be walking around quite pissed every day.

On-topic: yeah, bigotry is everywhere, in religion, in atheism, in homophobes, in homosexuals ; and people eagerly proclaim what is natural and what is choice, excluding the possibility that it may be neither.

And by the way, why is it called homophobia? That should mean someone who has a phobia of those who are the same as him/her; or has phobia of sameness, why presume sexuality whenever the homo is present; our species is called homo too. Linguistics is such a mess..

 

[Satya]

I'd love it if you could become more tolerant of religion, even if you don't learn how to be tolerant of individual people who are ignorant.

It is difficult when it is so often used as a tool of oppression. Am I not entitled to the same wisdom of repugnance towards religion that you claim that others are entitled towards homosexuality, race, etc. That is ultimately what you mean by "natural instincts" right?

Okay, if you want a broad definition of the origins of homophobia, then the wisdom of repugnance is it. But religion has been built on wisdom of repugnance. Religion finds its foundations in wisdom of repugnance. The two are pretty much one in the same. They both believe that great, divinely inspired wisdom can gleaned from the emotion of revulsion. Yes, this "instinct" keeps most humans from having sex with their own family members, eating other humans, desecrating corpses, and consuming their own fecal matter, but all those acts have rational arguments that can be made against them. There is no such rational argument to be made against homosexuals.