Samsara - What is Death and Rebirth?

[sprinkles]

Samsara is the cycle of birth, death and rebirth, as described in Buddhism. I believe this happens in some fashion, because I've felt shadows of what would seem to be some kind of past lives.

I have one issue though - it may sound absurd but I'm not entirely sure how this takes place because I'm not actually certain what a life and death actually is. I'm not entirely sure that at some point I died and decomposed and some ethereal part of myself magically floated away and was reborn again. However, what grabs me is the persistence of things like genetics, and also the persistence of the state of information in the world as a whole which in itself necessarily effects any beings that are born.

Also importantly, what exactly am I to be reborn? What comprises me such that this can be achieved? My only thought is that there must be no actual me as a precise collection of whatever - I mean like if in the next life I'm a bat or something, how is that me at all? At the same time though, all of the world and matter and energy when viewed from sufficiently large or small scales is simply a huge cloud of stuff. My body is a cloud of cells and energy persisting in a cloud of air and dust and water and tiny bugs that are invisible to the eye which are also just clouds of matter themselves, resting on a giant cloud of dirt and rocks and magma which is floating in a galaxy which is basically just a bigger cloud of stuff - I mean just look at the milky way and zoom way out. It's a big indiscriminate spiraling cloud of stuff with me somewhere in there.

In fact the entire known universe looks like a cloud, from what we know, if you can zoom out to a sufficient scale everything in it looks like a big and evenly distributed blob of stuff. Stuff that is all interacting with each other. It's basically one massive cloud. What is really me out of all of that?

What say you?

I misclicked the wrong subforum. Can this be bumped to where it's supposed to go please?

 

[Rcs6r]

Maybe it's not literal death and rebirth, but a sort of radical change in the self and your ways? Kind of like as we age, we no longer do the same thing we did years ago. Also, I think it's every 7 years the body goes through physical change as all the cells in your body are renewed.

Alternatively, the belief that when you die and come back as, let's say, a hawk, because of the way you lived your life now doesn't make sense. Since all matter is energy, you could look at everything as "part of you," even though it's separate combinations of elements and star dust.

 

[sprinkles]

Maybe it's not literal death and rebirth, but a sort of radical change in the self and your ways? Kind of like as we age, we no longer do the same thing we did years ago. Also, I think it's every 7 years the body goes through physical change as all the cells in your body are renewed.

Alternatively, the belief that when you die and come back as, let's say, a hawk, because of the way you lived your life now doesn't make sense. Since all matter is energy, you could look at everything as "part of you," even though it's separate combinations of elements and star dust.

Yeah.

Actually the possibility of being reborn as a hawk kind of makes sense if one is going to be reborn at all because all things are interdependent. All things interact going backwards and forwards for all time really.

I mean think of it this way. The state of the universe and all of its matter and forces contributed to the formation of the earth. The way the earth formed and persisted contributed to the distribution of diamond deposits for example. When humans arrive, the way that they live with each other and the environment contributes to their society and development of technology. They learn to dig in the earth, and somebody discovers that diamond deposit, and diamonds are valued in society so that person becomes monetarily wealthy, a power which entirely alters everything around that person in that society. So really everything pretty much contributed to that point.

So really in the end what you do effects the world, and the world effects you. Just a word that you say right now could have an effect on the entire universe millions of years from now. It might be a very small effect, but it is said that even a small spark can burn down a hay stack the size of a mountain, and that the smallest drops of water will eventually fill the largest vessel.

 

[Stu]

at least one religious studies professor has suggested that when the Buddha sat beneath the bohdi tree and remembered all his lives, perhaps the lives he was calling into total consciousness where his various complexes.

 

[sprinkles]

at least one religious studies professor has suggested that when the Buddha sat beneath the bohdi tree and remembered all his lives, perhaps the lives he was calling into total consciousness where his various complexes.

I'm not sure what that means, can you elaborate?

 

[ThisIsWhoIAm]

From what i remember (a few years ago i was very interested in Buddhism and i read a bunch of books), Samsara is the cycle of your emotions or states of mind(in this life, although might be affected by a previous one). The cycle of life and death Buddha talked about, as far as i remember, talks about how most people live their lives in frames, from one emotion to the next, from one state of mind to the next, with not much correlation between them - which is described as dying and being reborn from one consciousness to another. One of the ideals of Buddhism is to reach a balanced, focused state of mind, to get into "the flow" if you will. Where death(of mentality) is no more, and everything becomes one..

 

[Stu]

I'm not sure what that means, can you elaborate?

yes

 

[Kanamori]

To my understanding, Buddhism holds that there is no independent self, and therefore no reincarnation. Essentially, we are a part of the evolving process of reality (it might help to think of thought as a behavior), and all things arise interdependently through karma (simply cause and effect). The idea being one of the Ship of Theseus or 'one never steps into the same river twice'. They generally use nouns as a convenience to talking about one portion of the evolving process "I", "that chair" etc. In a way, people may be reincarnated in similar forms to people who lived before them through karma, as reactions to what those people did. By forms I mean something like how what our brains perceive as light isn't really light, but a reaction to it. "Oh bihkshu, every moment you are born, decay, and die".

 

[sprinkles]

To my understanding, Buddhism holds that there is no independent self, and therefore no reincarnation. Essentially, we are a part of the evolving process of reality (it might help to think of thought as a behavior), and all things arise interdependently through karma (simply cause and effect). The idea being one of the Ship of Theseus or 'one never steps into the same river twice'. They generally use nouns as a convenience to talking about one portion of the evolving process "I", "that chair" etc. In a way, people may be reincarnated in similar forms to people who lived before them through karma, as reactions to what those people did. By forms I mean something like how what our brains perceive as light isn't really light, but a reaction to it. "Oh bihkshu, every moment you are born, decay, and die".

This sounds very Zen, and I understand it quite well. However...

Yamaoka Tesshu, as a young student of Zen, visited one master after another. He called upon Dokuon of Shokoku.

Desiring to show his attainment, he said: "The mind, Buddha, and sentient beings, after all, do not exist. The true nature of phenomena is emptiness. There is no relaization, no delusion, no sage, no mediocrity. There is no giving and nothing to be received."

Dokuon, who was smoking quietly, said nothing. Suddenly he whacked Yamaoka with his bamboo pipe. This made the youth quite angry.

"If nothing exists," inquired Dokuon, "where did this anger come from?"

 

[Cornerstone]

My understanding from a variety of sources is that we essentially exist in a state of being in union with, and as a separate spirit or 'soul', All That Is.
At the very root all of us and all other 'individual' consciousnesses are the creator and the creation and our purpose in separating is to experience All That Is.
We achieved this by moving from a state of being into a state of doing and so created the desired state of experiencing.
Experience itself provides the soul with feedback about its current state of being which in turn informs what the individual does and experiences and so the circle is complete.

The experience itself is one of awareness of Who You Really Are.

The amnesia is part of both the individual life so that experience can be authentic. It can be a good thing to be largely unconscious but not when it becomes detrimental to the soul or is putting their current incarnation in genuinely unsought jeopardy. My understanding is that religion is supposed to serve as a shelter for those who are meant to be unaware of the metaphysical in this life but could do with the protection of their brothers and sisters around them who are more aware of the truth. There is a lot of control that can be gained but I do believe we are moving toward a higher form of Spirituality as a whole. The key, I believe, lies in the civilizations (or rather, cultures) wiped out by the settlers in the 'New World'.

But as for multiple lives. There is a lot to experience and so, yeah, a soul will take many incarnations.
It is my hypothesis that the 'lesser creatures' are largely manifestations of the creation itself because at the very root All That Is is consciousness itself.
Karma would be the idea that what I have experienced so far will inform what I do next. We create an ideal life, enter this world and forget everything and then try to live it.
The degree to which we are trying to discover the Ultimate Truth will depend on my level of awareness of Who I Really Am on the soul level - the Higher Self level.

This is the 'You' that lives multiple lifetimes and gathers experience from all of them to inform where to go next, if into matter at all, and what to experience.
My understanding is that between lives I go home. Perhaps after a debriefing...and maybe a delousing ;D
This is much less dense than the material plane where the connection between thought and experience is instantaneous.
Perhaps a soul who is feeling tortured at the time of death would desire to continue feeling bad even after this connection is realised but...it seems unlikely.

I would like to think that this is home to all souls but perhaps that is not quite the case.
It could be so that for some, depending on where they are in their cycle of awareness, are not quite as comfortable in the dimensions of high consciousness and low consciousness with advanced powers of reality distortion. I like to think that after death there is enough abundant awareness that any soul could know Who They Are but I can't be sure.
Maybe this explains why some would repeatedly return to the same bloodline and way of life for many generations and lifetimes.

Can consciousness be manipulated even when it is aware of its nature as a Creator, even if it doesn't know it is The Creator? I don't think so.

Can it be in this state of being and be kept from realising it by entities also within the realm? Perhaps more likely, if you entertain any of this at all.

So I think it is to do with the awareness of the Higher Self and also the fortitude of the individual soul to strive for an ever greater and more wonderful experience that determines where we go. But I think there is great input available to those who wish to take it and try to live it. To 'self-realise' fully whilst in dense matter and to fully remember and know Who You Are would be perhaps one of the greatest feats of experience possible by an individual soul.

Perhaps that is why it has only been accomplished once.

 

[Quiet]

Thats brilliant [MENTION=5559]Cornerstone[/MENTION], God you articulated that well! Personally i think that self realisation by a/the Soul has been accomplished many times, but that particular avatar that you mentioned is the one that most of us are familiar with and the one we have focussed on in our recent history in the west.

 

[gd65h8as7]

posted this on my blog but i'm reposting it here.

"Reincarnation is much more logical than the one-life/heaven or hell philosophy.

Each life is a learning experience. When we die we go to the afterlife, which is called the Bardo in Buddhism. It is similar to heaven or hell or in between, but is temporary. Then we are born again into the next life. We evolve gradually as we learn the lessons in each life, so we will be human again in the next one. Lower forms of life evolve over many lifetimes into higher ones. Finally, when all the lessons have been learned, we no longer need a physical body, so we can move on permanently.
I have witnessed many past life regressions under hypnosis, and observed that our past lives influence this life. A child who can play the violin at age four may have been a musician in a past life. A person who has a passion for a certain foreign country or culture may have been there last time around.

The only proof I know of is hypnotic regression and anecdotal evidence over thousands of years by practitioners of meditation and eastern philosophy.

It explains why children are born geniuses or with illnesses or have short lives. This is because of karma from a previous life. They may have done something last time or need to learn a certain lesson this time.
It also helps us to understand that nothing is permanent, even death. We live again.

The Bible was changed and Christianity was adjusted to remove reference to reincarnation, by the council of Nicea in 500 AD. The church wanted to hold power over its members. We are all born again, many times. Many other religions accept reincarnation as fact."

 

[ThisIsWhoIAm]

To my understanding, Buddhism holds that there is no independent self, and therefore no reincarnation. Essentially, we are a part of the evolving process of reality (it might help to think of thought as a behavior), and all things arise interdependently through karma (simply cause and effect). The idea being one of the Ship of Theseus or 'one never steps into the same river twice'. They generally use nouns as a convenience to talking about one portion of the evolving process "I", "that chair" etc. In a way, people may be reincarnated in similar forms to people who lived before them through karma, as reactions to what those people did. By forms I mean something like how what our brains perceive as light isn't really light, but a reaction to it. "Oh bihkshu, every moment you are born, decay, and die".

Reincarnation is one of the things Buddhists care most about. They strongly believe in it, as they send groups of monks to find reincarnations of their Lamas all over the place.

 

[sprinkles]

Reincarnation is one of the things Buddhists care most about. They strongly believe in it, as they send groups of monks to find reincarnations of their Lamas all over the place.

Yeah, that depends on who you talk to though. Some Zen teachers kind of tossed out reincarnation, taking a more agnostic position, or at least deciding that it wasn't that important.

Edit:
Also [MENTION=3224]Kanamori[/MENTION] is quite correct about this in the applicable connotations. It doesn't seem like it at first if you're used to more western interpretations about soul and rebirth.

I know exactly what Kanamori means but it might be hard to grasp for others if they aren't familiar with the underlying essence of the philosophy.

 

[ThisIsWhoIAm]

I believe Zen =/= Buddhism though.

 

[sprinkles]

I believe Zen =/= Buddhism though.

That's fine though, what [MENTION=3224]Kanamori[/MENTION] said is truly typical of any Buddhism. The key is in the phrase "every moment you are born, decay, and die"

This has to do with the five aggregates.
“What we call life...is the combination of the Five Aggregates, a combination of physical and mental energies. These are constantly changing; they do not remain the same for two consecutive moments. Every moment they are born and they die. 'When the Aggregates arise, decay and die, O bhikkhu, every moment you are born, decay, and die.' This, even dow during this life time, every moment we are born and die, but we continue. If we can understand that in this life we can continue without a permanent, unchanging substance like Self or Soul, why can't we understand that those forces themselves can continue without a Self or a Soul behind them after the non-functioning of the body?”

Like [MENTION=8186]Bikerdelic[/MENTION] also said in the other thread I posted this in, to roughly paraphrase, even though there is rebirth, it's not really 'you' that is reborn since 'you' is an illusion. So in that regard, you really don't get reincarnated.

 

[ThisIsWhoIAm]

Cool. I don't think individuality is an illusion though. Consciousness i believe, is individual. The rest, your genes, your material body, your feelings, your body chemicals, and the spiritual energies that are part of you, i tend to believe are not individual, as in they don't necessarily pass on to your next life(assuming there is one).
While "I" as most people perceive themselves might be an illusion, there is a core consciousness which i believe to be the individual entity which is trying to define itself in the first place.

 

[Cornerstone]

Thats brilliant [MENTION=5559]Cornerstone[/MENTION], God you articulated that well! Personally i think that self realisation by a/the Soul has been accomplished many times, but that particular avatar that you mentioned is the one that most of us are familiar with and the one we have focussed on in our recent history in the west.

Thanks. It was quite late when I wrote that so please excuse any slight stumbling blocks in the flow due to my grammar.
The point I also wanted to make was that the unconscious experience is not inferior - conversely, it is a noble undertaking.
The idea of consent is so important as it is all consensual and actually desired when we are in full knowledge of ourselves.

But thank you for the lovely rep comment and I'm glad we're on roughly the same wavelength.

Do you think many others have then? I see a difference between the new consciousness of Jeshua and the events of Pentecost.
It feels to me that one can become possessed by the Holy Spirit temporarily, informing the rest of one's days (and beyond).
Jeshua feels different in that he sacrificed his 'I-ness' totally to become the Holy Spirit in material form. If that makes sense to you.

I would love to chat more with you again though and I am in a MUCH better place where Spirituality is concerned. I'm feeling it integrate more smoothly.

 

[Bikerdelic]

Do we not go through a philosophical rebirth as we grow up and grow older, going through countless changes?
Are we the same person at 10, or 21, as we the same self at 40 or 60 years old?
Well my own life experiences at 42 years tells me that I have gone through many changes, as I see a very different looking person in the mirror, than I did when I was twenty lol.
But joking aside the one thing that is constant I believe is my own awareness, I wouldn't have been able to recognise this accurately without learning to meditate, but I can say that it is the only thing that has remained constant, more than my own personality or ego.
It seems that only our awareness appears to be the constant thread that runs through our lives, which also helps links us all together as humans, helping empathise with one another.
Any time you have read a meaningful poem, or looked at a profound piece of Artwork and it has therefore had a deep effect upon your mind, you at that very moment are connecting to that universal awareness, The collective sub-conscious that is shared with other human beings and ourselves and perhaps the universe.
I like to see it this way, that like a Beaded necklace, the beads are the many changing aspects of our mortal self (IE the many changing I, ego ), whilst running through each bead of all them changing self's is the thread that is our awareness, that ties all the beads, self's past and present together.
If the thread broke on that necklace, all the beads would fall away and roll upon the floor, as we would have lost the very thing that makes us who and what we are, our naturally born awareness.

It is also important I feel to remember that non of our thoughts or beliefs are truly original to ourselves, as we have gained our personal knowledge, beliefs or prejudices from other people, in the shape of our parents, or relations or through School and the culture or community we may live within, can contribute to influence our personal beliefs, likes or dislikes either way.
It is only when we questions such beliefs or prejudices that we have inherited, by the faculty of our own awareness, using our own intuition that we start to think more neutrally and perhaps more universally (Feeling that oneness).

As human beings we can naturally inspire one another I feel this is very much related to the idea known in Psychology as "The collective subconscious".
So when we break the self down, we can see that it is not independent, but dependant on conditions and environments to form what we would see in the every day as our selves, even our first names were given to us, which is much a part of our sense of identity.

So try to imagine (maybe visual in a meditation if you like ) going back through time, and as you get younger, less and less are the influences placed upon you by others, until you can go back almost to your first memories, and remember how vague they felt, then try to imagine when you were a baby opening your eyes for the first time and seeing the world fresh, with no beliefs, no notions, no words, no set personality only your pure awareness and five senses evident. You only feel your senses, but have no knowledge or language and have no concepts or notions, this is the best way I humbly know how to learn to recognise awareness from what is our egocentric mind.
So a pure sense of awareness is what reincarnates, where Karma fits in? well rationally you could say in our DNA, perhaps, or in the Karma (actions) of our parents and family or culture.
We pick up clues how to behave from our parents or relations and our peers, so our individuality is therefore always dependant on others.
How reincarnation physically happens, perhaps it works on the quantum level? I cannot see it being a physical action or process, (so no Casber the ghost)
However what would it mean to us, well it could simply be that same semi pure awareness that we had as a baby, goes through life with all those changing self's and either becomes gradually enlightened through many lifetimes or if you believe in the Zen, in the here and now, or sadly stagnates or even slips back into ignorance.
Then after we die, perhaps it is as simple as waking up again yet not remember anything of any former existence, living once again in a different life where you carry on learning, until you break the bonds of desire (Samsara).
So if reincarnation is a fact and not a philosophical theory, I feel it might be related to that paradoxical idea of the universe and existence I mentioned in an earlier thread, so because our awareness is not physical as such but is subjected to the physical world, then any reincarnation could only happen I feel on the quantum level.
I personally am agnostic about reincarnation, I like to keep an open mind, but I would suggest reading the writings of the late Thai Monk Buddhadasa, who goes much deeper into the ideas of Buddhism and is a very worthy read, (if you haven't already heard of him before).

What is more important than reincarnation is "The here and now".
Link to Buddhadassa

http://www.buddhanet.net/budasa.htm

 

[ThisIsWhoIAm]

My understanding from a variety of sources is that we essentially exist in a state of being in union with, and as a separate spirit or 'soul', All That Is.
At the very root all of us and all other 'individual' consciousnesses are the creator and the creation and our purpose in separating is to experience All That Is.
We achieved this by moving from a state of being into a state of doing and so created the desired state of experiencing.
Experience itself provides the soul with feedback about its current state of being which in turn informs what the individual does and experiences and so the circle is complete.

The experience itself is one of awareness of Who You Really Are.

The amnesia is part of both the individual life so that experience can be authentic. It can be a good thing to be largely unconscious but not when it becomes detrimental to the soul or is putting their current incarnation in genuinely unsought jeopardy. My understanding is that religion is supposed to serve as a shelter for those who are meant to be unaware of the metaphysical in this life but could do with the protection of their brothers and sisters around them who are more aware of the truth. There is a lot of control that can be gained but I do believe we are moving toward a higher form of Spirituality as a whole. The key, I believe, lies in the civilizations (or rather, cultures) wiped out by the settlers in the 'New World'.

But as for multiple lives. There is a lot to experience and so, yeah, a soul will take many incarnations.
It is my hypothesis that the 'lesser creatures' are largely manifestations of the creation itself because at the very root All That Is is consciousness itself.
Karma would be the idea that what I have experienced so far will inform what I do next. We create an ideal life, enter this world and forget everything and then try to live it.
The degree to which we are trying to discover the Ultimate Truth will depend on my level of awareness of Who I Really Am on the soul level - the Higher Self level.

This is the 'You' that lives multiple lifetimes and gathers experience from all of them to inform where to go next, if into matter at all, and what to experience.
My understanding is that between lives I go home. Perhaps after a debriefing...and maybe a delousing ;D
This is much less dense than the material plane where the connection between thought and experience is instantaneous.
Perhaps a soul who is feeling tortured at the time of death would desire to continue feeling bad even after this connection is realised but...it seems unlikely.

I would like to think that this is home to all souls but perhaps that is not quite the case.
It could be so that for some, depending on where they are in their cycle of awareness, are not quite as comfortable in the dimensions of high consciousness and low consciousness with advanced powers of reality distortion. I like to think that after death there is enough abundant awareness that any soul could know Who They Are but I can't be sure.
Maybe this explains why some would repeatedly return to the same bloodline and way of life for many generations and lifetimes.

Can consciousness be manipulated even when it is aware of its nature as a Creator, even if it doesn't know it is The Creator? I don't think so.

Can it be in this state of being and be kept from realising it by entities also within the realm? Perhaps more likely, if you entertain any of this at all.

So I think it is to do with the awareness of the Higher Self and also the fortitude of the individual soul to strive for an ever greater and more wonderful experience that determines where we go. But I think there is great input available to those who wish to take it and try to live it. To 'self-realise' fully whilst in dense matter and to fully remember and know Who You Are would be perhaps one of the greatest feats of experience possible by an individual soul.

Perhaps that is why it has only been accomplished once.

Who has accomplished this according to you? Also, props for your post, good read.

Edit: Oh ok, read your reply to charlene. You were talking about Jesus.

Although, take note - That might be the only one who has accomplished this in written history. There might be more people throughout the ages who have accomplished this as well.