Relationship with your mother

[Wildfire]

I don't think being infj and having bad parents are directly correlated.
The vast majority of people are just shitty(have trauma themselves that they can't process properly) and so most people just have shitty parents.
We all have our own hangups in life, parents are just people trying to deal with their own shit too.

This.

I tend to agree with you.
As I look back at my childhood I can see I was literally born this way of Being. I was born questioning Why and feeling and observing things all the others around me denied. From that perspective I can see how I was shaped and molded in to who I am today....which includes much trauma. Yet I was this 'personality' type "before" I was traumatized. In fact....in many ways I can see I was traumatized Because I was born as an INFJ.
Perhaps in that way we can see the correlations.

This.

I also think that whatever type a person happens to be will lend itself to being open to different types of trauma

And especially this.

I don't think that trauma produces type, but type can certainly shape our experience of trauma.

 

[Asa]

@Enso
I finally listened to this and this is heavy. What I'm going to say right now is that so many tendencies were covered that it seems impossible not to find a little of oneself somewhere on this list.

I don't have time to get into it in-depth or contribute meaningfully yet, but this topic is interesting.

My relationship with my mother wasn't great. There is one list of attributes I relate to more strongly and it doesn't match the attributes to the one I thought she'd fit, so I need to revisit it. Few of us have ideal relationships with our parents, though. I don't like throwing her under the bus. I'm kind of tired of it.

 

[April]

My mother worked in foreign affairs, but her sole delight seemed to be in traditional wife and mother activities. She was always quick to provide reassurance, encouragement, and something you like to eat. My dad, brother, and I lucked out with her. Every time I visit my parents I always find a small treat and an affectionate note she snuck into my luggage, or the boot/trunk of my car.

One of the things I realised as an adolescent was that it was hard to give her something just for her. She likes to read poetry, play the piano, and do crosswords/sudoku when she's having a break, but there's only so many poetry collections, music scores, and puzzle books you can give someone. It was a little uncomfortable realising that what I could do for her, to make her really happy, was to let her do things for me. I'd normally iron my own shirts and pants, but sometimes I'd ask her to iron something for me, just to see her beaming with delight that she could still get my clothes nice for me.

Sometimes it seems like the nicest thing you can do for my mom, is to let her do something nice for you.

Beautiful.

 

[worthy]

I don't think there is a correlation, at least not in my case. My mom was loving and kind and I was securely attached from a young age. My trauma came in elementary school through the actions and intentions of peers. I'm still working through C-PTSD related to those peer interactions and a later failed marriage. But my relationship with my mom was and is pretty good. Not perfect, but certainly not traumatic.

 

[o2b]

I got into this sufficient in my intro thread.

Through age 7, mom was positively brutal. Then that stopped. She was still quite partial though.

As far as I can tell, I forgave her. But healing from some of her abuse? Nope, not really. Insights, yes. Healing, no.

 

[Y1gtfmd74i5u]

Don’t want to participate in something that has nothing to include me. As I have a family full of its own secrets and lies. Want everyone to be able to discuss this subject as openly as possible. Just hoping and praying for everyone to have what they need during their healing.

 

[Enso]

Perhaps INFJ's just feel the disharmony more.

 

[Matty]

I read all the posts in the thread just now. It's painful to think so many of you have negative experiences with parents.

I hope you had at least some tenderness and love growing up.

 

[o2b]

I could imagine that relationships can shift one's type. For example, I see it as possible that a lot of emotional trauma could cause someone to skew more toward introversion due to internal angst or perhaps to shift toward feeling simply because one's own feelings may be more intense as a result of abuse.

 

[Y1gtfmd74i5u]

I agree on the Freudian concept of attachment theory with our mothers and our fathers.

I disagree in terms of spiritual matters. So it’s interesting to describe what is physical with what is happening spiritually. Hmm.
So it’s like trauma yes but there’s a spiritual matter beneath it.

 

[Wyote]

So it’s like trauma yes but there’s a spiritual matter beneath it.

Can you elaborate on that any further?

 

[Kgal]

....

I disagree in terms of spiritual matters. So it’s interesting to describe what is physical with what is happening spiritually. Hmm.
So it’s like trauma yes but there’s a spiritual matter beneath it.

I agree. There is more to the story ....so to speak. But I'm not sure how to talk about that.

 

[Enso]

I agree on the Freudian concept of attachment theory with our mothers and our fathers.

I disagree in terms of spiritual matters. So it’s interesting to describe what is physical with what is happening spiritually. Hmm.
So it’s like trauma yes but there’s a spiritual matter beneath it.

If your going by the Hindu/Buddhis/Zen traditions, most gurus will tell you that you are nothing but spirit and therefore what exactly is physical. This is one thing that the spiritual teachers like Ram Dass would say that tripped me up. If you "awaken" buddhists would say you have found emptiness or I have become no one. (or something along those lines in general). Ram dass would say if you get into heaven and go "ahhh it was all just a dream" then you are likely to get still be subject to karma, but if you get to heaven and you proclaim "wow...it was real", your less likely to be subject to karma. Ironically, achieving enlightenment is to realise that you are fundamentally emptiness and form within consciousness. There is no one experiencing the dream in that metaphor. It's an unsolvable paradox because there is no one to say whether it is real or not. Therefore, the physical is a concept in itself (according to these philosophies of course, Christians would have a different view etc).

 

[Y1gtfmd74i5u]

If your going by the Hindu/Buddhis/Zen traditions, most gurus will tell you that you are nothing but spirit and therefore what exactly is physical. This is one thing that the spiritual teachers like Ram Dass would say that tripped me up. If you "awaken" buddhists would say you have found emptiness or I have become no one. (or something along those lines in general). Ram dass would say if you get into heaven and go "ahhh it was all just a dream" then you are likely to get still be subject to karma, but if you get to heaven and you proclaim "wow...it was real", your less likely to be subject to karma. Ironically, achieving enlightenment is to realise that you are fundamentally emptiness and form within consciousness. There is no one experiencing the dream in that metaphor. It's an unsolvable paradox because there is no one to say whether it is real or not. Therefore, the physical is a concept in itself (according to these philosophies of course, Christians would have a different view etc).

I’m not a fan of tradition in general, but I get what you’re saying. I’m sure there’s quite a few Christian views on the topic that I’ve analyzed for a while when it comes to that, but I mean it more in a “Buddhist” way as much as I think they both have their concepts aligned if used correctly.
The heaven earth concept of waking up is beautiful though. Thank you for sharing.

 

[John K]

I was blown away by this yt video because this spiritual teacher clearly and calmly describes very early interactions with the mother and explains if there is not enough support from the mother x will occur with x qualities and he literally said something along the lines of "introverted intuitive" - he said it slightly different but almost word for word.

I've watched about 30 minutes of the video and it's very interesting to hear these thoughts expressed in the terminology of a different matrix of conceptualisation to the Western ones. It's such a complex issue so my reactions are just immediate bullet points rather than deeply thought out responses.

I don't think that our type can be determined as a result of trauma, but is determined by our biology in the same way as the colour of our eyes or our handedness. Just as our handedness can be overridden though, so can our type by the way we are raised. I can easily see how a traumatised infant can acquire the habitual behaviours of (say) an introverted intuitive even though they are not one. They will always be dislocated in this, just as a left-handed person will always be an inferior right-hander. I suspect that there are quite a few folks who type as INFJ but aren't - they are living the outcome of that early life trauma. Their cure will include taking on the behaviours of their true type - this doesn't necessarily mean knowing all about MBTI but changing the way that they habitually think, feel and relate to others.

This isn't just a bit of theory from me but from experience, because I spent the best part of my life acting as though I was a dominant Ti even though it's Ni that's my home. I can only express this easily using the terminology of MBTI, but my inner experience is not bound up with that terminology and goes back to my childhood from about 8 years onwards. I did it not in response to problems with my parents who were pretty awesome, but problems with my peers.

I think some of the 'adept' responses that he talks about need to be treated cautiously - in the sense that they may be a reaction to trauma, but they can also be a response to insight. I don't find my own mystical experience, which goes back to my infancy, a reaction to life being shitty, but a response to the glory and the love that I have seen and felt deep within the world I have been born into. I don't belong here and I'm passing through, but that doesn't mean that the world is wrong or has harmed me - it just means what it says on the tin. Of course people may respond to childhood trauma in those ways, but they are experiences that are their own thing and not simply a response to trauma.

I had good parents, and I have inherited a lot of my spirituality from my mother, so I cannot imagine what it has been like for those of you with parents that have not given you a safe childhood. It's not just in terms of the parents who are dysfunctional. My mum was INFJ and my dad INFP - I can only think with fear and trembling what it must be like for an INFJ child born into a family of STs who try and form you into their own image and likeness.

Maybe it's wishful thinking, but I have this strong feeling that salvation lies not just in dwelling on our parents in the past, but in making sure our own children are given the childhood and the parents we would like for ourselves.

 

[Y1gtfmd74i5u]

@John K There would have to be a big difference in that sense between the two at least in terms of genetics and environment. I don’t think spirituality is an inheritance as much of an environmental experience. Where as genetics would be more functionality. Put the two together, then you’ll have more of who someone is.
So in this case I would say spirituality is environmental. And genetics being just genetics on brain function then the expression of “cognitive functions”
Sorry. You switched topics so I had to be a stickler about it and I’ve been through the environmental stuff in that case. I would more so say which is which that creates a type would be a break in ethics to cause it to happen and study it in order to create force. It’s like using science to create faith rather than allowing faith to create the boundaries to science. Been there done that. Loved to the bitter end and pushed by environment.

Sorry sounding like my friend more and more every day.

 

[Y1gtfmd74i5u]

I’m sure there’s many ways at the end of the day, such as the ones we love and are surrounded with in a relational sense, so ignore me. I’m annoyed with other things right now.

 

[Wyote]

I’m annoyed with other things right now.

 

[Y1gtfmd74i5u]

In the thick of a childhood Barney costume lately.

 

[aeon]

I’m annoyed with other things right now.

Wrong-way Stroke of Fur, So Claws Out,
Ian