Predeterminism Or Free Will?

[j654dgj7]

do you believe in predeterminism or free will? what is free will?

modern society uses the expression 'free will' as if it is something we have all agreed upon. but what does it mean? some interpret it to mean that you are the master of your own fate. you mold it and watch the results accordingly.
however, a growing number of research and scientists have emerged saying that time does not exist, and is a human invention. the past, present, and future take place at the same time. how can we be responsible for anything if we are yet to be born, are here, and are dead at the same time?

even if time does exist, how can it be proven that free will does, indeed, exist? you make choices constantly, both consciously and unconsciously. how can you prove that the other option was ever available to you?

 

[Elis]

My position on this has for as long as I can remember been that it is ultimately pointless. If I decide to act upon something I've made a difference, and weather that was on me or inevitable doesn't really matter. I don't mean to say that it can't be interesting to think about, but I do think it can be disempowering to assume the idea that everything you do is predetermined, thus potentially defeating any incentive to do anything.

Live the life you want to live.

 

[endersgone]

Neither really, my beliefs are based more on psychological principles.
Ultimately no though. My beliefs regarding free will evolve/change relatively often, so it shifts back and forth a bit.

 

[James]

do you believe in predeterminism or free will? what is free will?

modern society uses the expression 'free will' as if it is something we have all agreed upon. but what does it mean? some interpret it to mean that you are the master of your own fate. you mold it and watch the results accordingly.
however, a growing number of research and scientists have emerged saying that time does not exist, and is a human invention. the past, present, and future take place at the same time. how can we be responsible for anything if we are yet to be born, are here, and are dead at the same time?

even if time does exist, how can it be proven that free will does, indeed, exist? you make choices constantly, both consciously and unconsciously. how can you prove that the other option was ever available to you?

@ezra - that's a very interesting point. I think it's maybe a combination of two, we perhaps don't have the free will we'd like to believe, but that not everything is predetermined. Have you ever seen the BBC Horizon documentary presented by Marcus du Sautoy - The secret you ? I don't like du Sautoy but he is a very clever mathematician. The way the brain seems to operate around decisions is interesting, of course if things are predetermined, then there's not really a choice.

 

[Siimplicity]

O__o
if time is man-made (it be)
and free will of course comes from we,
then it was surely meant to be
by that which conjured all three
=)

 

[Kgal]

do you believe in predeterminism or free will? what is free will?

modern society uses the expression 'free will' as if it is something we have all agreed upon. but what does it mean? some interpret it to mean that you are the master of your own fate. you mold it and watch the results accordingly.
however, a growing number of research and scientists have emerged saying that time does not exist, and is a human invention. the past, present, and future take place at the same time. how can we be responsible for anything if we are yet to be born, are here, and are dead at the same time?

even if time does exist, how can it be proven that free will does, indeed, exist? you make choices constantly, both consciously and unconsciously. how can you prove that the other option was ever available to you?

I believe in Free Will Choice within the context of our Life Plan set out before we incarnate on this planet.
Before we incarnate we decide on what experiences we wish to have before we die. The details of these experiences are based upon our Free Will choices we make to attain and have these experiences.

For example: I came in to this incarnation with several items on my Life Plan all surrounding the theme of Betrayal. In my long life I have now experienced what that feels like to be on both sides of that idea....and have achieved some of my Life Plan objectives. The details of those betrayal experiences were based upon who I chose to have relationships with. Other details are how I chose to react to those Betrayal events I participated in.

So you see....it's Free Will choice in the details while meeting a predetermined Life Plan objective.

Look at this way: Let's say you decide to take a vacation where you go somewhere far away. You wish to go from point A to point B. Now you may take a plane, a train, or an automobile to get there. The destination is one of your Life Plan goals. The method you choose to get there is your Free Will choice.

Now...about this truth that Time does not exist....

Hmmm... I'm thinking...

From what I've learned Time exists in this 3rd dimensional hologram we live in because the frequency...or vibration...of the energy is slowed way down to form dense matter....like rocks...and humans. Time formed because we needed "space" between our Thoughts/Emotions and the results of those thoughts(intentions) and the polarity of the Emotions(Love or Fear). Earth is basically a school for Humans to learn the consequences of their actions. And those actions begin with the Thought/Emotion.

The Earth School is like a hologram or virtual landscape upon which we are born and die from. We have a singular awareness and we appear to be completely separated from every one and every thing. We are Energy Beings having a Human Form experience.

In the higher frequency dimensions one's energy field shifts up to a level where time does not exist because there is no "space" needed between one's Thought/Emotion...and the result of that Thought/Emotion.

In the higher frequency dimensions there is only the Now...and your experiences there are the results of where you direct your Intention (your thoughts) and your emotional state of Being. You have a multi-awareness and know deep within your core you are One will all.

So Scientists are correct when they say there is essentially no time....and it is also true that Time does exist. It all depends upon where you place your awareness.

 

[just me]

Many are called, but few are chosen.

 

[Matt3737]

do you believe in predeterminism or free will? what is free will?

modern society uses the expression 'free will' as if it is something we have all agreed upon. but what does it mean? some interpret it to mean that you are the master of your own fate. you mold it and watch the results accordingly.
however, a growing number of research and scientists have emerged saying that time does not exist, and is a human invention. the past, present, and future take place at the same time. how can we be responsible for anything if we are yet to be born, are here, and are dead at the same time?

even if time does exist, how can it be proven that free will does, indeed, exist? you make choices constantly, both consciously and unconsciously. how can you prove that the other option was ever available to you?

I really dislike the word 'predeterminism'. I find it to be a redundant and tautological distinction from determinism:

Predeterminism is closely related to determinism. The concept of predeterminism is often argued by invoking causal determinism, implying that there is an unbroken chain of prior occurrences stretching back to the origin of the universe. In the case of predeterminism, this chain of events has been pre-established, and human actions cannot interfere with the outcomes of this pre-established chain. Predeterminism can be used to mean such pre-established causal determinism, in which case it is categorised as a specific type of determinism. It can also be used interchangeably with causal determinism - in the context of its capacity to determine future events. Despite this, predeterminism is often considered as independent of causal determinism. The term predeterminism is also frequently used in the context of biology and hereditary, in which case it represents a form of biological determinism.

I'm a compatibilist. I believe in both fate and free will and do not believe them to be incompatible ideas:

Compatibilism is the belief that free will and determinism are compatible ideas, and that it is possible to believe in both without being logically inconsistent. Compatibilists believe freedom can be present or absent in situations for reasons that have nothing to do with metaphysics. They define free will as freedom to act according to one's motives without arbitrary hindrance from other individuals or institutions.

I, however, to not define free will in such a manner. This definition makes free will synonymous with autonomy:

Autonomy (Ancient Greek: αὐτονομία autonomia from αὐτόνομος autonomos from αὐτο- auto- "self" and νόμος nomos, "law", hence when combined understood to mean "one who gives oneself one's own law") is a concept found in moral, political, and bioethical philosophy. Within these contexts, it is the capacity of a rational individual to make an informed, un-coerced decision.

Information itself is a coercive determining factor. Free will, for me, is the ability to imagine alternative choices, irrelevant of whether one could have or may have acted upon them. In this manner, saying free will is an illusion doesn't make it not real. Illusions are also, in a sense, real. We acknowledge illusions as really occurring. Free will is simply my ability to imagine possibilities regardless of whether or not I can act upon them.

Fate, or determinism, thusly either allows me some degree of choice (if possible) or does not (if not), but regardless does not affect my perception of free will.

 

[j654dgj7]

thank you all for your wonderful contributions. theyve made me think long and hard.

i think free will and (pre)determinism are complete oppositions of each other. claiming that we can change dramatically due to our free will does not sit well with the idea that every choice that we will make has already been made for us, due to our past and future selves. saying that you believe in both is, in my mind, a way of escaping the bigger question of which you believe in.

i believe that time does not exist. we live in a world of clocks and schedules that are completely man made. when you go out into nature and live in the wild, you start to see that time flows in a way that is very different from our perceptions. it almost seems like our entire civilization is built upon the wish to remove ourselves from nature, and instead focus on our own creation: aggressive and expansionist progress. if we dont all believe it, it loses all meaning and everything we possess and currency loses all meaning and worth. therefore we cling onto the ideas of "free will" and thoughts that we are masters of our own place in society. whats the purpose? to freeze time, get rich, and live forever. these things all become meaningless if time does not exist.

we all have to make up our own minds in this debate. the biggest question is whether or not time exists, but before we can get there we have to ask whether or not we believe whether free will exists or not. if we believe that it does exist, we have to ask if we are all capable of willing ourselves to become what we want. if we believe that, we have to ask if a child born in an orphanage has the same chance of going to harvard as a child born into the kennedy clan. if we believe that, we have to ask if there is such a thing as an end goal of materialism, a point in which you become content with the money that you have, and the possessions that you own. if you believe that, you have to ask how much money that is. if at any time you dont believe the questions, you have to move up the chain of questions.

 

[just me]

Many are called(free will)
few are chosen(predetermined)

So both.

 

[sprinkles]

Dissatisfaction and resentment would probably not have evolved if there were no free will because they are not useful emotions without a will.

If you cannot change your fate there is no reason to be troubled by it.

Edit:
Also there are so many things regulated by your brain stem such as breathing, heart beat and reflexes. If we are merely to exist in fate then consciousness provides no evolutionary advantage. We should have ended up as living machines.

Awareness serves no purpose in a world ruled by fate. We could follow a predetermined path without needing to be conscious of it. Because we can think means it is probably necessary to do so.

 

[endersgone]

Dissatisfaction and resentment would probably not have evolved if there were no free will because they are not useful emotions without a will.

If you cannot change your fate there is no reason to be troubled by it.

Edit:
Also there are so many things regulated by your brain stem such as breathing, heart beat and reflexes. If we are merely to exist in fate then consciousness provides no evolutionary advantage. We should have ended up as living machines.

Awareness serves no purpose in a world ruled by fate. We could follow a predetermined path without needing to be conscious of it. Because we can think means it is probably necessary to do so.

We are troubled by many things we can't control... we're also very good at finding things that lend credence to this control.

Self-awareness could just be a side effect of a well oiled machine; to believe one is in control may very well contribute to mental stability and/or life expectancy/procreation.

*Edit*
(ultimately anyway-- past the minutiae of details we attribute to self-awareness)

 

[sprinkles]

We are troubled by many things we can't control... we're also very good at finding things that lend credence to this control.

Self-awareness could just be a side effect of a well oiled machine; to believe one is in control may very well contribute to mental stability and/or life expectancy/procreation.

Being troubled by what you "can't control" is actually ambition to change how things work in some way. What you can't control is relative. There are endless things we couldn't control before but we can control now.

There is no innovation without motivation.

 

[sprinkles]

Self-awareness could just be a side effect of a well oiled machine; to believe one is in control may very well contribute to mental stability and/or life expectancy/procreation.
(ultimately anyway-- past the minutiae of details we attribute to self-awareness)

Only conscious beings feel a need for mental stability or life expectancy so that's a bit of a loop there.

Mental stability implies mental capacity which means that mental stability circularly introduces the problem it is supposed to solve. If there's no awareness then there is nothing to keep stable.

 

[endersgone]

Only conscious beings feel a need for mental stability or life expectancy so that's a bit of a loop there.

Mental stability implies mental capacity which means that mental stability circularly introduces the problem it is supposed to solve. If there's no awareness then there is nothing to keep stable.

For one, life expectancy ultimately means procreation in the above statement; do not take my words out of context.
This is all relative to what you're applying in regards to the meaning of self-awareness.

 

[sprinkles]

For one, life expectancy ultimately means procreation in the above statement; do not take my words out of context.
This is all relative to what you're applying in regards to the meaning of self-awareness.

It's not out of context. There is no reason to value or extend a specific life expectancy. Gnats live for about a week for example and they have no trouble being prolific.

 

[endersgone]

It's not out of context. There is no reason to value or extend a specific life expectancy. Gnats live for about a week for example and they have no trouble being prolific.

You don't understand, my ultimate point was simply more procreation as a by product --
Which I clearly just stated.

 

[sprinkles]

You don't understand, my ultimate point was simply more procreation as a by product --
Which I clearly just stated.

I know what you're saying. I'm not convinced about why it needs to be true.

 

[endersgone]

I know what you're saying. I'm not convinced about why it needs to be true.

What is the ultimate goal of an organism? Why apply innovation to self-awareness? Many organisms innovate without even having the mental capacity/understanding to know that it improves their own odds of survival (ultimately procreation). Why is it more special when humans do it??

 

[sprinkles]

What is the ultimate goal of an organism? Why apply innovation to self-awareness? Many organisms innovate without even having the mental capacity/understanding to know that it improves their own odds of survival (ultimately procreation). Why is more special when humans do it??

I never said that humans are the only conscious beings.

Edit:
Also it's not really innovation if they're truly not aware. And if they are not aware then that also proves that awareness is not necessary as I've already said so it kind of makes my point actually.