Original Sin--Born with the sin nature...

[Deleted member 16771]

@just me it's with some hesitation that I'm making this comment, but I'll have a go.

It seems to me that you feel you have a very deep commitment to Christ. I think the problem you are facing is that you are bringing yourself to these discussions in a way that can't appeal to dominant intuitives, and that is so sad because you very likely have valuable things to say. It's as though you are trying to get through a wall that has no door in it, but you keep on knocking as though there was one. Maybe you need to think about going around the wall instead? To put it explicitly, Ni dominant people build very complex inner models of the world. With something as profound as a spiritual perspective they will have spent a lot of time and energy on this - they won't modify their views quickly and easily when new input is at variance with their insight and will react defensively if pushed too hard. I know this is the way I am - perhaps you are like this yourself too?

What dominant Ni's do very well – again, this is what I do - is to suspend judgement, listen, express their own ideas non-judgementally, clarify through discussion, throw in some humour, and over time all these new ideas help their inner vision to grow, often in ways they never expected. It is a rare privilege to find a group of people like we have in this forum who see and think about the world in our own kind of way. At our best we tread lightly on other people's visions when we are on their territory and treat others as guests when they are on our own.

When I look through this thread I can see almost as many views on the topic of original sin as people who have posted, and they all seem to have been listened to courteously and considerately in the main. My own views are different from those of many others in the forum on religious topics - this is great because I can learn so much from what they bring to any discussion, and I hope others can gain something from me. I'm new to this particular the thread and in just a couple of days it has given me much food for thought and a far better feel for the topic than I had before.

Well said, John.

I feel the same - there's a lot of interesting perspectives here and new knowledge which I haven't encountered before.

I'd like to think that what we're doing is a kind of amateur theology for fun, and I think that's a good model to adopt.

It's important to remember that Christian theologians throughout history were allowed to hold certain heterodox views for the sake of advancing knowledge of the faith. They weren't labelled heretics (for the most part), but rather a non-judgemental space for them was created in order to promote free debate.

What a privilege for us to be able to carry on a casual theological debate in our spare time! It would be a shame to spoil it.

 

[sprinkles]

@just me it's with some hesitation that I'm making this comment, but I'll have a go.

It seems to me that you feel you have a very deep commitment to Christ. I think the problem you are facing is that you are bringing yourself to these discussions in a way that can't appeal to dominant intuitives, and that is so sad because you very likely have valuable things to say. It's as though you are trying to get through a wall that has no door in it, but you keep on knocking as though there was one. Maybe you need to think about going around the wall instead? To put it explicitly, Ni dominant people build very complex inner models of the world. With something as profound as a spiritual perspective they will have spent a lot of time and energy on this - they won't modify their views quickly and easily when new input is at variance with their insight and will react defensively if pushed too hard. I know this is the way I am - perhaps you are like this yourself too?

What dominant Ni's do very well – again, this is what I do - is to suspend judgement, listen, express their own ideas non-judgementally, clarify through discussion, throw in some humour, and over time all these new ideas help their inner vision to grow, often in ways they never expected. It is a rare privilege to find a group of people like we have in this forum who see and think about the world in our own kind of way. At our best we tread lightly on other people's visions when we are on their territory and treat others as guests when they are on our own.

When I look through this thread I can see almost as many views on the topic of original sin as people who have posted, and they all seem to have been listened to courteously and considerately in the main. My own views are different from those of many others in the forum on religious topics - this is great because I can learn so much from what they bring to any discussion, and I hope others can gain something from me. I'm new to this particular the thread and in just a couple of days it has given me much food for thought and a far better feel for the topic than I had before.

From my view it's not what he says, but how he says it. He constantly talks in stilted religious memes and parables which comes across as severely inauthentic.

It's like he talks to himself more than other people. He's been told several times how to get better reactions but doesn't listen.

 

[Ren]

From my view it's not what he says, but how he says it. He constantly talks in stilted religious memes and parables which comes across as severely inauthentic.

It's like he talks to himself more than other people. He's been told several times how to get better reactions but doesn't listen.

Thou shalt be punished for thy impious words.

:upsidedown:

(Joking of course!)

 

[sprinkles]

Thou shalt be punished for thy impious words.

:upsidedown:

This right here.

 

[John K]

Oooh Goody - practical classes

 

[John K]

From my view it's not what he says, but how he says it. He constantly talks in stilted religious memes and parables which comes across as severely inauthentic.

It's like he talks to himself more than other people. He's been told several times how to get better reactions but doesn't listen.

I hear what you say Sprinkles - you've been around the forum a lot longer than I have. I try to be half full rather than half empty, but it sometimes turns out like this:

 

[Ren]

I hear what you say Sprinkles - you've been around the forum a lot longer than I have. I try to be half full rather than half empty, but it sometimes turns out like this:

A half full glass is the way to a constructive conversation. Being open to conversation with people who don't share the same views are enriching and can actually lead one to an even stronger position regarding one's beliefs.

Your approach is the right one, John Let's go for a magical half pint soon!

 

[sprinkles]

A half full glass is the way to a constructive conversation. Being open to conversation with people who don't share the same views are enriching and can actually lead one to an even stronger position regarding one's beliefs.

Your approach is the right one, John Let's go for a magical half pint soon!

Yeah. I can talk to you just fine for example.

 

[Ren]

Yeah. I can talk to you just fine for example.

We have agreed on a good number of things, and I supported your notion of the subjectivity of morals from my own position.

I admitted that you had a strong objection against the idea that thoughts were necessarily linguistic, etc. I think you can be quite direct and frontal in the way you debate but that's not necessarily a bad thing. I got used to it

 

[sprinkles]

We have agreed on a good number of things, and I supported your notion of the subjectivity of morals from my own position.

I admitted that you had a strong objection against the idea that thoughts were necessarily linguistic, etc. I think you can be quite direct and frontal in the way you debate but that's not necessarily a bad thing. I got used to it

I try to make my points bright and definite because I've dealt with a lot of people that look for weakness in certainty or language. Or trying to reinterpret my premises into weaker versions.

 

[Ren]

I try to make my points bright and definite because I've dealt with a lot of people that look for weakness in certainty or language. Or trying to reinterpret my premises into weaker versions.

I think that's a wise approach. I try to do the same.

We just gotta keep in mind that sometimes people pinpoint something faulty in our premises and they're right about it.

 

[sprinkles]

I think that's a wise approach. I try to do the same.

We just gotta keep in mind that sometimes people pinpoint something faulty in our premises and they're right about it.

Like that math thing with the cucumbers.

 

[Ren]

Like that math thing with the cucumbers.

Sometimes your associations really make me curious about your mbti type.

Care to share?

 

[sprinkles]

Sometimes your associations really make me curious about your mbti type.

Care to share?

I don't really know. I thought INFJ but I don't know anymore.

 

[Skarekrow]

I think that's a wise approach. I try to do the same.

We just gotta keep in mind that sometimes people pinpoint something faulty in our premises and they're right about it.

I concur.
And unless it’s 2+2=4 and similar topics, the ideas, theories, thoughts, and convictions people believe are just that - subjectively right or wrong.
I can admit when I am wrong...I can admit when I could be wrong...if the possibility exists, then you should withhold making “factual” statements...or at the very least statements denouncing the truthfulness of another when we ourselves are speaking of unprovable/theoretical/philosophical/theological (thus far) subjects.
I don’t know why my views represents such a threat or personal insult to certain people...especially after I write disclaimers about NOT attacking anyones’ religion...*sigh*.
I mean, I certainly could...and I could certainly be really rude and mean about it too...there is more than enough material to paint a terrible picture of just about any religion out there or having existed.
But that was never my intention or point.
(Just go read our interactions...it was never my intention to disprove anything anyone believes - and I stated as much.)
Clearly my presence is enough to get under certain people’s skin and what I post is immediately and superficially opposed to (views, opinions, and stances) no matter the content.
I have never stated that what I wrote on this forum is the end all of statements.
Most of my statements are steeped in questioning itself.

I absolutely DO NOT think I am smarter, better in any way, more wise, more thoughtful, more empathetic, book smart, more spiritual, or above anyone here on the forum...including those certain people who don’t feel the same way about me and cannot withhold that opinion.

I am perfectly okay with being wrong...I welcome it...otherwise I must be insane to think I am right about everything...or even know more than the next person.
If you think you are the smartest person in the room (unless it’s empty), you most certainly have failed imho.

 

[Wyote]

I had a friend in primary school (elementary), who used to sing when he got into fights.

'feel the heat, feel the heat!' and then he would beatbox the drums and everything. Would really throw them off.

He never won, mind...

He won in his heart, that's all that matters

 

[just me]

When someone ridicules another all the time, making statements that have nothing to do with the subject in their rantings, I will not sit by idle while they spread their BS.

"You're so vain. You probably think this song is about you." Most people remember that song's lyrics. If I say something about religion or spirituality, why does the same person always try to destroy my posts? He stated he gets so pissed off. The things I see and feel are real.
The "I" mentality is not good. Being pissed off is not good. I feel like a burning coal: every time I light up he steps on me. Always has to have the last word making accusations that don't exist. Things like "eye roll".
The vivid imagination? "you have to twist things", from Mr Twister himself. "Don't get all butthurt" comes from God knows what. "STFU" well you try it yourself. "minimal human interaction over a forum" I am a busy old man.
"Out of control ego"? Look in the mirror.

@John K, I do have a lot to say and to add. Experience teaches us things we feel we must share in a way others might want to follow through on, especially when growing older. I feel it wrong to spell things out clearly. Maybe the time for that has not come. Watch and see the things I before mentioned come true. I don't curse like some uninstructed child with no respect for others. I also don't pray on the forums. I speak what I feel I must speak. I'll not allow someone speaking negatively about me have the last word. I love playing chess. I spend most of my spare time playing chess around the world and watching old games by the greats played. I do have another life other than here. If I could save everyone on this forum I wanted to, it would not be someone that hates God. Where is the love?

 

[Skarekrow]

When someone ridicules another all the time, making statements that have nothing to do with the subject in their rantings, I will not sit by idle while they spread their BS.

"You're so vain. You probably think this song is about you." Most people remember that song's lyrics. If I say something about religion or spirituality, why does the same person always try to destroy my posts? He stated he gets so pissed off. The things I see and feel are real.
The "I" mentality is not good. Being pissed off is not good. I feel like a burning coal: every time I light up he steps on me. Always has to have the last word making accusations that don't exist. Things like "eye roll".
The vivid imagination? "you have to twist things", from Mr Twister himself. "Don't get all butthurt" comes from God knows what. "STFU" well you try it yourself. "minimal human interaction over a forum" I am a busy old man.
"Out of control ego"? Look in the mirror.

Oh man...why are we still talking about this?
WTF is wrong with you?

And yeah...when you don’t stop with your BS nonsense and lies about me - it pissed me off - what does that prove?
That I am unable to be neutral now?
Oh my God...I get pissed off by obnoxious people...how bizarre!!
"The things I see and feel are real.” - Okay?
And what...mine are not?
I must be inhuman!

"The "I" mentality is not good.” - Oh...you have transcended the self then...wow...amazing...you probably never use “I” in a sentence at all anymore.
Have you ever had an ego death JustMe?
Do you understand the “I” and the “self” and the “ego” and the “spirit” the “collective consciousness”?
You are seriously judging me on my relationship with the internal self (you must be a psychic...what an amazing Psi talent!).

Dude...you keep telling me to look in the mirror...I can see and admit the similarities that you are ignoring and projecting onto me.
I never claimed to be perfect or even above you or anyone else on this forum, and I certainly don’t think that either.
You’re assigning attributes to me that just don’t exist.
But I know you also don’t have any place trying to insult me with semantical arguments and more arrogant holier than thou type judgmental statements about my person.
You want respect but you offer none of your own.
You’re calling the kettle black....again.

And I didn’t start to ridicule you until you started to make ridiculous patronizing statements at me and my posts and direct challenges to me to prove my POV.
So yeah, STFU and don’t get butthurt because I answered you and you disliked it.
That is what this all boils down to.
You disagree with me, and personally dislike me.
Tell me I’m wrong?

I’ll let the forum decide if I’m "so vain" - because you know me so well JustMe (or not at all actually, your judgment is uncalled for, and actually forbidden in the Bible ) that I fear you are probably a bit biased in your views/dislike of me and what you think I represent or believe/don’t believe.
What is so threatening to you?
Your posts are filled full of assumptions about me.

Now you say I keep attacking your posts...that I keep starting this crap.
I didn’t say anything to you IN THIS THREAD until this post -



I’m not trying to “destroy your posts” WTF?
Honestly...that is...lol...I’m at a loss for words.
I answered you JustME...I posted verses that were counter to your own because you asked me to in the post I just posted above ^^^^.
So then you took it as a personal affront that I don’t fall lock step in with your own interpretations.
And I said that’s fine, believe what you want, and all was fine until you got offended by the Soylent Jesus.
You went on my “Merkabah” thread to post a meme calling my post “a literal pile of shit”, and I responded to you there which all can read here - https://www.infjs.com/threads/merkabah.27025/page-369#post-1100821
I think your skin is thicker than that...which leads me to think you just like to start shit with me for personal reasons.
Even if you think it’s in poor taste (no pun intended), it was still just a joke meme, and you took that and started in with personal judgements, assumptions and patronizing BS.
Then you freaking blame me for this whole redundant circle jerk?
So yes - *eye roll* because it’s the same old horse you keep beating, it’s dead...you can stop now...no one is attacking you...I never was...you started all this shit yourself, and you keep perpetuating it.
Enough already.

You can think and believe what you want, no one is saying you cannot or are wrong - and I can think and believe what I want, please stop trying to tell me why I am wrong in your eyes.
(I made it quite clear...again....several times that I wasn’t trying to prove anyone’s religion, beliefs, or anything else wrong - you asked me for verses, then called/call it an attack on your posts)
That has been my stance since the beginning and I have made that quite clear since the beginning.
Me posting verses that are contrary to your own after you asked me to prove it to you, doesn’t equal me attacking you or trying to “destroy your posts”.
And I’m not trying to get the last word - I just refuse to let the last word be full of assumptions, untruths, and lies about me.
I think that’s only fair.

Please stop with your personal judgements of me - I am asking you nicely.
If you can’t say anything nice then don’t say anything at all.
You seem to think I’m a horrible evil person JustMe, I find that really shortsighted and assumptive, not to mention, untethered from reality.
But, whatever....lol...it’s not like I’ve always worked in the service field and have always really enjoyed helping other people my entire life (oh my god I’m so vain!).
I still volunteer my time for others free of charge....but judge me some more...I really don’t have to prove anything to you.
You wouldn’t know me if we crashed into each other...and you certainly don’t know me based on forum posts.
Judgement is not yours...so please keep it to yourself and I will do the same.

 

[Deleted member 16771]

If I could save everyone on this forum I wanted to, it would not be someone that hates God. Where is the love?

Do you not see the contradiction here, Just? I don't think anyone said they 'hate God'. Pointing out the contradictions in an ancient text is not the same as antitheism.

Personally I'm troubled by those who resort to effectively condemning others to eternal damnation for the sake of proving how right they are. I can think of no greater act of vindictiveness.

Come on chaps, it's probably wise just to leave this conversation for a while. I came here looking for interesting perspectives on 'original sin'; you're doing the rest of us a disservice.

We all get fired up when we feel attacked, I'm not judging either of you. However, I suggest taking this into a private conversation where there is less of a temptation to appeal to an audience.

 

[Skarekrow]

If I could save everyone on this forum I wanted to, it would not be someone that hates God.
Where is the love?

Flat out lie.
Do it again and I’ll report you.