Organized Religion | INFJ Forum

Organized Religion

brightmoon

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Oct 2, 2015
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This has already likely been discussed on these boards, but I am going to bring it up again. What do you get out of practising a religion? Has it always been a part of your life? do you currently practice the same religion you were raised with?

I struggle with belonging to a particular faith even though you might say I do have various beliefs which one might call spiritual or mystical. I am not an atheist. Practising a faith and adhering to a defined set of dogma is problematic for me. Also belonging to institution that is not transparent is also a problem for me. Personally I was not raised with a religion. I have practised Christianity in the past, but not currently. I am drawn to Eastern religions and philosophies for various reasons.
 
I struggle with dogma too. My general argument against it is as follows: when we demand the assent of all, we must be appealing to reason as the means of collective consensus. It is possible to discuss God in abstract terms, using reasoning about the transcendent, and draw reasonable inferences.
However, all major religious doctrines I know of essentially attempt to link the transcendent with practical reality: that is, e.g., linking concrete events with abstract transcendent truths in a way which isn't reminiscent of subsuming the concrete under the abstract (the one way they seem to talk to each other).
So e.g. X idol is divine, or Y event is the root of salvation. All such events are intelligible solely as symbolic/mystical, as they neither conform to the 2 paradigms we can reason within: 1) reasoning wholly in the pure realm of logic (as eg with mathematics) or 2) reasoning by subsuming the concrete under the abstract, as eg showing how one can show concrete events' properties to be special cases of laws of physics.
Hence, ultimately any demand for assent of all just winds up having problems.
 
What do you get out of practising a religion? Has it always been a part of your life? do you currently practice the same religion you were raised with?

I was raised Catholic, but not in a deeply religious way. My other siblings went in different paths, not being religiously inclined, and my eldest brother considers himself an atheist. I am deeply Catholic today, and it was something I made my own. I can understand the reservation some have in regards to organised religion, and even the hostility towards it. I would probably have such a stance de facto, if I wasn't introduced to orgainised religion in my upbringing, Christianity-Catholicism in my instance. This topic is such a big one, and there are so many bears in the closet, and loose rope ends, that it almost becomes a headache to approach such topics in dialogue. Yet such dialogue - not debate, but a sharing, an unfolding of one's narrative, of one's soul even - really is the beginning of a beautiful exchange between persons - of real, and raw encounter. To see the face of another. Such encounter is rare, because such dialogue is rare between an atheist and a religist, a Buddhist and a Christian, a Christian and a Christian, and so on. Such dialogue consists in one person opening to the other, and the other truly listening (not simply waiting to speak/respond); and vice versa. A thread such as this can become a platform for such dialogue. I'd be interested in hearing more on what it means to you to be a spiritual person, to live a mystical life.

A bit of a tangent there. But yes, I was raised Catholic but I wouldn't say it was always part of my life. Since it's one thing to believe in certain things, which one feels to be true, and meaningful, and right, but that's ideology - things need to make a journey to the heart, to be lived, enfleshed, incarnated within oneself. That journey from head to heart - not that the head gets thrown away, but heart and head I believe need to coexist in a synergy. Only several years ago has this being the case for me in regards to my own beliefs.

The word dogma and doctrine are buzz words which trigger a strong emotional reaction of disdain, with images of chains, shackles, and a police stick. Yet the Eastern Orthodox theologian Lossky said: "Dogma [and doctrine] is mysticism par excellence." In other words, for me the doctrines and dogma's I believe in (i.e. God exists, God is a Trinity, the Resurrection of the dead, Jesus was fully man and fully God, God became man through a woman named Mary etc.) I do not see as mere abstract principles to be assented to through faith, but actual realities in which I believe I truly participate in my daily ordinary life. Thus even brushing my teeth is pregnant with meaning and purpose, when carried out in love for God - a simple intent. It sounds crazy, and in some ways it is! Sure, I could give a list of reasons behind why I believe all of this, never amounting to proof (what can be proved?) but serving as evidence of some kind, but I'm not interested in trying to proove anything here. I'm just sharing - and it can be scary to do this, to make oneself vulnerable to others and their views - but where else can genuine encounter and growth take place on both ends.

For me spirituality and religion are not anti-antithetical, religion being a communal body of those who share the same beliefs. Despite my affinity to solitude and independence I acknowledge my inner poverty and need for relationship, and thus for community, which doesn't impinge on my sense of autonomy in the least, quite the opposite. I don't even really like the word religion, but that comes to a matter of semantics.

So what do I get out of practicing a religion? I suppose I don't so much see it as practicing a religion, but practicing a way of life, a spiritual way of being, a mystical mode of existence which looks towards the Divine, but which is grounded in the grit and hardship of reality, and with the plight of human misery (especially the most broken and hurting) in my consciousnesses - it's anything but an escapism.

I mean I truly believe I am infinitely loved, no matter what I do or don't do, by a Creator. As an artist's works reflect himself, I see the personablity of animals, but especially of people, as signs of a the Divine Artist - thus signs of a Personal Creator who is Relationship and yearns for relationship with me. I 'practice my religion' not to win love, not to be saved, not to even become a better person, although some of these are aspects of it, but to simply enter into Intimacy itself - and I'm not speaking sexually here, but as an intimacy of companionship, of total oneness, completeness, security, friendship etc.

If I believe in a certain morality, I don't look down on those who contravene what I view as right, not at all. I realise I am the worst, because I can't even live up to what I believe. But that's okay, I'm fine with that, happy even, I try my best, and feel unconditionally loved. But if I believe in a certain ethical conduct it's not to me a set of rules to abide by, a set of prison bars. But, to use an analogy, like how a bird follows the laws of aerodynamics in order to fly. If it disobeyed these laws it wouldn't be free to fly. Thus such seeming regulations, are for me a means of liberation to enter deeper into union with the Divinity. In time it becomes so second-nature, and isn't so hard any more, like the bird that just flies and adheres to the laws of aerodynamics without even thinking of it - it just does and is.

Karl Marx said, "Religion is the opium of the masses." I don't know about other religions, I'm not very well acquainted with them in comparison to those who really know them. But at least in my experience, this saying ts true, but not in the way it was intended. Even though it can be in the way this saying was intended. For I truly feel on a perennial high deep within, an inner peace, freedom and joy, even in the midst of the usual roller coaster emotions of life. I can always return to the silence, and give a sigh of relief, that everything's taken care of, despite my ignorance. Yeah, I'm addicted to spiritual opium - not in a self-serving 'give me a fix' kind of way, but as in, 'yeah, this is for me', 'I'm at home'. I don't need drugs, well at least the literal kind.
 
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I'm Catholic, and I have no qualms with any aspect of it. My family was Catholic, and the major feast days, like Christmas, Easter, the Epiphany were both religious and social/cultural highlights in the year.

I was lapsed from religion for a few years, but returned to it as a teenager.

The dogmas of the Church are special to me, as very concise, distilled summaries of the empirical experiences of the faith, expressed as cogent concepts. The institutional structure of the Church, like any other organization, has many inefficiencies and unrealised potential; but these don't bug me too much, because it doesn't get in the way of one being able to practice the religious practices of one's beliefs.

The personalities, superstitions, shortcomings, etc. of other Catholics, or members of the hierarchy, likewise, don't bug me too much, because these things also don't really get in the way of what I'd call the essentials of my religion.

If I could change anything, it would be to bring back the Inquisition, to investigate, and punish wayward priests and bishops; but that kind of thing would just be satisfying, without being a change in the religion itself.
 
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The word dogma and doctrine are buzz words which trigger a strong emotional reaction of disdain, with images of chains, shackles, and a police stick.Yet the Eastern Orthodox theologian Lossky said: "Dogma [and doctrine] is mysticism par excellence." In other words, for me the doctrines and dogma's I believe in (i.e. God exists, God is a Trinity, the Resurrection of the dead, Jesus was fully man and fully God, God became man through a woman named Mary etc.) I do not see as mere abstract principles to be assented to through faith, but actual realities in which I believe I truly participate in my daily ordinary life.

I can completely understand this [MENTION=9]Nightowl [/MENTION] I think a spiritual framework that dogma and doctrine are likely necessary for most people to experience any kind of mystical or to live a spiritual life. I don't consider my experience to be especially strong or structured. Its more like living a good life. building relationships with my fellow people especially those that know me best (my wife and children) in that way of reaching out I approximate the divine. Also reaching further to do good in the world without the expectation of reward. Certain spiritual practices such as yoga and medication also facilitate this.

More to come later - life calls
 
I prefer the teaching of Orthodox Catholicism, however I am naturally bent to distrust authority figures but I do love the structure and deeper meanings behind the practices. I particularly like the idea that sometimes if they don't have an answer they would just come out and say "IDK it's a mystery". Thats just so honest to me coming from a protestant background.

I am not practicing right now though, I have a lot going on. Also I never was able to "break in" to the socialization aspect of it so I never got the connection to keep me there. Its unfortunate, I wish I had that.
 
The teachings of all religious bodies appears to have stained the sub-historical evolution of almost every country on earth. I'm not inclined to defend organized religion for what it has poisoned; such as the burning of books, the mass murder of women, other Christians, other Muslims, etc...

But I do respect members of any religion, assuming they hold humanist values in the process.
 
The teachings of all religious bodies appears to have stained the sub-historical evolution of almost every country on earth. I'm not inclined to defend organized religion for what it has poisoned; such as the burning of books, the mass murder of women, other Christians, other Muslims, etc...

But I do respect members of any religion, assuming they hold humanist values in the process.

Humanism and religion dont seem to blend.
 
On the one hand, I think there do exist moderate religious people who mainly focus on the humanism-oriented values religions teach, while ignoring some of the other things which may contradict those values.
On the other, I do think on a very fundamental level, most religions have a strong tinge of ultimately, God > human notions of wellbeing.

My theory about mysticism is that there are 2 aspects to it: a scientifically studiable aspect, which correlates brain states to experiences, but another also, namely the ethical aspect: what is the value and meaning human beings are to draw from this? This is exemplified by the fact that many debates atheist vs religious seem to ask about questions like can science answer the deepest questions in life, like why do we exist, and so on. On some level, I'd guess no -- why there is something rather than nothing or that class of questions, I don't think so.
I think there are plausible ways of interpreting the religions all to contain common symbolism embodying certain recurring philosophical ideas. But, they in addition contain droves of practical prescriptions on how to behave, and IMHO here ethics and the normative is mixing with the descriptive.

I am generally with Jung in his attitude that an intuitive attitude (that is, a focus on the symbolical) is the way to absorb the language of the prophets. But, in his own terms, this is the irrational factor -- it doesn't address the questions asked by the feeling function of worth and significance, and this rears its head in religion always. I personally think it is here that the true disagreements are most pronounced.
 
I think religion and politics is a in your face way of beginning to understand that while we physically live on the same world we do not consciously live in the same world.
 
Well basically my view tends to be that when we demand things of others besides ourselves we need a means of providing collective consensus. That inherently means aiming to be scientific and logical (two separate things, of course - logic means defining our views in a coherent way so an external party can see them, and being scientific means confining to statements about empirical facts).

I never understood the idea of so-called strong opining much. I mean, why even attempt to make a normative claim, a judgment, on matters people can reasonably disagree on very easily....
Having subjective preferences is natural, we all have it.
 
Why would anyone have a problem with organized religion?

NYC, Orthodox Jews in talks over ritual after herpes cases
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2015/02/21/nyc-orthodox-jews-in-talks-over-ritual-after-herpes-cases/23798751/

NEW YORK (AP) — With a swift swipe of his scalpel, Rabbi A. Romi Cohn circumcises the baby boy, then leans down and sucks the blood from the wound as prayers in Hebrew fill the Brooklyn synagogue.

The Orthodox Jewish tradition known as oral suction circumcision reaches back to biblical times but it has created a modern-day dilemma for New York City health officials, who have linked it to 17 cases of infant herpes since 2000. Two died and two others suffered brain damage.

[video=youtube;JkQXLNnEWWk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkQXLNnEWWk[/video]
 
Religion is not somewhere like a room to just walk into and be there. They teach of the milk and the meat, each to different levels of understanding. A lifetime with religion is better than one without it, to me. Vocabulary words are not usually learned by just reading them.
 
I follow a religion basically like Judaism. However, I'm not technically Jewish (by blood or the traditional conversion requirements), but my religious practises are more like the Karaite Jews.

What I get from religion is piece of mind. I can sleep knowing (because for me I think I know ;P like most people's thoughts and beliefs) that there's someone that knows why we suffer. Someone that knows what's going to happen to us. Someone that "has a plan" for lack of a better term. Because I believe that we don't know what's going to happen, and because a lot of things make hardly any sense to me- the way people treat each other, the way we go about our lives, etc. It helps me to think that at least someone has an idea of what's going on and knows better than anyone.

As for why I believe in an Elohim... I can't not. Everything around me proves that there is a creator to me. The complexity of the universe is far too indescribably amazing to be a happy coincidence. Everything I see my day-to-day life. It doesn't have to be a waterfall, I don't have to be in a plane, I don't have to be under the ocean to see just how detailed our reality is. Look at your skin. Look at the tiny squares that make up the clothes you wear. Look at them next to the wooden night stand beside you. Think about the internet- can you really believe there's a net work that allows people to communicate from every corner of the earth? And love? How do you explain that? All these amazing chemicals in our bodies that bring about different effects. And music? How can I describe music? I think music is one of the most universal things; most people love music, whatever kind of music that is. How can explain singing? How is singing different than talking? I'm sure there's scientific answers to these questions, but you'd be missing the point. To me, someone still created the thing that went "bang" in the first place.

And I'm not trying to convince anyone to be religious, I'm just trying to say why I am.