Nietzsche meets Wittgenstein | INFJ Forum

Nietzsche meets Wittgenstein

Discussion in 'Philosophy and Religion' started by Ren, Jan 15, 2021.

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  1. Ren

    Ren Pin's android / Baroque Spinoza / ≅ ENFJ

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    This thread is intended to explore the commonalities in Wittgenstein's and Nietzsche's philosophies.

    *drumroll*

    [​IMG]

    A good starting point, I think, is that Wittgenstein and Nietzsche share a fundamental rejection of traditional metaphysics. Wittgenstein openly sought to reveal metaphysics as nonsense with his theory of logical atomism; while Heidegger says at several junctures of Being and Time that Western metaphysics ended with Nietzsche. I think that Nietzsche's critique of what he calls "hidden worlds" can be seen as a metaphorical equivalent of Wittgenstein's description of his post-metaphysical philosophy as "a battle against the bewitchment of our intelligence by means of language" (i.e. the language of metaphysics).

    That being said, each thinker has a peculiar and quite distinct ontology. What there is, from Wittgenstein's viewpoint, are facts or states of affairs. For Nietzsche there is (in my reading of him) will to power. Neither thinker wants to give a metaphysical definition of these ontological concepts, so we must assume that both Wittgensteinian facts and Nietzschean will to power are immanent within the world around us. In other words, they are not "hidden" under layers of intangible substances. Importantly, they cannot be reduced to essences, either.



    I think it is the commitment to the un-hiddenness of the structure of the world which brings these two philosophers together. There is something aesthetic, perhaps almost religious, about their conception of truth. For them, the truth shows itself, it is something that we can see. Falsity has no essence except as the looking away from truth, either by means of hidden worlds (Nietzsche), abstruse metaphysical language or logical mistakes (Wittgenstein). Importantly, this implies that truth is not strictly a product of reason. A logically incorrect statement only fails to capture the truth of the fact---it is a failure of seeing, in a sense. Nietzsche also seeks clarity of vision, and though admittedly he emphasises intuition over logic, I don't think Wittgenstein conceives of logic in the way traditional logicians do. In his words, "logic pervades the world".

    The trick is to investigate whether facts and will to power can be conceptually reconciled, and also whether, assuming this can be done, the result is/is not a metaphysical system unto itself. Are Wittgensteinian facts inherently perspectivistic? Is Nietzschean will to power translatable into facts?

    Friends, the floor is yours!

    PS. Let me know if I should word things in a simpler way for the philosophy dilettantes among us. :p
     
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  2. Wyote

    Wyote Meka Istaqa
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    Perhaps working backwards, from each of their frameworks will be helpful. What are commonalities of hidden worlds and logical mistakes.
    What notions can be formed in bringing these two together.

    Yes Yes

    No No


    idk what I'm doing
     
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    Ren

    Ren Pin's android / Baroque Spinoza / ≅ ENFJ

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    Excellent suggestion, Wy.

    I'll put some thought into this.
     
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  4. Pin

    Pin "Magnificent Bastard" / Ren's Counterpart

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    I'm more interested in Nietzsche's ethical philosophy than Wittgenstein's work generally speaking.
     
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    Ren

    Ren Pin's android / Baroque Spinoza / ≅ ENFJ

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    Why?
     
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  6. Pin

    Pin "Magnificent Bastard" / Ren's Counterpart

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    Wittgenstein wrote a long-ass book to basically say, maybe there's a God. Lots of stuff about language, logic. I just don't understand why he did anything.

    My top three favorite philosophers now:
    1) Aristotle makes the most sense to me.
    2) Aquinas comes second.
    3) Anascombe third.
     
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  7. Wyote

    Wyote Meka Istaqa
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    I'm excited to see where this goes, this is a fun topic :)
     
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  8. Pin

    Pin "Magnificent Bastard" / Ren's Counterpart

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    Ren needs to read more work by Aurelius Augustinus.

    @Ren

    Augustine of Hippo.
     
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  9. Wyote

    Wyote Meka Istaqa
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    Why?
     
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  10. Pin

    Pin "Magnificent Bastard" / Ren's Counterpart

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    It's a good precursor to understanding the claims that Aquinas makes but Aquinas is way better.
     
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  11. Wyote

    Wyote Meka Istaqa
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    That doesn't explain anything exactly, but ok lol
     
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  12. Pin

    Pin "Magnificent Bastard" / Ren's Counterpart

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    Basically, Augustine says that earth is totally screwed because people are sinful. Life sucks almost all of the time but heaven is awesome.

    Aquinas says that earth isn't totally bad, it can be great but not as great as heaven.
     
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  13. Pin

    Pin "Magnificent Bastard" / Ren's Counterpart

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    Aquinas is the GOAT.
     
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  14. Wyote

    Wyote Meka Istaqa
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    Right, I know that.
    What I meant was you aren't explaining why you feel that Ren needs to read these things.
     
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  15. Pin

    Pin "Magnificent Bastard" / Ren's Counterpart

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    I think they're more hopeful than Nietzsche, Camus, and Sartre.

    What I will say is this, Camus is the most hopeful and pleasant to read of the three when he writes about playing on the beach (hard to find that essay).
     
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  16. Sidis Coruscatis

    Sidis Coruscatis Community Member

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    I sure can't wait to get back to this in a couple of weeks. :p

    I remember browsing through Tractatus about a year ago and I immediately saw some parallels, but I can't find anything now. That was also when I was in the middle of reading BGE, so the connections would have been fresher.
     
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  17. Pin

    Pin "Magnificent Bastard" / Ren's Counterpart

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    Ren probably has read Aristotle, Augustine, and Aquinas but I really enjoy their style.

    @Ren

    Sorry to hijack the thread with my pre-existentialism suggestions.
     
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    Ren

    Ren Pin's android / Baroque Spinoza / ≅ ENFJ

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    [​IMG]
     
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  19. Pin

    Pin "Magnificent Bastard" / Ren's Counterpart

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    This guy is probably the greatest philosopher in history.
     
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    Ren

    Ren Pin's android / Baroque Spinoza / ≅ ENFJ

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    Not at all, go on, it's great to make connections in that way, and that's also what'll keep the thread alive.

    I've read some writings of Aristotle, Augustine and Aquinas, but of course, not all their work. I've read more Aristotle in the text, Augustine/Aquinas more through other philosophers.

    All three are great in their own way, though I think Aristotle is the most metaphysically and ethically original of the three. After all, he influenced both (though Plato more so for Augustine).
     
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