Logical Fallacies

Craig Weiler said:
The problem with the whole logical fallacy argument is that it discounts some of the enormous strengths of emotionally based thought.

It makes no room for synchronicity, for example, which typically occurs in times of need, when no apparent solution is available. The odds of synchronicity occurring are next to impossible, so they cannot be imagined in any logical way. It also typically makes no room for psi, where "Knowing" comes right out of the blue. There is nothing logical about psi.

The people who are most likely to be able to take advantage of these extra sensory talents are, by nature, wired to think constantly outside the box. That would be the INFJ's on this forum. (me inlcuded btw.) If you understand that their lack of logic will normally provide the most successful outcome for them, -against all odds- because of who they are and the talents the possess, you'll be able to cut them some slack.
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It would be logical to say "I know this is true based on my extra sensory talents."
It wouldn't be logical to say "I know this is true because herp-a-derp derp logical fallacy" and try to justify extra sensory revelations using fail reasoning.
 
Feelings said:
It would be logical to say "I know this is true based on my extra sensory talents."
It wouldn't be logical to say "I know this is true because herp-a-derp derp logical fallacy" and try to justify extra sensory revelations using fail reasoning.
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I understand what you're saying. Here's the basic argument I'm making:

People who are highly sensitive to ESP and highly creative have those traits in abundance at the expense of their logical abilities. Very, very few people have an abundance of both creativity and logical ability. Nor, I might add, is it necessary. The world needs both types; nature set us up to be ideally suited to function as a member of a tribe, not as a stand-alone meat suit. We're supposed to be different from each other and work together. It maximizes our survival potential.
 
Craig Weiler said:
I understand what you're saying. Here's the basic argument I'm making:

People who are highly sensitive to ESP and highly creative have those traits in abundance at the expense of their logical abilities. Very, very few people have an abundance of both creativity and logical ability. Nor, I might add, is it necessary. The world needs both types; nature set us up to be ideally suited to function as a member of a tribe, not as a stand-alone meat suit. We're supposed to be different from each other and work together. It maximizes our survival potential.
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Your argument, while very well could be correct, is irrelevant. It doesn't matter how talented or useful someone is. If they commit a logical fallacy, then it's still a logical fallacy.
 
Feelings said:
Your argument, while very well could be correct, is irrelevant. It doesn't matter how talented or useful someone is. If they commit a logical fallacy, then it's still a logical fallacy.
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I'm just saying that it's more complicated than that.
 
Craig Weiler said:
Not necessarily. Highly intuitive people often get valuable information through how they feel about something. Logic and reasoning are necessarily based on available information, and that can only take you so far. For example, if an intuitive gets a bad feeling about a job they've been offered, even though everything they know about the job seems like it will be a good one, they should turn it down. Logically, you can't really know how it's going to turn out until you've committed yourself. So, feelings would be more important information in this case.

Most situations in life are like this. You don't have all the available information, so you go with your gut. That will generally be a successful strategy for feeling based people.
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Okay, you've set up a hypothetical situation in which you don't take a job based on some feeling. Why is this useful? I really don't understand. There would be some sort of basis for feeling "funny" about somebody or a company. That's not an "intuitive" trait, it's a human trait. Sure, if you think something is off, then don't take the job. But don't rack that up to being about "intuitives".

Also, gut decisions are based on past experiences and science says that you shouldn't trust your gut unless you've had a lot of experiences and learned from your mistakes.

It's not elitist. People who have higher than average ESP are almost always very creative types who think outside the box. It's just a talent set with positive and negative attributes. It's one of many and not better or worse than the others.
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I said your statement was elitist. And ESP is bullshit by the way. There's actually a great Penn and Teller about ESP.

[video=youtube;-Y55WPJs-R4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Y55WPJs-R4[/video]


Psi is not a superpower, I never claimed it was. The claim is simply that people who are feeling based, particularly INFJ's, typically have higher than average ESP and will be far more successful than average at using feeling based solutions to problems in their lives.
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It's treated like it's some special power. Again, ESP is bullshit. Of course infjs pay attention to their emotions, it's in the definition of infj.

As for the part I've put in bold. Please reconsider that statement. It is demonstrably false. No one knows or understands how quantum physics works, but no one would claim that it doesn't exist.
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There are at least studies on quantum physics and it is demonstrable and testable. And people know how some of it exists...give science at least some credit.

I claim that ESP doesn't exist because 9 year old girl disproved it. She was featured in a different Penn and Teller called "New Age Medicine".
 
Craig Weiler said:
You say this with such certainty, but having read a few books on quantum physics, I know that your answer has no basis in experimental evidence. There is no proof of any dimensions other than the four we're already aware of. It is illogical to state something as fact when it is not.

The very best proof for the observer effect comes from a very recent study by senior researcher at IONS, Dean Radin. The results haven't been published yet, but he put a brief synopsis on his blog:
http://deanradin.blogspot.com/2012/01/consciousness-and-double-slit.html

To the surprise of no one except die hard materialists, it looks like consciousness is the cause of the observer effect. The trouble is, no one knows exactly what consciousness is. Neuroscience doesn't have the answer. They have no idea how you get from firing neurons to happiness. They understand what the body and mind do in many conscious states, but not how you get from something material, to something immaterial.

To further the problem, consciousness happens to be pretty important to us. There is no way to experience the world without it. It's not a trivial matter.

And one more thing: Little technical point here: Matter doesn't change when it's observed, it doesn't exist until it's observed. The wave that InvisibleJim is talking about is actually a wave function, (a.k.a. a probability cloud.) It isn't a "thing" until it's observed.
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I'm pretty sure that's Reductio ad Hitlerum

 
subwayrider said:
I'm pretty sure that's Reductio ad Hitlerum

– comparing an opponent or their argument to Hitler or Nazism in an attempt to associate a position with one that is universally reviled

Sorry, sir, but Jim is simply not a Nazi.
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WTF??? Are you using a random fallacy generator? I never mentioned Nazism, let alone compared Jim to Hitler. Where did you get that idea?
 
Craig Weiler said:
WTF??? Are you using a random fallacy generator? I never mentioned Nazism, let alone compared Jim to Hitler. Where did you get that idea?
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You are a Sensor incapable of seeing my iNtuition.
 
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bickelz said:
Isn't he welsh though? Pretty much the same thing if you ask me.
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sorry, bickelz, but I'm afraid that's

Mind projection fallacy – when one considers the way he sees the world as the way the world really is.
 
subwayrider said:
sorry, bickelz, but I'm afraid that's

Mind projection fallacy – when one considers the way he sees the world as the way the world really is.
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Damn, I was caught. You're going to really start pissing people off in about 3 days btw.
 
bickelz said:
Damn, I was caught. You're going to really start pissing people off in about 3 days btw.
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well, at least you'll still be my friend. Right?
 
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[MENTION=4717]subwayrider[/MENTION] I had sex with your second cousin twice removed and she liked it so much that she made me apple pie.
 
bionic said:
[MENTION=4717]subwayrider[/MENTION] I had sex with your second cousin twice removed and she liked it so much that she made me apple pie.
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I do believe that's

hypostatization – a fallacy of ambiguity, when an abstraction (abstract belief or hypothetical construct) is treated as if it were a concrete, real event or physical entity. In other words, it is the error of treating as a "real thing" something which is not a real thing, but merely an idea.
 
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