[INFJ] - Jung description of Ni... | INFJ Forum

[INFJ] Jung description of Ni...

LucyJr

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Aug 10, 2013
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Jung’s Portrait of the INFJ / INTJ Types

by Carl Gustav Jung, first published 1921

Introverted iNtuition (Ni) in general

Intuition, in the introverted attitude, is directed upon the inner object, a term we might justly apply to the elements of the unconscious. For the relation of inner objects to consciousness is entirely analogous to that of outer objects, although theirs is a psychological and not a physical reality. Inner objects appear to the intuitive perception as subjective images of things, which, though not met with in external experience, really determine the contents of the unconscious, i.e. the collective unconscious, in the last resort. Naturally, in their per se character, these contents are, not accessible to experience, a quality which they have in common with the outer object. For just as outer objects correspond only relatively with our perceptions of them, so the phenomenal forms of the inner object are also relative; products of their (to us) inaccessible essence and of the peculiar nature of the intuitive function. Like sensation, intuition also has its subjective factor, which is suppressed to the farthest limit in the extraverted intuition, but which becomes the decisive factor in the intuition of the introvert. Although this intuition may receive its impetus from outer objects, it is never arrested by the external possibilities, but stays with that factor which the outer object releases within.

Whereas introverted sensation is mainly confined to the perception of particular innervation phenomena by way of the unconscious, and does not go beyond them, intuition represses this side of the subjective factor and perceives the image which has really occasioned the innervation. Supposing, for instance, a man is overtaken by a psychogenic attack of giddiness. Sensation is arrested by the peculiar character of this innervation-disturbance, perceiving all its qualities, its intensity, its transient course, the nature of its origin and disappearance in their every detail, without raising the smallest inquiry concerning the nature of the thing which produced the disturbance, or advancing anything as to its content. Intuition, on the other hand, receives from the sensation only the impetus to immediate activity; it peers behind the scenes, quickly perceiving the inner image that gave rise to the specific phenomenon, i.e. the attack of vertigo, in the present case. It sees the image of a tottering man pierced through the heart by an arrow. This image fascinates the intuitive activity; it is arrested by it, and seeks to explore every detail of it. It holds fast to the vision, observing with the liveliest interest how the picture changes, unfolds further, and finally fades. In this way introverted intuition perceives all the background processes of consciousness with almost the same distinctness as extraverted sensation senses outer objects. For intuition, therefore, the unconscious images attain to the dignity of things or objects. But, because intuition excludes the co-operation of sensation, it obtains either no knowledge at all or at the best a very inadequate awareness of the innervation-disturbances or of the physical effects produced by the unconscious images. Accordingly, the images appear as though detached from the subject, as though existing in themselves without relation to the person.

Consequently, in the above-mentioned example, the introverted intuitive, when affected by the giddiness, would not imagine that the perceived image might also in some way refer to himself. Naturally, to one who is rationally orientated, such a thing seems almost unthinkable, but it is none the less a fact, and I have often experienced it in my dealings with this type.

The remarkable indifference of the extraverted intuitive in respect to outer objects is shared by the introverted intuitive in relation to the inner objects. Just as the extraverted intuitive is continually scenting out new possibilities, which he pursues with an equal unconcern both for his own welfare and for that of others, pressing on quite heedless of human considerations, tearing down what has only just been established in his everlasting search for change, so the introverted intuitive moves from image to image, chasing after every possibility in the teeming womb of the unconscious, without establishing any connection between the phenomenon and himself. Just as the world can never become a moral problem for the man who merely senses it, so the world of images is never a moral problem to the intuitive. To the one just as much as to the other, it is an aesthenic problem, a question of perception, a ‘sensation’. In this way, the consciousness of his own bodily existence fades from the introverted intuitive’s view, as does its effect upon others. The extraverted standpoint would say of him: ‘Reality has no existence for him; he gives himself up to fruitless phantasies’. A perception of the unconscious images, produced in such inexhaustible abundance by the creative energy of life, is of course fruitless from the standpoint of immediate utility. But, since these images represent possible ways of viewing life, which in given circumstances have the power to provide a new energic potential, this function, which to the outer world is the strangest of all, is as indispensable to the total psychic economy as is the corresponding human type to the psychic life of a people. Had this type not existed, there would have been no prophets in Israel.

Introverted intuition apprehends the images which arise from the a priori, i.e. the inherited foundations of the unconscious mind. These archetypes, whose innermost nature is inaccessible to experience, represent the precipitate of psychic functioning of the whole ancestral line, i.e. the heaped-up, or pooled, experiences of organic existence in general, a million times repeated, and condensed into types. Hence, in these archetypes all experiences are represented which since primeval time have happened on this planet. Their archetypal distinctness is the more marked, the more frequently and intensely they have been experienced. The archetype would be – to borrow from Kant – the noumenon of the image which intuition perceives and, in perceiving, creates.

Since the unconscious is not just something that lies there, like a psychic caput mortuum, but is something that coexists and experiences inner transformations which are inherently related to general events, introverted intuition, through its perception of inner processes, gives certain data which may possess supreme importance for the comprehension of general occurrences: it can even foresee new possibilities in more or less clear outline, as well as the event which later actually transpires. Its prophetic prevision is to be explained from its relation to the archetypes which represent the law-determined course of all experienceable things.

The Introverted Intuitive [INTJ / INFJ] Type

The peculiar nature of introverted intuition, when given the priority, also produces a peculiar type of man, viz. the mystical dreamer and seer on the one hand, or the fantastical crank and artist on the other. The latter might be regarded as the normal case, since there is a general tendency of this type to confine himself to the perceptive character of intuition. As a rule, the intuitive stops at perception; perception is his principal problem, and – in the case of a productive artist-the shaping of perception. But the crank contents himself with the intuition by which he himself is shaped and determined. Intensification of intuition naturally often results in an extraordinary aloofness of the individual from tangible reality; he may even become a complete enigma to his own immediate circle.

If an artist, he reveals extraordinary, remote things in his art, which in iridescent profusion embrace both the significant and the banal, the lovely and the grotesque, the whimsical and the sublime. If not an artist, he is frequently an unappreciated genius, a great man ‘gone wrong’, a sort of wise simpleton, a figure for ‘psychological’ novels.

Although it is not altogether in the line of the introverted intuitive type to make of perception a moral problem, since a certain reinforcement of the rational functions is required for this, yet even a relatively slight differentiation of judgment would suffice to transfer intuitive perception from the purely æsthetic into the moral sphere. A variety of this type is thus produced which differs essentially from its æsthetic form, although none the less characteristic of the introverted intuitive. The moral problem comes into being when the intuitive tries to relate himself to his vision, when he is no longer satisfied with mere perception and its æsthetic shaping and estimation, but confronts the question: What does this mean for me and for the world? What emerges from this vision in the way of a duty or task, either for me or for the world? The pure intuitive who represses judgment or possesses it only under the spell of perception never meets this question fundamentally, since his only problem is the How of perception. He, therefore, finds the moral problem unintelligible, even absurd, and as far as possible forbids his thoughts to dwell upon the disconcerting vision. It is different with the morally orientated intuitive. He concerns himself with the meaning of his vision; he troubles less about its further æsthetic possibilities than about the possible moral effects which emerge from its intrinsic significance. His judgment allows him to discern, though often only darkly, that he, as a man and as a totality, is in some way inter-related with his vision, that it is something which cannot just be perceived but which also would fain become the life of the subject. Through this realization he feels bound to transform his vision into his own life. But, since he tends to rely exclusively upon his vision, his moral effort becomes one-sided; he makes himself and his life symbolic, adapted, it is true, to the inner and eternal meaning of events, but unadapted to the actual present-day reality. Therewith he also deprives himself of any influence upon it, because he remains unintelligible. His language is not that which is commonly spoken – it becomes too subjective. His argument lacks convincing reason. He can only confess or pronounce. His is the ‘voice of one crying in the wilderness’.

The introverted intuitive’s chief repression falls upon the sensation of the object. His unconscious is characterized by this fact. For we find in his unconscious a compensatory extraverted sensation function of an archaic character. The unconscious personality may, therefore, best be described as an extraverted sensation-type of a rather low and primitive order. Impulsiveness and unrestraint are the characters of this sensation, combined with an extraordinary dependence upon the sense impression. This latter quality is a compensation to the thin upper air of the conscious attitude, giving it a certain weight, so that complete ‘sublimation’ is prevented. But if, through a forced exaggeration of the conscious attitude, a complete subordination to the inner perception should develop, the unconscious becomes an opposition, giving rise to compulsive sensations whose excessive dependence upon the object is in frank conflict with the conscious attitude. The form of neurosis is a compulsion-neurosis, exhibiting symptoms that are partly hypochondriacal manifestations, partly hypersensibility of the sense organs and partly compulsive ties to definite persons or other objects.




What do you think about this? Especially the bolded parts?
 
break it out, sentence by sentence. (this is very dense stuff)
 
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Whereas introverted sensation is mainly confined to the perception of particular innervation phenomena by way of the unconscious, and does not go beyond them, intuition represses this side of the subjective factor and perceives the image which has really occasioned the innervation.

lets talk about innervations
 
lets talk about innervations

I had to look up the definition of innervation. It sounds kinky.

Noun 1. innervation - the neural or electrical arousal of an organ or muscle or gland
excitation, irritation

arousal - a state of heightened physiological activity

2. innervation - the distribution of nerve fibers to an organ or body region
 
Jung should have hired a translator to put his work into plain english
 
I used to be an artist in highschool. Now I am more of a morally oriented intuitive. I am also starting to look more into impacting the world in a better way rather than constantly working on my inner self.
 
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Yeah I don't really feel like he's saying anything that isn't found in any run of the mill mbti description of introverted intuitives. Their world can be abstract and detached from physical reality and personal meaning. Reminds me more of a type 5 description than anything else. I do feel a bit jealous of Si though after reading this which appears to, at a glance, sense the personal implications of perceived inner sensations whereas the intuitive who lacks the felt personal connection would apparently have to work a bit harder.
 
IEI (INFp) in Socionics is INFJ in MBTI

Here is a description of INFPs (INFJs in MBTI)

IEIs typically have richly developed mental landscapes. They are highly attuned to trends, patterns, and conceptual connections of past behaviors, experiences, relationships, and their role in the world. They are often highly reflective and imaginative, and the fantastic tendencies of IEIs are often vivid and complex. Many IEIs find an inner calling to express their unique perspectives, and often find ways to make use of a myriad of expressive forms, sometimes including poetry, novels, storytelling, photography, or other media.

IEIs may also demonstrate their phrenic activities by assessing connections, patterns, and implications of events in their experience, often with a human slant. They may seek to understand the dynamics and mechanisms of people, groups, relationships, situations, or experiences. They make judgments and assessments of others based on past trends and behaviors and seek to explain what makes others tick.

IEIs not infrequently may appear to tend to exhibit a mystical and intangible quality to their insights, and may base their ideas on observations that are not readily apparent to others. This causes the ideas of IEIs to be sometimes frustrating and confusing for more practically minded individuals. IEIs sometimes exacerbate this problem by getting lost in their thoughts, and are often prone to having difficulty expressing their inner perceptions to others effectively.

Often IEIs exhibit a dreamy and gentle demeanor. They can come across as fickle, indecisive and vapid, and their fantasies can be often esoteric; they often may seem idealistic and focused on unrealistic or other-worldly utopias. They also can demonstrate a lack of attentiveness to daily affairs, and sometimes a generally withdrawn, inactive deportment. At the same time, they sometimes can be prophetic, prescient, and profound in their visions, and sometimes reflect a far more rebellious, aggressive, or outspoken demeanor.



Filatova Description of INFps

With respect to his own abilities and talents there is an internal, frequently secret, conviction that he exceeds others in his spiritual aristocratism, viewing himself as a member of an elite of humanity, but usually he does not openly demonstrate this perception.

Introverted intuition in the leading bloc impedes him seeing himself from the outside. He finds it difficult to objectively evaluate his behavior, and is inclined to justify himself in everything. His inclination to distance himself from reality and difficulties in self-appraisal can lead to egocentrism and excessive submersion in his own world.

His professional activity and productivity are unpredictable, since his capacity for work highly depends on his internal state: short flashes of energetic activity alternate with periods of prolonged inaction. As a rule, he his energy drive is lowered, and he therefore he finds it difficult to continuously exert himself. The inherent to him asthenia – perceived weakness, exhaustion, and low energy – is frequently compensated for by the need for a prolonged night sleep. For this very reason, without the necessary moral support, he frequently finds himself at a lower social position than would correspond with his abilities. Thus IEI is prone to regard energetic people, whom hold a higher social status, with a secret sense of envy, to consider that life has wronged him, and, involuntarily trying to justify himself, he seeks external factors that could be faulted for his misfortunes. Meanwhile, he comforts himself in the fact that his high sensitivity and brittleness of psyche, refinement of his principles and ideals, do not permit him to act by the same methods as others. Thus, he justifies his own passivity by viewing himself above the surrounding world, thereby psychologically shielding himself. He finds it difficult to accept responsibility for everything that happens to him. He prefers to lay responsibility on external factors, especially if things are going badly. IEI rarely takes up routine work of any kind, and if he does he may try to shirk from it and carry it out negligently.



The Imaginative INFp

"The Imaginative INFp"

If the INFp had a theme song, it would go thusly:

“Vado, ma dove? Oh dei!
Se de’ tormenti suoi, se de’ sospiri miei
Non sente il ciel pietа.

Tu che mi parli al core
Guida I miei passi, amore;
Tu quel ritegno or togli
Che dubitar mi fа.”

**
“I go – but where, o gods
since for his torment and my pleas
Heaven offers no pity?

You who speak to my heart,
Guide my steps, dear love;
Ease that uncertainty,
That urges me to doubt.”

- LORENZO DA PONTE (1749-1838)

The INFp is perpetually caught within that “pondering repose of If” that Herman Melville wrote of in Moby-Dick. He is forever in doubt. He never truly feels at ease with the ways of this world, its people and its circumstances. It is not that he does not understand things – but that he doubts his own understanding. In fact, he is capable of an understanding on a far more visceral level than his peers are. He “feels” that he has understood something rather than “knows” that this is the case. True understanding for an INFp is forever linked with the word “revelation.” He will never claim to have deduced an understanding, but will instead say that the truth was “revealed” to him.


Sort of simillar, isn't it? Of course, many of this is not true, but I've taken excerpts only from the articles. Those of you who are familiar with Socionics know the articles I think.

How or what do you think about this?
 
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"Intuition
Introverted intuition is directed to the inner object, a term that might justly be applied to the contents of the unconscious. The relation of inner objects to consciousness is entirely analogous to that of outer objects, though their reality is not physical but psychic. They appear to intuitive perception as subjective images of things which, though not to be met with in the outside world, constitute the contents of the unconscious, and of the collective unconscious in particular. These contents per se are naturally not accessible to experience, a quality they have in common wit external objects. For just as external objects correspond only relatively to our perception of them, so the phenomenal forms of the inner objects are also relative- products of their (to us) inaccessible essence and of the peculiar nature of the intuitive function.

Like sensation, intuition has its subjective factor, which is suppressed, as much as possible in the extraverted attitude but is the decisive factor in the intuition of the introvert. Although his intuition may be stimulated by external objects, it does not concern itself with external possibilities but with what the external object has released with in him Whereas introverted sensation is mainly restricted to the perception, via the unconscious, of the phenomena of innervation and is arrested there, introverted intuition suppresses this side of the subjective factor and perceives the images that caused the innervation. Supposing, for instance, a man is overtaken by an attack of psychogenic vertigo. Sensation is arrested by the peculiar nature of its disturbance of innervation, perceiving all its qualities, its intensity, its course, how it arose and how it passed, but not advancing beyond that to its content, to the thing that caused the disturbance. Intuition , on the other hand, receives from sensation only the impetus to its own immediate activity; it peers behind the scenes, quickly perceiving the inner image that gave rise to this particular form of expression- the attack of vertigo. It sees the image of a tottering man pierced through the heart by an arrow. This image fascinates the intuitive activity; it is arrested by it, and seeks to explore every detail of it. It holds fast to the vision, observing with the liveliest interest ho the picture changes, unfolds, and finally fades."

CG Jung CW psychological types pa 655 656
 
I had to look up the definition of innervation. It sounds kinky.
Noun 1. innervation - the neural or electrical arousal of an organ or muscle or gland
excitation, irritation

arousal - a state of heightened physiological activity

2. innervation - the distribution of nerve fibers to an organ or body region

Two noteworthy chapters late in The Principles are “The Emotions” and “Will.” The first sets out the theory — also enunciated by the Danish physiologist Carl Lange — that emotion follows, rather than causes, its bodily expression: “Common-sense says, we lose our fortune, are sorry and weep; we meet a bear, are frightened and run; we are insulted by a rival, are angry and strike. The hypothesis here to be defended says that this order of sequence is incorrect…that we feel sorry because we cry, angry because we strike, afraid because we tremble…” (PP 1065–6). The significance of this view, according to James, is that our emotions are tied in with our bodily expressions. What, he asks, would grief be “without its tears, its sobs, its suffocation of the heart, its pang in the breast-bone?” Not an emotion, James answers, for a “purely disembodied human emotion is a nonentity” (PP 1068).
In his chapter on “Will” James opposes the theory of his contemporary Wilhelm Wundt that there is one special feeling — a “feeling of innervation” — present in all intentional action. In his survey of a range of cases, James finds that some actions involve an act of resolve or of outgoing nervous energy, but others do not. For example:
I sit at table after dinner and find myself from time to time taking nuts or raisins out of the dish and eating them. My dinner properly is over, and in the heat of the conversation I am hardly aware of what I do; but the perception of the fruit, and the fleeting notion that I may eat it, seem fatally to bring the act about. There is certainly no express fiat here;… (PP 1131).​
The chapter on “Will” also contains striking passages that anticipate the concerns of The Varieties of Religious Experience: about moods, “changes of heart,” and “awakenings of conscience.” These, James observes, may affect the “whole scale of values of our motives and impulses” (PP 1140).
.http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/james/
 
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For just as outer objects correspond only relatively with our perceptions of them, so the phenomenal forms of the inner object are also relative; products of their (to us) inaccessible essence and of the peculiar nature of the intuitive function

....Supposing, for instance, a man is overtaken by a psychogenic [A Psychogenic effect is one that originates from the mind instead of another physical organ]attack of giddiness....

Intuition.... receives from the sensation only the impetus to immediate activity; it peers behind the scenes, quickly perceiving the inner image that gave rise to the specific phenomenon, i.e. the attack of vertigo, in the present case.

It sees the image of a tottering man pierced through the heart by an arrow.

This image fascinates the intuitive activity; it is arrested by it, and seeks to explore every detail of it. It holds fast to the vision, observing with the liveliest interest how the picture changes, unfolds further, and finally fades. In this way introverted intuition perceives all the background processes of consciousness with almost the same distinctness as extraverted sensation senses outer objects.

For intuition, therefore, the unconscious images attain to the dignity of things or objects. But, because intuition excludes the co-operation of sensation, it obtains either no knowledge at all or at the best a very inadequate awareness of the innervation-disturbances or of the physical effects produced by the unconscious images.

Accordingly, the images appear as though detached from the subject, as though existing in themselves without relation to the person.

.

This text is confusing as it first names the psychogenic attack a merely giddiness then later labels is as vertigo and ascribing to it a distinct inner image, that of "a tottering man pierced through the heart by an arrow". Still the point comes across clearly.
 
Could please anyone tell what they think about the texts I posted? Some sound advice from more mature members?
 
Whereas introverted sensation is mainly confined to the perception of particular innervation phenomena by way of the unconscious, and does not go beyond them, intuition represses this side of the subjective factor and perceives the image which has really occasioned the innervation.


this is pretty interesting.I've heard it said before that Ni develops in conjunction with detaching yourself mentally from your internal sensations (Si) which indirectly facilitates the development of Se. in socionics it's referred to as the "intuition of time" which in jung's version probably means the relationship (cause and effect) between one mental image to another. without that imaginary context, there would be no perception of time moving as a flow and immediate sensations (Si) would take priority... i've heard people with weak Ni describe themselves as having time blindness.
 
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this is pretty interesting.I've heard it said before that Ni develops in conjunction with detaching yourself mentally from your internal sensations (Si) which indirectly facilitates the development of Se. in socionics it's referred to as the "intuition of time" which in jung's version probably means the relationship (cause and effect) between one mental image to another. without that imaginary context, there would be no perception of time moving as a flow and immediate sensations (Si) would take priority... i've heard people with weak Ni describe themselves as having time blindness.
I've heard people with 'immature' Ni describe themselfs as being blind for real at times...they are too detached from reality, very concentrated and they 'forget' to see things.
 
that was very interesting but as an artist with a tertiary education in arts i find it difficult to get past the limitations of the ideas about art and artists that are presented here. its like Jung sees art as being some sort of immature craft of the imagination, ie no relationship with application or action in the world. that is strikingly naive. he is so self assured and so easy in his dismissal of the complexity of the whole canon of western art, yet so unsophisticated in his approach to engaging with it. sometimes i have even thought that this could be a problem experienced by psychologists, that they seem to believe art is nothing more than some sort of toy of the mind.
 
LucyJr, sorry if this seems like an obvious question, and i hope you dont mind me asking, but are you interested in some particular aspect of the material, such as matters of resolving the problems of this type as posed by Jung? i noticed that mature forum members were exploring aspects of the material, but you seemed to be hoping for a specific discussion. if not general discussion might be interesting for others also.
 
IEI (INFp) in Socionics is INFJ in MBTI

I have always tested INFJ both in MBTI tests and the Socionics test (EII). I have never tested anything else. I'm a little confused by this idea that INFJ for MBTI is INFP in Socionics. I understand that this is made through the idea of the functions Fi Ne and Ni Fe, but when I read the descriptions of INFJ I have no doubt whatsoever that I am INFJ and when I read the descriptions in Socionics, the EII personality description fits me much better than IEI.
 
I was trying to understand the text you posted and I can say that this section seems to represent me better than the rest:

If not an artist, he is frequently an unappreciated genius, a great man ‘gone wrong’, a sort of wise simpleton, a figure for ‘psychological’ novels.

Although it is not altogether in the line of the introverted intuitive type to make of perception a moral problem, since a certain reinforcement of the rational functions is required for this, yet even a relatively slight differentiation of judgment would suffice to transfer intuitive perception from the purely æsthetic into the moral sphere. A variety of this type is thus produced which differs essentially from its æsthetic form, although none the less characteristic of the introverted intuitive. The moral problem comes into being when the intuitive tries to relate himself to his vision, when he is no longer satisfied with mere perception and its æsthetic shaping and estimation, but confronts the question: What does this mean for me and for the world? What emerges from this vision in the way of a duty or task, either for me or for the world?

I am an artist really, but I don't 'allow' myself what seems like an indulgence when I can use my talents for a more concrete and purposeful quest to make the world a better place in whatever small way I can.
I don't know if this is exactly what he meant but that is how I interpret it and it resonates with me that way.

Oh, and the first part I see as the fact that people have always underestimated me and judged me to be something that I am definitely not. There are a lot of people that are very surprised at the things I have been accomplishing in the last few years. I don't think they ever thought me capable of any of them, but I always knew I was.
 
LucyJr, sorry if this seems like an obvious question, and i hope you dont mind me asking, but are you interested in some particular aspect of the material, such as matters of resolving the problems of this type as posed by Jung? i noticed that mature forum members were exploring aspects of the material, but you seemed to be hoping for a specific discussion. if not general discussion might be interesting for others also.
Yes, good question. I was hoping that somebody could give some advice on how to be a better INFJ, or how not to fall into the trap that Carl Jung was talking, which is using to much Ni, and living outside of reality. I don't know if this is making any sense :D
 
I have always tested INFJ both in MBTI tests and the Socionics test (EII). I have never tested anything else. I'm a little confused by this idea that INFJ for MBTI is INFP in Socionics. I understand that this is made through the idea of the functions Fi Ne and Ni Fe, but when I read the descriptions of INFJ I have no doubt whatsoever that I am INFJ and when I read the descriptions in Socionics, the EII personality description fits me much better than IEI.
This is very interesting, because I heard some people saying the same thing basically.
Some say MBTI got the function order wrong, other say Socionics got it wrong.