It's the father's choice!

[slant]

note: for the purpose of this thread we are assuming all abortions being conducted are NOT the result of a rape or sexual assault.

I find the pro-choice argument quite contradictory.

A woman is able to decide if she wants to keep/abort the child, but a father has no say, even though if the child is retained he will be forced to pay child support.

You may have many views about this, lots of opinion.

The most common one is that's is a woman's body and therefore she has a right over it, no one else. She would have to carry a child for 40 weeks, and would have to go through the pains of childbirth.

The father will have to be paying money out of his pocket for 18 years after birth.

Which is a bigger price?

The attitude towards fathers who would like a different choice other than the mothers, such as to abort when she wants to keep the child, are treated with such bitterness. Simply, don't have sex if you did not want that responsibility.

But unlike women, men do not have an 'opt out' option. They are completely surrendered to the rights of the women, while, apparently, no one has the rights to a women's body but herself.

There are two things that I can think of which would solve this pressing problem.

1. Give the father of the child equal rights over whether the child is kept or aborted. If he wants it, he has a say. If he doesn't, he also has a say. The choice is not ultimately the women's but it is equal. How to settle disputes, I haven't determined that.

2. The father may opt out of paying child support pre-birth if he does not want the child. It must be before the child is actually born though, just like women must make the decision to abort before the child is actually born.


I would like your opinions and point of view. What are some alternative options to this, what do you think, do you have any plans to make the say more 'equal'?

 

[Wyote]

Yea, I've been advocating option 2 there myself.

 

[Gaze]

I agree that the rights of fathers aren't recognized enough but i disagree that simply because he doesn't want the child, that he shouldn't pay child support. As long as the child is born, it's his, and only someone of questionable character wouldn't want to support their own flesh and blood once it's born. Whether or not he supports the mother's choice to keep the child, it is still his child. It is a life he has a part in creating, so he is still responsible. That's "my" opinion.

 

[slant]

I agree that the rights of fathers aren't recognized enough but i disagree that simply because he doesn't want the child, that he shouldn't pay child support. As long as the child is born, it's his, and only someone of questionable character wouldn't want to support their own flesh and blood once it's born. Whether or not he supports the mother's choice to keep the child, it is still his child. It is a life he has a part in creating, so he is still responsible. That's "my" opinion.

In most cases the second is an 'extreme' version of the demonstrating fact that men should be given more rights to the choice. What would you suggest in your own view of things would adequately give fathers more rights? Or, rather, what rights to you think should be recognized for fathers?

 

[The Jester]

True restraint, but I think that the father must also have some input in the choice if it gets aborted or not.
I'm talking about the situation where the father wants to keep the child but the mother doesn't.
Not the other way around.
I just think that if one of the parents wants to raise it, it shouldn't be killed.

Of course, the woman has to carry it for 9 months.. and give birth.
So there is no possible right or wrong.

 

[Entyqua]

I am pro choice, always have been, but I have a problem with all this, If the man refuses child support and the woman cannot get an abortion for her own reasons...why is it fair for the father to be abdicated from supporting the child? If the consensual sex resulted in offspring I do not think the woman due to a moral objection, or a connection with the unborn child, should be left to support the child alone.

In extreme situations, if a male demanded an abortion against the woman's choice, or he wont support the child its an ultimatum...should he have no responsibility in the making of a child then? The child was made, you cannot change that, but puttting that kind of ultimatum on a vulnerable emotionally charged new mother is outrageous...

this is just one woman's opinion. I think the man should have more rights in this situation, but I think giving into option two is only geared toward the male side of the story.

 

[slant]

I am pro choice, always have been, but I have a problem with all this, If the man refuses child support and the woman cannot get an abortion for her own reasons...why is it fair for the father to be abdicated from supporting the child? If the consensual sex resulted in offspring I do not think the woman due to a moral objection, or a connection with the unborn child, should be left to support the child alone.

In extreme situations, if a male demanded an abortion against the woman's choice, or he wont support the child its an ultimatum...should he have no responsibility in the making of a child then? The child was made, you cannot change that, but puttting that kind of ultimatum on a vulnerable emotionally charged new mother is outrageous...

this is just one woman's opinion. I think the man should have more rights in this situation, but I think giving into option two is only geared toward the male side of the story.

That is the point- the man should have more responsibility in the situation and it was his responsibility pre-birth to determine if he wanted the child or not. Since it's apparent that women have a right over their own body, it puts an unfair strain on men who protest the birth of the child- a strain on their wallet. If a woman can decide that they are not ready for a kid and it would be easier to abort it, a man can decide he isn't financially ready for a child and choose to financially abort it since a man is not given a right over a woman's body or even an equal choice in determining the outcome of the child.

 

[Reon]

2. The father may opt out of paying child support pre-birth if he does not want the child. It must be before the child is actually born though, just like women must make the decision to abort before the child is actually born.


I would like your opinions and point of view. What are some alternative options to this, what do you think, do you have any plans to make the say more 'equal'?

True restraint, but I think that the father must also have some input in the choice if it gets aborted or not.
I'm talking about the situation where the father wants to keep the child but the mother doesn't.
Not the other way around.
I just think that if one of the parents wants to raise it, it shouldn't be killed.

Of course, the woman has to carry it for 9 months.. and give birth.
So there is no possible right or wrong.

My question is that basically

 

[Zero Angel]

If the mother wants to keep the child it is her choice, and also the responsibility of the father to help raise it. As far as I am concerned, if the father is advocating for aborting that child, he is doing so in order to avoid the responsibility of raising it.

In that case, he shouldnt've had sex in the first place. Or at least used better protection.

However, if the mother wants to abort the child, then it is completely her choice. The reason I state this is because the mother will have to bear the child for 9 months, and there's the factor that natural consequence involved for aborting. If the male wants the child and the female doesnt, then the male can simply find a mate who WILL bear a child.

This solution gives all parties the maximum amount of choice available, and as far as I am concerned, provides the most happiness for all parties (when losses are taken into account).

 

[slant]

A male, from a logical standpoint, is responsible for fifty percent of the child- so perhaps the mother should be allowed to abort 50% and the father keep the other half?

I'm seeing quite a strong movement towards the 'it's the female's body' argument, with note that a father should have more rights but no one is willing to specify what rights.

And as far as the man shirking out of the responsibility by asking for an abortion, don't you think the woman is shirking out of the responsibility by having an abortion when the father wants the child? Doesn't the same argument play out: she knew the consequences of having sex and that a child could develop from it. That's a double standard view if she is allowed to have an abortion regardless of the male's wishes, but when she decides to have a child regardless of the male's wishes of not having one, he is forced to pay child support.

 

[The Jester]

A male, from a logical standpoint, is responsible for fifty percent of the child- so perhaps the mother should be allowed to abort 50% and the father keep the other half?

I'm seeing quite a strong movement towards the 'it's the female's body' argument, with note that a father should have more rights but no one is willing to specify what rights.

And as far as the man shirking out of the responsibility by asking for an abortion, don't you think the woman is shirking out of the responsibility by having an abortion when the father wants the child? Doesn't the same argument play out: she knew the consequences of having sex and that a child could develop from it. That's a double standard view.

QFT

I have no further input in this thread.

 

[Satya]

2. The father may opt out of paying child support pre-birth if he does not want the child. It must be before the child is actually born though, just like women must make the decision to abort before the child is actually born.

I think this option would be fair, as long as the state absolves all parental rights the father has in regards to the child, and he gives up any right he may have to see or be involved in the child's life.

 

[Zero Angel]

And the double-standards argument is an extremely valid point. In addition, I also just realized that even when an unfit (to care for the child) mother has an abortion, she can experience years of long-term regret and angst at having done so.

Both of these cause me to change my opinion altogehter.

In this case, I think that if at least one parent wants the child, then the child should be kept in the care of that parent, but still with the other parent helping to support that child. Especially given the fact that most likely both parents consented to the sex which brought about the child in the first place -- so even the one who does not want the child should share responsibility.

 

[Entyqua]

A male, from a logical standpoint, is responsible for fifty percent of the child- so perhaps the mother should be allowed to abort 50% and the father keep the other half?

I'm seeing quite a strong movement towards the 'it's the female's body' argument, with note that a father should have more rights but no one is willing to specify what rights.

And as far as the man shirking out of the responsibility by asking for an abortion, don't you think the woman is shirking out of the responsibility by having an abortion when the father wants the child? Doesn't the same argument play out: she knew the consequences of having sex and that a child could develop from it. That's a double standard view if she is allowed to have an abortion regardless of the male's wishes, but when she decides to have a child regardless of the male's wishes of not having one, he is forced to pay child support.

You would want to be forced to carry a child to term even if you didn't want the child? Pregnancy, and childbirth are NOT pretty, pleasant, or nice.

no one here disagrees that there is a double standard. there is. but the reason there is, is this. When a woman has a baby she is out of commission for months...No one will hire a pregnant woman, (i should know I tried to get a job while pregnant) You are out for the last two or three weeks because you can hardly walk youre so huge, then your out for at least four weeks to heal. so for a month and a half the woman cannot work, how is she supposed to support that child on her own?

I agree there is a double standard.

Lets throw this one out there

Since were going for equal...Shouldnt the man get 50% of labor pains?
OO 50% of delivering the baby,

Or 50% of the abortion.

50% of the sex

The problem here is it is a one sided issue. The woman does all the work in child birth. or abortion.

 

[The Jester]

50% of the sex

What?

 

[slant]

You would want to be forced to carry a child to term even if you didn't want the child? Pregnancy, and childbirth are NOT pretty, pleasant, or nice.

no one here disagrees that there is a double standard. there is. but the reason there is, is this. When a woman has a baby she is out of commission for months...No one will hire a pregnant woman, (i should know I tried to get a job while pregnant) You are out for the last two or three weeks because you can hardly walk youre so huge, then your out for at least four weeks to heal. so for a month and a half the woman cannot work, how is she supposed to support that child on her own?

I agree there is a double standard.

Lets throw this one out there

Since were going for equal...Shouldnt the man get 50% of labor pains?
OO 50% of delivering the baby,

Or 50% of the abortion.

50% of the sex

The problem here is it is a one sided issue. The woman does all the work in child birth. or abortion.

You are trying to compare roles when the role of a man and a woman in a societal responsibility are different. If it is thought to be irresponsible of man who doesn't want to pay child support for a baby who's birth he didn't want, it is irresponsible for a woman to abort a child who's father wanted the baby.

A man must pay monthly child support for each child he fathers, even if he did not want it.

Tell me, is it fair for a man to be forced to pay $129,600 from his pocket, which is very close to the average price of a house, for a baby he didn't want? Is it fair for a woman to decide that childbirth is too painful and risky (when she knew very well ahead of time that a child COULD result from having sex, but she did it anyway, knowing that women could even die in childbirth and knowing the pain that often comes from it) and abort it despite the father's wishes?

American Society has a real bias towards males and family raising. See, a female is often put in the position of a single parent family, where she raises a child alone. This almost never happens to males, and we say it's because males don't want anything to do with the child, but consider this:

since women are able to abort children if they do not want them without the consent of their husband or boyfriend, if a man married a woman he would not be able to have a child if she did not want one. Suppose a man wanted to raise a child alone. This is rarely possible because women will keep their children who they birth and abort the ones they don't want.

If he married to get a child so that he would be able to divorce and raise one, this wouldn't be possible. The children would likely go to the mother. The mother has more rights over the children in most cases then the fathers do- and while a lot of fathers don't want involvement in their childrens' life, what about the ones who do, who are denied this privilege?

As for the whole issue of the child labor thing being unfair, the reproduction system is designed differently for males and females. That does not however, merit women having more rights over the role seeing as each gender has an equal role in the production of a child, they are just selectively different.

 

[Zero Angel]

Enty, of COURSE the woman will have to bear it, but in the grand scheme of things 6 months of unpleasantness is nothing compared to the knowledge that you have voided a life that somebody wanted (your mate) -- and the possibility that you might have to endure years of regret at having done so.

And the thing is when the physical pain of labor is over, it's over. The psychological trauma of having aborted would be far more lingering, I would imagine (and I also imagine that it would depend on who you are as a person). I say this because someone I know aborted a child and they also have deep and lasting regret at having done so.

 

[NeverAmI]

In my opinion it is pretty easy to ditch out of child support anyway. If a guy REALLY wants to get out of paying child support, it won't be too hard if he is ok with getting paid under the table and potentially moving to another state.

I think abortion would have to be fully accepted by society before it could be a plausible option in legal terms. Some women simply would never think of getting an abortion and this law would be unfair in their eyes.

I disagree with an "opt out" option for men. But then again I am also not a huge advocate of abortion. It is unfortunate because many times the person desiring abortion is an unfit parent and they know it.

I like your idea, and I definitely hadn't thought about it from your perspective.

 

[TheLastMohican]

I'll say that I probably agree with you, slant, but there is a practical bone to pick: exactly how long should the father have to make his decision? Timing makes a huge difference as to the difficulty of the abortion, both in terms of cost and pain caused to the mother. You seem to assume that the abortion itself is no inconvenience, and therefore the father can abruptly leave the mother with a choice between abortion and financial ruin anytime he chooses, provided the baby has not yet been born.

 

[slant]

I'll say that I probably agree with you, slant, but there is a practical bone to pick: exactly how long should the father have to make his decision? Timing makes a huge difference as to the difficulty of the abortion, both in terms of cost and pain caused to the mother. You seem to assume that the abortion itself is no inconvenience, and therefore the father can abruptly leave the mother with a choice between abortion and financial ruin anytime he chooses, provided the baby has not yet been born.

I believe the financial opt out and age where abortion can be performed should coexist. If an abortion can no longer be performed, the financial option is also off. That will probably warrant people paying a lot closer attention to their sexual partners to make sure they are not impregnated, seeing as, you say, there is a time limit to that sort of thing.

There is a pre-set abortion 'window' so to speak, correct?