It's supposedly Constitutional, BUT | Page 5 | INFJ Forum

Featured It's supposedly Constitutional, BUT

Discussion in 'News and Politics' started by just me, Feb 12, 2021.

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  1. Reason

    Reason Damnation Dignified

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    Because banning someone from being in office is inappropriate for genuine crimes. If a president murdered someone (for sake of argument) while in office what would be the point of impeaching him after office? If he were guilty he would just go to prison, and that pretty much solves that rather completely dont you think? Is he going to run from his prison cell?
     
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  2. Hostarius

    Hostarius Dad Bodinem

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    I don't understand this argument.

    What's being impeached are Trump's actions while in office.

    And I hate to deploy an argument from authority, but constitutional scholars agree.

    By the way, is it relevant that Trump still hasn't conceded? Is it relevant that he refused to accept the outcome of a free and fair election? The only person 'skirting democracy' is Trump, like a central African dictator.
     
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  3. Reason

    Reason Damnation Dignified

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    Of course regular courts have burdens of proof and oaths of impartiality... That's the real barrier isn't it? Kangaroo court is needed.
     
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  4. Reason

    Reason Damnation Dignified

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    I look forward to watching Republicans use this on democrats. We'll see if you feel the same way then.
    Like the Democrats from 2016-2020 when they were claiming fraud?
     
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  5. SpecialEdition

    SpecialEdition Well-known member

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    He was banned off of Twitter on January 9th. The attack happened on the 6th. If he wanted peace he had any opportunity throughout the day to call off his supporters. He initially tried to blame it on Antifa, was told it was his supporters and asserted that they were more upset about the election than McCarthy, who was asking him to call them off. He knew these were his supporters and didn't stop it. He did not speak to anyone to call in the National Guard, which has been established. He knew Pence had been removed for his safety because of the attacks from Tubberville. Then tweeted Pence didn't have courage - AFTER he knew Pence was in danger already. To me, that says he signaled that Pence was now to blame for the election not being turned over.

    It wasn't until this was going on for hours that he told them to go home. I'm sure if you watched all of the impeachment proceedings none of this is new for you so I'm not sure I have to explain further.

    Why should I care if it's used against the Democrats? I don't care what "side" anyone is on. If a massive conspiracy is being peddled by the President of the United States, even after 60+ court cases were lost, even after the states confirmed the results, even after it is proven without a doubt that he/she lost the election and they called down their base for a massive rally and told them to go to the Capital, it wouldn't be acceptable. If they Impeach and establish a precedent for unacceptable behaviour, then yes, it'll be used against anyone that tries to do the same thing.

    Trump ran out of non-violent ways to overturn the results. That should have been the end of it.

    I'm not sure if you're arguing this for fun or if you actually believe in what you're saying, but the reason for the impeachment is to protect the republic in the future from any President that tries to over turn an election they lost by inciting an insurrection. To me that's obvious. Criminal charges are separate.
     
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  6. Hostarius

    Hostarius Dad Bodinem

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    Why would you look forwards to it?
     
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  7. Hostarius

    Hostarius Dad Bodinem

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    For what it's worth, I've been enjoying seeing Anthony Scaramucci being an absolute bitch about Trump, lol.
     
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  8. Reason

    Reason Damnation Dignified

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    The only part i look forward to is watching the arguments turn on a dime. I should've worded that post more clearly but I think this is a terrible precedent to set.
     
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  9. Reason

    Reason Damnation Dignified

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    But he did, that's what I said he did do that both during his speech on the 6th and after
     
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  10. Reason

    Reason Damnation Dignified

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    I'll try to remember that for the future ;)
     
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  11. SpecialEdition

    SpecialEdition Well-known member

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    I don't live in your country so it doesn't matter to me. I don't understand or relate to picking a side or a team or having fears that one party might do this, that or other thing. I don't really understand or relate to this idea of retribution. It doesn't make any logical sense to me to think that way or worry about something like that. But I do not live in a country with a two party system so aligning to a party in this way just doesn't work anyway.
     
  12. Hostarius

    Hostarius Dad Bodinem

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    My opinion, Reason, is that Trump is a dangerous demagogue who has the Republican party by the throat. I mean, the country almost tore itself apart because the dude couldn't accept an election result.

    They couldn't convict him even if they wanted to because they'd probably lose their primaries to Trumpist candidates, and then it really would become the party of Trump.

    I feel sorry for the anti-Trump Republicans who are now basically stuck in a catch-22; of losing their party to this unprincipled opportunist with nothing they can do about it.
     
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  13. Reason

    Reason Damnation Dignified

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    His popularity is a reoccurring problem isn't it? What kind of a country will we have if we keep allowing people to take power just because they're popular? :tearsofjoy:

    Absolute comedy :D
     
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  14. SpecialEdition

    SpecialEdition Well-known member

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    I know that once his followers breached the Capitol he tweeted "Please support our Capitol Police and Law Enforcement. They are truly on the side of our Country. Stay peaceful!” I also know that around 40 minutes later he tweeted “I am asking for everyone at the U.S. Capitol to remain peaceful. No violence! Remember, WE are the Party of Law & Order – respect the Law and our great men and women in Blue. Thank you!” Why wouldn't he call them off and ask them to go home? Why wouldn't he condemn the violence after it was happening? Why did this attack go on for HOURS before he asked them to stop?

    Finally, he asked his followers to go home, said he loved them and they were very special. Why would he say he loved insurrectionists and that they were special? He followed up later by tweeting about how this is what happens when an election victory is stripped away, essentially justifying the violence and that it was the fault of Mike Pence (who they wanted to hang) and "weak Republicans" and of course the Democrats for "stealing" the election - for which there is still zero evidence.

    Why is it that he wouldn't call the National Guard? Why is it that he knew that the insurrectionists were his followers but didn't tell them to stop sooner? When people were dying? When his own VP was in danger? When Giuliani called for trial by combat that the rally, why didn't he correct that? Letting it slide and then praising Giuliani could potentially imply support for this kind of suggestion.

    We have to ask those questions. We can't just say that he posted 2 tweets about "peace" and forget everything else. We have to look at all of the tweets, the speeches and the behaviours leading up to January 6th and in the aftermath.

    Do you feel that Trump did enough to stop these attacks? Do you feel he was justified in adopting the Stop the Steal slogan when it was proven over and over that he lost? Why would he not want a peaceful transition of power when he knew he was a loser? What was the motivation here? Why not concede after he exercised all legal options to overturn the results?
     
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  15. Reason

    Reason Damnation Dignified

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    Because gathering peacefully as he asked isn't illegal?
    But he did that's what we're talking about, he did condemn it after it happened.
    Do you think he was talking to the people who broke laws or just to all demonstrators? The latter isn't it?

    And supposing it was just the lawbreakers would they be more or less likely to be persuaded if he was insulting as opposed to trying to charm?
    He didn't call out the national guard during the blm riots either. He offered them to the governors and they told him to get stuffed.
    He has commited to a peaceful transfer of power 5 or 6 times over the past couple months. He's entitled to his opinion the same way that people who questioned the 2016 election's legitimacy are. It's unethical to force someone to say something they don't believe. That is for example the logic by which athletes are allowed to kneel during the national anthem during sporting events.
     
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  16. Hostarius

    Hostarius Dad Bodinem

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    If I asked you to justify Trump as a good president, would you be able to do it?

    You seem to be relying upon pointing out what seem to you logical contradictions, rather than actually defending him or his record.

    Trump is obviously unfit to serve, and the Republicans don't need him, and yet his lies have penetrated the base. You'd be hard-pressed to find a better definition of a demagogue.
     
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  17. SpecialEdition

    SpecialEdition Well-known member

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    There were peaceful people there, of course. There were also many people who were not and now people are dead. His supporters who were caught have all said they were doing what their President asked them to do. They believe he invited them there. They believe they were told to fight like hell. They were looking for Pence to hang him. Some admitted they wanted to shoot Pelosi in the head but couldn't find her. Are his supporters stupid and completely misinterpreted everything that he was telling him over the last year about a fraudulent election or were they actually correctly interpreting Trump and it's true that he summoned them there to storm the Capitol to "stop the steal?" What do you think of his supporters? Were they stupid? Brainwashed? Did they organize this independently and Trump's words over the last year had nothing to do with it?

    Why wouldn't he have done it much sooner? Why did he wait to do it, and when he finally did, still had to plug the lie about the election being stolen despite there being zero evidence? Why did he not immediately act? He says he would run into a school during an active shooting but he couldn't send out a tweet or a video immediately to condemn the violence, especially when his own VP was in danger? We already know he thinks he can shoot someone in the middle of the street and get away with it, so maybe this is more of that. Maybe he just didn't think it was that big of a deal. Maybe he was actually enjoying it? Not for me to say, but I do wonder these things.

    I believe he was talking to all of his supporters which included the violent protestors.

    Had he called in the National Guard to deal with it immediately then this wouldn't have even been a question at all. Why would he need to charm terrorists? Why would he have to tell them he loved them and were special when he could have called in the National Guard and had them removed? What's the value in charming violent protestors who are trying to actively destroy the democratic process?

    Not sure what BLM has to do with trying to violently overturn election results and potentially destabilizing and destroying democracy in the USA? Or is this a whataboutism argument?

    Are you arguing for the First Amendment? Do you think it was the same in 2016 even though Hilary Clinton conceded and there were no violent attempts to interrupt the government from doing their duty so that there could be a peaceful transfer of power?
     
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  18. Reason

    Reason Damnation Dignified

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    Justify to who? To you? If you mean convince someone that would depend in part on who that someone is doesn't it?

    Also i thought it was citing an insurrection he was being impeached for not his personality, is impeachment actually about his personality Host?
    I thought we were discussing the constitutionality of impeachment not Trump's record, did I misread the prompt?
     
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  19. noisebloom

    noisebloom theory conspirer
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    It is possible to have an argument and not be an ass, you know.
     
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  20. Hostarius

    Hostarius Dad Bodinem

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    No, you didn't misread the prompt, but I'm asking for your opinion.

    Again, you're welcome not to answer, but I do think it's relevant to the question of his fitness to the office.
     
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