Is utopia or perfection an impossible to reach ideal? | INFJ Forum

Is utopia or perfection an impossible to reach ideal?

Discussion in 'Philosophy and Religion' started by Darc, Jul 29, 2017.

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  1. Darc

    Darc Well-known member

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    Well I was just wondering, if conditions are too perfect, are those really sustainable to the conditions that are supportive of life?

    Does such a thing as utopia or perfection even exist?

    I was wondering as well, what if things could become too perfect and then thus, they become sterile and unchanging as a result. Would this not be a form of imperfection then instead?

    So then I wonder if this innate desire or longing for perfection is some strange human desire that can never truly be satisfied or met in the real world...?
     
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  2. Pin

    Pin Commander-in Chief / Ren's Counterpart

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    The world could potentially be much better. There's very poor places in the world with brilliant economic possibilities. Give me enough power and money... I'll be done in 8 years.
     
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  3. OP
    Darc

    Darc Well-known member

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    I feel less angry at mankind after listening to this song...

     
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  4. the

    the Si master race.
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    All ideals are impossible to reach, unless you are settling for "most suitable":
    1. satisfying one's conception of what is perfect; most suitable.
    2. existing only in the imagination; desirable or perfect but not likely to become a reality.
    Ideals are something to strive for but you will always come up shorter than perfect.
     
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  5. just me

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    Splitting an arrow is perfection, then you aim a bit to one side to save the arrows. Inspecting lenses, one sees perfection every now and then. One can score perfect on a test.

    I think perfection requires repetition.

    Guy joins a monastery. They told him he could only speak two words after a year. A year went by and it was his turn to speak. "Bed hard."
    After two years, he was asked to speak. "Food bad."
    After three years, he said, "I quit."

    Guy in front of him said, "Well, you had just as soon quit: all you have done is complain since you've been here."

    We have so much we don't even know what we have. We must know our limitations. We must learn how we can be more perfect.
     
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  6. charlatan

    charlatan Community Member

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    I'm not sure about perfection, because it seems to me progress can be seen as endless.

    Avoiding the unacceptable does seem to be possible, however.

    I think a lot of problems with right/wrong questions stem from a conflation of right/wrong with questions of value. Value does have a choice component. It is coherent to value something for personal reasons: ones which are psychologically dependent.
    Right/wrong by the very phrasing is more about what holds for all agents.

    Value might be endless and even somewhat subjective, so to speak of a static perfection might not work. On the other hand, speaking of avoiding wrong-doing seems more definite, and that I think will be part of an acceptable world.

    If you're like me and are not all that sympathetic to "agreeing to disagree," you believe that rational discussion leads to concord. I don't really find disputes 99% that devolve into angry shout-fests particularly reasonable.
    Basically, I think at most there are practical difficulties, not any principle difficulty.
     
    #6 charlatan, Jul 30, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2017
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  7. ruji

    ruji Well-known weirdo

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    Utopia doesn't exist because more than one person exists, and even if everything was fair, everyone would live at a compromise of each other. And that's the best case. What actually would happen is that some people will want more than others. Utopia doesn't exist because people exist.
     
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  8. just me

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    I think the mind expounds on what is right or wrong. For example, that might seem to be alright, but saying it is alright means all this and that is alright, also.

    I know people who are soo self-righteous, they can make their past mistakes everyone else's
    and try to justify their actions.

    People don't want to be wrong. I've watched people try to destroy the scriptures becaUSE THE SCRIPTURES DO NOT VALIDATE THE WAY THEY ARE LIVING. Sorry: hit the caps lock accidentally. They try to destroy everything that tells them they are wrong.
     
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  9. MrWonka

    MrWonka Regular Poster

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    That depends heavily on what you would consider a utopia. Obviously a world where none suffer would be impossible, but there are plenty of places on earth where most people live fairly good lives with little crime, low unemployment, and almost no poverty.

    Bringing an end to racism, misogyny, xenophobia, homophobia, religious zealotry, and the ridiculous hatred too many people have for the poor would likely get us pretty close.
     
  10. wolly.green

    wolly.green Community Member

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    There is no such thing as Utopia.

    I'm a fallibilist. Which means that the solution to one problem always leads to new, and more fundamental problems. As David Deutsch -- an astrophysicist -- put it, progress is not so much a matter of “moving from problems to solutions” as much as it is “moving from problems to better problems.” The cure for cancer may succeed at reducing suffering, but it also creates new challenges. What happens if our population skyrockets as a result? Will we run out of food and water? Will there be enough jobs? This is an issue that cannot be solved without the growth of knowledge. In this sense, problems are inevitable, they are never really completely solved. The answer to one problem will inevitably pose further challenges that will need to be solved. Civilization has no guaranteed future. It is undeniable that the worse has already happened, and many times over. If ancient Athens had known a thing or two about good hygiene, they could have prevented the plague that eventually destroyed them. The future holds an infinity of problems, most we cannot even conceive of.

    So no, Utopia is impossible!
     
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  11. Love_Conquers_All

    Love_Conquers_All Community Member

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    Heaven on earth is becoming a reality as the Huios Sons of God are made manifest. As the overflow of the River of Life pours forth from their bellies Satans kingdom or Babylon is crashing to the ground. The Sapphire Sea is drowning all of the inhabitants of this world in Perfect Love directly from our Father in Heaven. Nothing can stop what He is doing. Jesus will return to rule and reign once His bride is made perfect and whole with no spot, wrinkle, or blemish. Great Grace, peace, and joy to all those who read these words in the Love of Christ.
     
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  12. Enkidu

    Enkidu Community Member

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    Thomas More's Utopia was metaphorically meant to mean 'Heaven on Earth, a very Christian conception of human destiny. Utopian ideals follow a rigid trajectory of 'Man' born to original sin, must seek redemption through living a life of perfect love (Romans). Heaven is 'his' perfect reward. This is oversimplified, but my point is that this same linear progression of seeking perfection is also apparent in later European philosophy where (now sans God or deity or soul), the teleology of human seeking is the rationalization of the 'Cosmos,' and the self. I don't believe perfection (or Utopia) exists outside the confines of our minds other than an impetus to improve, a striving for and frustration at the undescribed part of our minds that we can never view from the inside out. And on a more tangible level, I think the ecological view of cycles of life and death (failure, learning, and improvement) are a more healthy, organic view of perfection, rather than the obsessive linearity of reaching your personal heaven

    I agree, these are my feelings, too. Understanding is a dreadfully slow process - but that's the point. Like the ideals of direct democracy or perspectivism, everyone has their own set of values and experiences that have inherent value, yet no idea is more perfect than another
     
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  13. Ren

    Ren Pin's android and co-founder of Stoic Café

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    As a complement to @wolly.green 's fallibilist argument, I will give you a simple and maybe glib logical argument for the impossibility of attaining Utopia:

    1. A Utopia is a perfect world.

    2. A perfect world is a world made of perfect states of affairs.

    3. States of affairs are not perfect by essence, but become perfect by being perfected through time.

    4. Therefore, for a perfect world to exist, it would have to be made of states of affairs that have all become perfect.

    5. But the world keeps presenting us with new states of affairs, which haven't attained perfection yet.

    6. Therefore the world is not made only of perfect states of affairs.

    7. Therefore the world is not perfect, and will never be.

    8. Therefore a Utopia is impossible.
     
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  14. Disguised

    Disguised Community Member

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    I think that the problem of creating a utopia lies in the idea of perfection itself. I think there is no such thing as a perfect system that would last forever and ever without any room for improvement with humans as a whole living in it. "The worst enemy of a perfectionist is good enough".

    Good enough for me means the basic needs of every human being on earth fulfilled. Everyone needs something to do, eat and drink and somewhere to live. This would be enough of a utopia for me. It just might let people be their actual selves when not needing to battle over these things.

    I don't believe there is a system that would please everyone in the end, no matter how harmonious, inspiring or safe. There are people now that have everything they need and yet sacrifice their everyday lives doing things that might get them killed just for the thrill of it. As there is no such thing as a perfect human being thus there could be no perfect society. Many are overly egoistic, greedy, ignorant, shy, judgemental, reckless... You name it.

    Who knows what evolution might turn a todays human into, but I think as we know it now it is simply wrong and impossible. People need to grow, a lot.
     
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  15. Eventhorizon

    Eventhorizon Permanently relocated
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    No pencil and paper? No fecies on the walls? I would have found somethig to write with. Just saying.
     
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  16. wolly.green

    wolly.green Community Member

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    This is a good proof. Although I would go one step further and claim that no state of affair can ever be perfect precisely because our knowledge of reality is always incomplete. Therefore we can never create perfect states of affairs.
     
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  17. Ren

    Ren Pin's android and co-founder of Stoic Café

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    @wolly.green Agreed!

    Come to think of it, maybe the proof would be especially useful if somebody were to come forward and argue that "perfect" and "tending towards perfection" can be considered synonymous, given humans' incomplete knowledge of reality. According to 5) in particular, the proof would still defeat such an attempt. It would still demonstrate the impossibility of attaining Utopia even if one were to propose a weak definition of perfection.

    Until a counter-argument is put forward, that is!
     
  18. SeekerSeeking

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    This may be off topic--but I wouldn't want a 'perfect world. When I ask myself why, it's because I think I like the quest for perfection, even with all its messy issues, and anxiety. Trying toward it--I've never met the perfect person, house, or job. And I had told myself they were perfect, I'd have been setting myself up for a huge expectation-buster. Actually, I probably love my partner more seeing his warts and imperfections... I get the feeling that perfection would be the competed end...and I like the journey toward it...
     
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  19. Ren

    Ren Pin's android and co-founder of Stoic Café

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    And in any case, since Utopia literally means "no place", it's kind of like its non-existence is inscribed in its DNA...

    I think Utopia's case is sealed!
     
  20. dogman6126

    dogman6126 Community Member

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    Heh. I want to take a side road as an answer. I think it's definitely a theoretical possibility. Is it an actual possibility? I don't know. I like to think that it is.
     
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