Is the Ku Klux Klan an American tradition?

[muir]

i dont care about the nature of your relationship with Lark and in any case i was not thinking of your interactions with that member.

Who then?

Why so vague?

i do not live in the US and have spent the entirety of my life living on another continent.

You're from Oz right?

and no, the stuff you posted in the thread does not interest me.

Why are you in this thread then other than to target me?

apart from the fact that it is entirely removed from my own personal career interests, the connections made within that material seem tenuous and even bizarre to me, and the style of referencing seems pseudoscholarly.

Well to join the dots you have to scratch beneath the surface. Its not possible to do in one post but over the course of a number of posts i promise you i can tie all these things together

the effect of your endless walls of text, which are so lengthy as to require multiple posts, does not seem informative or constructive.

Wrong they are loaded with information

If it's information that you are not interested in then don't read them

these walls of text are not conducive to good debate, because they contain far too many points for any one poster to respond to meaningfully. they seem to short-circuit meaningful debate by inundating other members with overwhelming quantities of theoretical material concerning conspiracies, clearly related to your own personal political beliefs, that is impossible to meaningfully negotiate at the level of a respectful but friendly and informal internet forum debate. these walls of text seem to completely derail debates that are happening, and i dont see why you cant just start other threads about these topics that interest you so much.

This is all pertinant information required when trying to establish how deep the roots of the KKK go into US society

Look it all depends on how much you really want to understand about these issues. if you want a shallow, vague and meaningless talk there are plenty of vacuous threads well suited to that

If you want to know what the KKK are about then read my posts because i have some stuff to share regarding that

i am absolutely not interested in asking Lark about what his own personal beliefs about socialism are and i think the nature of his own beliefs is ridiculously off topic in regards to this thread, hopelessly and blatantly irrelevant, and this is what i was referring to by your "targeting" of particular members. you are zeroing in on the beliefs of members in a way that is systematic and personal to those members.

NO YOU ARE CONSTANTLY TARGETTING ME IN A VERY PERSONAL WAY

Lark WANTS to discuss these matters that's why he brings them up

if you have no interest in discussing these matters then maybe you should stay away from these threads

i have quoted your posts repeatedly these times because i continually notice that the way you respond to debates on threads, by formulating theories of the personal beliefs of members, and harrassing them with personal questions about their beliefs and the cultural or ideological positioning of their identities, is not only terribly bad debating form, constituting ad hominem argument fallacy, but seems like personal bullying to me. it seems increasingly obvious to me that those members regard the connections you make with ideas they posted about as even completely irrelevant to their own beliefs as identified by themselves. i have trouble understanding why you seem to believe that interrogating individuals over the precise nature of their personal beliefs is making the world a better place, or how it is even just making the forum a better place. it seems purely disruptive.

Lark wants to discuss these matters....go look at how many threads he has started on them

Not everyone here is like you....stop trying to make everyone behave how you want them to behave

Some people here want to thrash out these subjects...so let them do it and stop being so controlling

 

[invisible]

yes! i should not interfere, it is none of my business. i will try not to disturb you in future.

 

[muir]

yes! i should not interfere, it is none of my business. i will try not to disturb you in future.

If you have things to say about these topics i'd be very happy to hear them

I want to learn and also share what i've learned...i think this is a fundamental human trait

We learn and we pass on what we learn

If you have info regarding the KKK then i'd be interested

But i know that all these groups are interconnected and if people are going to discuss these things i feel that is a vital piece of information to share

For example if a politicians wife was a major share holder of a big pharma company and that politician gave state contracts to that company even though their product was not the best product or the best value product do you think it would be in the public interest for the public to know about the marital link between that corporation shareholder and the employee of the state?

It's all about how things tie together....that's where the understanding is about how things work and why things are happening

You can't understand why the wheels of a car turn just by looking at the engine; you need to know about the drive shaft and the differential.....everythings connected

I know some of the stuff i talk about might seem a bit weird...but i have found that all these things actually have a big impact on our day to day lives in a number of ways....the truth is that reality IS weirder than we are told to believe

 

[Lark]

i dont care about the nature of your relationship with Lark and in any case i was not thinking of your interactions with that member.

i do not live in the US and have spent the entirety of my life living on another continent. and no, the stuff you posted in the thread does not interest me. apart from the fact that it is entirely removed from my own personal career interests, the connections made within that material seem tenuous and even bizarre to me, and the style of referencing seems pseudoscholarly.

the effect of your endless walls of text, which are so lengthy as to require multiple posts, does not seem informative or constructive. these walls of text are not conducive to good debate, because they contain far too many points for any one poster to respond to meaningfully. they seem to short-circuit meaningful debate by inundating other members with overwhelming quantities of theoretical material concerning conspiracies, clearly related to your own personal political beliefs, that is impossible to meaningfully negotiate at the level of a respectful but friendly and informal internet forum debate. these walls of text seem to completely derail debates that are happening, and i dont see why you cant just start other threads about these topics that interest you so much.

i am absolutely not interested in asking Lark about what his own personal beliefs about socialism are and i think the nature of his own beliefs is ridiculously off topic in regards to this thread, hopelessly and blatantly irrelevant, and this is what i was referring to by your "targeting" of particular members. you are zeroing in on the beliefs of members in a way that is systematic and personal to those members. i have quoted your posts repeatedly these times because i continually notice that the way you respond to debates on threads, by formulating theories of the personal beliefs of members, and harrassing them with personal questions about their beliefs and the cultural or ideological positioning of their identities, is not only terribly bad debating form, constituting ad hominem argument fallacy, but seems like personal bullying to me. it seems increasingly obvious to me that those members regard the connections you make with ideas they posted about as even completely irrelevant to their own beliefs as identified by themselves. i have trouble understanding why you seem to believe that interrogating individuals over the precise nature of their personal beliefs is making the world a better place, or how it is even just making the forum a better place. it seems purely disruptive.

Its just a strategy to try to relate to others, we all got to, I've considered it to be so for a long time and when people arent good at it, never learned how or have adopted bad strategies, you get this kind of thing.

You can tell pretty quickly whether pointing it out is going to be a pointless endevour, I've met about a dozen Muir types, not all online either and of all shades of opinion but they're all apt to be damn defensive when they get any kind of feedback they perceive as negative.

Seen it before, sure I'm gonna see it again. Good response, there's no real reason why you ought to serve as a proxy because I'm gonna engage him in any further conversation and it bugs him.

 

[Lark]

yes! i should not interfere, it is none of my business. i will try not to disturb you in future.

:laugh: I saw what you did there. Very good.

 

[muir]

Its just a strategy to try to relate to others, we all got to, I've considered it to be so for a long time and when people arent good at it, never learned how or have adopted bad strategies, you get this kind of thing.

You can tell pretty quickly whether pointing it out is going to be a pointless endevour, I've met about a dozen Muir types, not all online either and of all shades of opinion but they're all apt to be damn defensive when they get any kind of feedback they perceive as negative.

Seen it before, sure I'm gonna see it again. Good response, there's no real reason why you ought to serve as a proxy because I'm gonna engage him in any further conversation and it bugs him.

I'm just going to keep speaking the truth. What you do with it is upto you

 

[muir]

:laugh: I saw what you did there. Very good.

Anything to say about the KKK or too busy making personal attacks?

 

[slant]

http://www.thejournal.ie/klu-klux-klan-in-modern-america-1414691-Apr2014/?utm_source=facebook_short

Is the KKK an American tradition or a historical abberation from American traditions? How should a free society respond to members who hold views and opinions which appear anathema?

Oohhh yes, the KKK and white supremacy in general is an American tradition in staple. It is not only American- it is global, it is basically a WHITE tradition. The "KKK" has been published in our schools and media and spoken about to cloud what racism and white supremacy really is. We're made to think that the KKK is the only racist group possible in America and that the average joe white person cannot possibly be a white supremacist feeding into a white supremacist state that actively oppresses people of color. Hahahahaha, how wrong everyone is, how wrong white american are who believe in being "colorblind".

A free society??? A society that is run by instiutionalized racism and white supremacy cannot EVER be a free society, we are NOT living in a free society. Personally I think that until us white people can remove our privilege and stop oppressing, killing, terrorizing and imprisoning people of color, we will never have a free society.

Of course White supremacy is white culture; and it's the culture of like 99% of white people. There are so few white people who aren't racist that they aren't even worth counting.

 

[Lark]

Oohhh yes, the KKK and white supremacy in general is an American tradition in staple. It is not only American- it is global, it is basically a WHITE tradition. The "KKK" has been published in our schools and media and spoken about to cloud what racism and white supremacy really is. We're made to think that the KKK is the only racist group possible in America and that the average joe white person cannot possibly be a white supremacist feeding into a white supremacist state that actively oppresses people of color. Hahahahaha, how wrong everyone is, how wrong white american are who believe in being "colorblind".

A free society??? A society that is run by instiutionalized racism and white supremacy cannot EVER be a free society, we are NOT living in a free society. Personally I think that until us white people can remove our privilege and stop oppressing, killing, terrorizing and imprisoning people of color, we will never have a free society.

Of course White supremacy is white culture; and it's the culture of like 99% of white people. There are so few white people who aren't racist that they aren't even worth counting.

I dont think any good case is made better by exaggeration and that last bit definitely appears like exaggeration to me.

To be honest, and I think that it pays to be a lot more careful than this article appears to have been in reporting this, it seems extraordinary and dangerous that if someone objects to the spread of homosexuality, illegal immigration and interacial marriages then they're white supremacist, that seems like a bit of a leap to be honest.

In some ways I just thought those things could be politics or preferences rather than prejudices and even if they are prejudices they are a distance from supremacists thinking, even different to seperatist thinking too.

 

[muir]

Oohhh yes, the KKK and white supremacy in general is an American tradition in staple. It is not only American- it is global, it is basically a WHITE tradition. The "KKK" has been published in our schools and media and spoken about to cloud what racism and white supremacy really is. We're made to think that the KKK is the only racist group possible in America and that the average joe white person cannot possibly be a white supremacist feeding into a white supremacist state that actively oppresses people of color. Hahahahaha, how wrong everyone is, how wrong white american are who believe in being "colorblind".

A free society??? A society that is run by instiutionalized racism and white supremacy cannot EVER be a free society, we are NOT living in a free society. Personally I think that until us white people can remove our privilege and stop oppressing, killing, terrorizing and imprisoning people of color, we will never have a free society.

Of course White supremacy is white culture; and it's the culture of like 99% of white people. There are so few white people who aren't racist that they aren't even worth counting.

yeah its done on a global scale too

The west spends billions of dollars on killing brown people

 

[slant]

I dont think any good case is made better by exaggeration and that last bit definitely appears like exaggeration to me.

To be honest, and I think that it pays to be a lot more careful than this article appears to have been in reporting this, it seems extraordinary and dangerous that if someone objects to the spread of homosexuality, illegal immigration and interacial marriages then they're white supremacist, that seems like a bit of a leap to be honest.

In some ways I just thought those things could be politics or preferences rather than prejudices and even if they are prejudices they are a distance from supremacists thinking, even different to seperatist thinking too.

aww if only white supremacy was about people's preferences rather than:

literally murdering people of color
kicking people out of a country that does not even belong to white people in the first place and then quarantining the people who did live her first on 'reservations'
massively imprisoning people of color for committing the same crimes as white people did who only get probation- i don't know if you understand how seriously being put to jail is?? it destroys a person's life, makes it so they can't live certain places, can't work certain places, so right away, economic inequality. Not only that but there is a major problem with sexual and physical assault in prison, some of these people are being killed and rape, many times the prison security aiding in this, all because they had an ounce of weed on them! Fuck that shit.
OR WORSE is when someone is racially profiled and arrested for a crime they didn't even commit and is on death row for 12 years before being executed for again a crime they did not fucking commit
or maybe being dehumanized on a day to day level
having to remember not to wear a hoodie at night in a white neighborhood or someone might try to kill you for it
being underrepresented in the media and movies and books and when you are included you're the 'bad guy' or always in a relationship with the white person or a racial stereotype instead of a whole human being with feelings and thoughts and desires

i could go on and on all day

must be nice not to see the reality of your so called "opinions"

they are not harmless opinions when this ideology gets people killed every day

 

[Stu]

In 2009, the Department of Homeland Security issued a nine-page report detailing the threat of domestic terrorism by the white power movement. This short document outlined no specific threats, but rather a set of historical factors that had predicted white-supremacist activity in the past — like economic pressure, opposition to immigration and gun-control legislation — and a new factor, the election of a black president.

The report singled out one factor that has fueled every surge in Ku Klux Klan membership in American history, from the 1860s to the present: war. The return of veterans from combat appears to correlate more closely with Klan membership than any other historical factor. “Military veterans facing significant challenges reintegrating into their communities could lead to the potential emergence of terrorist groups or lone wolf extremists carrying out violent attacks,” the report warned. The agency was “concerned that right-wing extremists will attempt to recruit and radicalize returning veterans in order to boost their violent capabilities.”

By KATHLEEN BELEW APRIL 15, 2014 http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/16/opinion/veterans-and-white-supremacy.html?ref=contributors&_r=0

 

[Skarekrow]

I don’t think that 99% of white people are racist.
I actually agree with you there @Lark

But there is a line between being prejudice, racist, and intolerant.

I won’t bore anyone with definitions, because I think you all can figure that out for yourself.

Bottom line - Judging anyone on the color of their skin...their sexual preference...their religious preference...or for any other reason besides WHO that person is, is wrong...judging them at all is treading on thin ice.
No one really has any good justification to judge anyone else...we are all calling the kettle black in one way or another...I am just as guilty as the next guy...not by judging people on race, or sexual identity/preference or that sort...but by being too quick to judge people in general.
It’s extremely easy to jump to conclusions about people...it’s easy to forget that everyone has a back-story...people have reasons for “why”.
Why, they are unfriendly...or why they are pretentious...or why they are racist...or why they are ignorant...or why they are greedy....etc. etc.
I am not making excuses for anyone...there is no good reason as to why someone is intolerant of another based on presumptions.
It all boils down to treating others as you would like to be treated.
A lot of people were raised in environments that contributed to their viewpoints...take a look at all the white supremacists who teach their kids the Nazi Salute and instill their ideology into them since birth. Even the worst of parents have children who love them...and if those children are never taught to critically think for themselves then why question what you were taught?
My older brother is gay...he was two grades ahead of me in school. I remember in HS, people eventually found out that he was gay...you would never know otherwise, because he wasn’t the stereotypical version of gay that we are all fed. But nonetheless, people found out....and perhaps it is different now...but in the early 90’s it was far less "gay-friendly” of an environment. I remember him being spit on...physically assaulted...told he was going to Hell...that Jesus hated him...death threats even.
If you were to meet my brother and sat and got to know him...you would soon see that he is one of the kindest, gentlest, most compassionate people you are ever to meet.
It drives me nuts that people still think being gay is a “choice”...yes, of course...my brother would choose to be ostracized, assaulted, and threatened....what was I thinking?
It makes me even more crazy when people tell me that he is going to Hell because of who he is attracted to...nonsense.
Jesus helped the poor, the prostitutes, the down-trodden...he would never judge anyone based on such things...he loved them all.
And truly...it is NOT a choice folks...if you still believe that in this day and age then you may as well still believe the sun revolves around the earth.
Intolerance, racism, prejudice...all breed hate...all turn a blind eye to injustices committed against said people...eventually lead to violence and pain...which perpetuates more and more hate.
I’m sure being a part of the KKK is a tradition for some...but that doesn’t excuse it...female circumcision is a tradition too, but I’m sure we can all agree that that doesn’t make it right, nor should it be an excuse to continue the practice.
Traditions should only be held onto and passed on when something is found to be worthy of remembering and sharing with subsequent generations.
Hanging onto a “traition” of hate is flat out wrong.

 

[muir]

@muir You are a small scared man that goes out of his way to spread disinformation. You are part of the problem not the solution. I now look for a way to block my having to see your BS posts.

[MENTION=6281]CrazyBeautiful[/MENTION]

 

[muir]

Dude that is NOT cool at all. Making any correlation between the KKK and Masons is an irritation to say the VERY least.

Actually it takes a lot to annoy me. Congrats as going down in history as one of the few people that have managed to do this. Hold onto your precious ignorance.

@CrazyBeautiful

This was one of the early objections to my comments on the freemasons. There had been discussions before this, but as you can see here i am being accused of being 'ignorant' (name calling) and an 'irritation' for pointing out the historically verifiable link between the KKK and the freemasons (which i provided evidence for in this thread)

This lead to the comment in the previous post about blocking me

 

[Eventhorizon]

@CrazyBeautiful

This was one of the early objections to my comments on the freemasons. There had been discussions before this, but as you can see here i am being accused of being 'ignorant' (name calling) and an 'irritation' for pointing out the historically verifiable link between the KKK and the freemasons (which i provided evidence for in this thread)

This lead to the comment in the previous post about blocking me

Not name calling, I honestly believe you are ignorant and worse yet, knowingly so.

 

[cvp12gh5]

@CrazyBeautiful

This was one of the early objections to my comments on the freemasons. There had been discussions before this, but as you can see here i am being accused of being 'ignorant' (name calling) and an 'irritation' for pointing out the historically verifiable link between the KKK and the freemasons (which i provided evidence for in this thread)

This lead to the comment in the previous post about blocking me

The KKK hate Jews, African Americans, and basically everyone, right? Are you saying that Freemasons hold the same beliefs due to the connection you have found? Sorry if it's stated somewhere in the thread, I just didn't have time to read everything.

 

[muir]

Not name calling, I honestly believe you are ignorant and worse yet, knowingly so.

You throw a lot of names around yet you haven't disputed anything i say...why is that?

if you disagree with soemthing then dispute that point

prove my ignorance if you think i'm ignorant...good luck with that though...i think the best you will achieve is name calling from afar

 

[muir]

The KKK hate Jews, African Americans, and basically everyone, right? Are you saying that Freemasons hold the same beliefs due to the connection you have found? Sorry if it's stated somewhere in the thread, I just didn't have time to read everything.

Ask yourself what was going on in the south?

You had landowners running cotton fields where they were exploiting workers to the point of slavery

What did you have in Europe throughout the centuries? There was fuedalism where the landowners exploited the workers to the point of slavery ('serfdom')

The big landowners in europe were the vatican, the royal families (who all intermarried with each other) and the aristocracy (who also intermarried and supplied the royal stock)

These groups all worked together to maintain a social strata with the workers at the bottom tilling the fields as uneducated 'peasants'

As trade increased financial complexity increased. Christians and muslims were NOT allowed to charge interests on loans (this is called 'usury'). the only people who were not stopped by their religion from charging interest on loans were jews. This is not a racist comment against jews its simply historical fact

This is why each european royal family would have a jewish quarter in their city where they housed the jewish money changers. These money lenders lent loans to the royals of europe and to the aristocracy often in the shape of war loans to fight the many territorial disputes in european history.

Through this process of charging interest the jewish money changers became very wealthy and in the case of the rothschilds became knighted by the british royal family and accepted into the aristocracy...they all merged

The vatican too has a bank...all these groups have been controlling the land, the trade, the resources and the banking of europe for centuries

They did not turn a blind eye when the american colonies were started. They like everyone else saw the new lands as a business opportunity. They saw a vast land full of resources to be exploited whether it was land, oil, trees, furs, meat whatever and they took the land violently from the inhabitants

This network of royals, aristocracy, the vatican and the jewish bankers were all behind the slave trade. They had a triangular trade going with their cargo ships where they would sail european goods to africa to trade for slaves which they would take to the americas to be used to grow cash crops which would be taken back to Europe

Through this process the bankers and merchants grew massively wealthy and this is why countries like britain have so many grand stone buildings form this period....they are largely built off the blood and sweat of slavery

The jewish central bankers were HEAVILY involved in the slave trade at this time. The trade was protected by the crown

The network maintained their social cohesion through freemasonry which all the royals, bankers and aristocracy joined so that they could rub shoulders under one organisation and maintain their cohesion as a social and political force (you were either in the club or you weren't. If you weren't really in the club but you jopined the lodge then you weren't allowed into the prestigious lodges where the landed and monied people would meet)

The freemasons are a solar cult. They see the male penis as the microcosm of the macrocosmic sun. This is because they see man as a miniture of the universe (man was made in gods image etc). This is why women are not allowed into freemasonry...because they don't have a penis. This is why masons wear a cloth (an 'apron') over their penis because it is the holy of holies. freemasonry is a pyramidal hierarchical structure with the royals at the top of the pyramid. It aims to uphold the social structure of our society

In europe the social structure was the royals at the top then the aristocracy, then the priesthood, then the bankers and merchants, then the serfs (the wider public)

In the americas the social structure was the same. Old money exerted its influence in the americas through agents like J.P.Morgan and the Rockefellers

if you look at the catholic church, they too are a male only order who worship the sun which they veil behind the worship of jesus. They too are a solar, phallic cult and are asked to be celibate. This is why no women are allowed to be priests...because they don't have a penis

Regardless of any seeming hostility at the grass roots level between groups like the KKK and the catholic church at the top of each of those pyramids they converge...they are both on the same side. They want to maintain a social structure with the landowning class at the top exploiting the rest of humanity and stopping them from becoming educated and free

 

[Eventhorizon]

You throw a lot of names around yet you haven't disputed anything i say...why is that?

if you disagree with soemthing then dispute that point

prove my ignorance if you think i'm ignorant...good luck with that though...i think the best you will achieve is name calling from afar

Again incorrect, I have disputed the vast majority of what you have said. Yet again, you are confused.