Is it possible to have a healthy relationship with a person who has low self esteem/worth?

[slant]

I think there's a very real qualic difference in how we experience friendships, so I'm just going to offer my perspective rather than a definitive 'answer'.

I think it's helpful to understand my subjective experience of 'friendships' and what a 'friendship' is by using a different word here, perhaps something like 'comrade'. I don't judge the value or worth of a friendship by how we're getting along in that moment, by how much we have in common at the time, or by how much we currently enjoy each others' company.

To me, the relationship of 'friend', once established, is entirely divorced from those things - it's not something inherently experiential; instead the foundation is more like an understanding of loyalty. A friend is a friend for life, despite the fluctuations of time spent together, &c.

Perhaps this is an INTJ thing, perhaps it's a male thing, but if you are truly someone's 'friend', you shouldn't be worrying that you're drifting apart or that they've changed, or that they otherwise pose some 'risk' to you. So when I hear people speak like this, it's very unusual to hear and almost doesn't make sense to me. It's as if these friendships are being handled with the emotional intensity of a romantic attachment.

From my perspective, then, the way you're speaking sounds too much like 'discard'; a dishonour to the friendship and 'friendship' in general.

If it doesn't matter if you get along with/ like/ have common interests with a friend, what is the function of the friendship?

Hypothetically you have a friend who you don't get along with, who you don't share any common interests or opinions with, why do you feel compelled to spend your time with that person?

 

[Deleted member 16771]

If it doesn't matter if you get along with/ like/ have common interests with a friend, what is the function of the friendship?

Once established. You will have had things in common when the friendship was formed, but once established, you accept the changes. Their 'fun value' to you is entirely irrelevant.

Hypothetically you have a friend who you don't get along with, who you don't share any common interests or opinions with, why do you feel compelled to spend your time with that person?

Like I say, 'comrade' is perhaps a better word. You're just 'friends', and in fact you don't feel compelled to spend time with that person, but you do when you both fancy it. I'm an extremely low maintenance friend, and very stable.

Again, the bond is one of loyalty. Not in a super serious intense way, but an unspoken understanding that there's no 'risk' or 'drama' here, and you'll be there for each other if necessary. In the modern world, this is less about defending the village from marauding Magyars or whatever, and more about helping people move house, &c.

There's some interesting ideas about the origins of 'honour' and male friendships being about establishing a functional defensive unit for the tribe rather than providing each other with 'fun', and it's hard to communicate what that feels like or what it 'means' if you've never experienced it properly.

 

[slant]

Once established. You will have had things in common when the friendship was formed, but once established, you accept the changes. Their 'fun value' to you is entirely irrelevant.


Like I say, 'comrade' is perhaps a better word. You're just 'friends', and in fact you don't feel compelled to spend time with that person, but you do when you both fancy it. I'm an extremely low maintenance friend, and very stable.

Again, the bond is one of loyalty. Not in a super serious intense way, but an unspoken understanding that there's no 'risk' or 'drama' here, and you'll be there for each other if necessary. In the modern world, this is less about defending the village from marauding Magyars or whatever, and more about helping people move house, &c.

There's some interesting ideas about the origins of 'honour' and male friendships being about establishing a functional defensive unit for the tribe rather than providing each other with 'fun', and it's hard to communicate what that feels like or what it 'means' if you've never experienced it properly.

I understand what you're saying and I have friendships like that. However, they're rare. I've been friends with someone for 6 years and because we understand/respect each other enough even when she dropped off the face of the planet for 6 months when we talked again nothing had changed and I never held it against her. That's a best friend, a close friend.

Most of my friends I am not that close with. I do not feel obligated to them. Maybe by your definition they wouldn't be friends but moreso acquaintances. In order to reach that "close friend" level I have to feel a certain amount of emotional intimacy and trust with them. I do not feel that with all of my friends.

There are different levels of closeness.

 

[Roses In The Vineyard]

Yep, welcome to reality 1.0 , no happy cookies. One thing we should be very lucky on now is that we don't have to endure any direct war period as a western civilisation. And I really hope we won't for several decennia.
Just to give some perspective again:

Agreed, as for western civilization unfortunately it looks like the chickens are coming home to roost as the old saying saying goes meaning that we're in for a very difficult time ahead.

 

[Roses In The Vineyard]

I don't feel the need to justify my actions to you. If that's how you interpret it that's how you interpret it. I don't think we are obligated to give our love, time and attention to anyone that we don't want to give it to.


I didn't think you were implying that, and this guy I'm talking about is not a bad guy either. The situation is nuanced and complicated; both of us contributed to it.

See, in October of 2016 I was raped pretty violently. The following year in 2017 was the lowest point in my entire life. I was a psychological mess. This guy is 45 years old now so back then he would have been 42 and I would have been 24. He developed a crush on me, and I knew he had a crush on me but I didn't know what to do about it. I told him we were coworkers and could only be friends. When I eventually had a nervous breakdown because of the stress of having to tell people on a daily basis who had cancer that they can't have health insurance because they missed a deadline, I made bad choices. I decided that I had to prove to myself that I could have sex again, I had not since the rape. I hooked up with this co-worker, telling him it was just a hookup and nothing more. I had to get super drunk to do it because of the trauma of what had happened before and because I wasn't really attracted to this guy.

After that incident, we never spoke again. Until recently when he reached out to me.

It was kind of like a full circle moment because I realized the whole thing that happened with my coworker was sort of karma. It even happened in October not too long after the anniversary of my attack. I knew from my experience of being fixated on my coworker for the past 9 months that his feelings were not going to go away only increase the more contact I had with him. I was a very different person 3 years ago and it's hard to grapple with my past actions.

But I did take accountability in that conversation. I told him about my mental state back then and that I was just trying to be normal after I had been assaulted, I apologized for the impact it might have had on him. I hope he gets resolution from that. I did what I can but now he has to deal with the rest.

The age difference alone is scary and it amazes me that young women invite this sometimes while often the man is a predator. I honestly never liked big age differences in relationships in general while friendships are different there should still be boundaries. I guess this is just old values talking even though it has been a problem for a crazy long time.

 

[slant]

The age difference alone is scary and it amazes me that young women invite this sometimes while often the man is a predator. I honestly never liked big age differences in relationships in general while friendships are different there should still be boundaries. I guess this is just old values talking even though it has been a problem for a crazy long time.

Yeah I also feel the age difference is predatory. I find it inappropriate for a 45 year old man to be fixated on a 27 year old woman that he knew 3 years ago. Definitely.

 

[Deleted member 16771]

I understand what you're saying and I have friendships like that. However, they're rare. I've been friends with someone for 6 years and because we understand/respect each other enough even when she dropped off the face of the planet for 6 months when we talked again nothing had changed and I never held it against her. That's a best friend, a close friend.

Exactly.

Most of my friends I am not that close with. I do not feel obligated to them. Maybe by your definition they wouldn't be friends but moreso acquaintances. In order to reach that "close friend" level I have to feel a certain amount of emotional intimacy and trust with them. I do not feel that with all of my friends.

There are different levels of closeness.

Hmm.

I don't need 'emotional intimacy' with my friends, just trust. I can be open with anyone, I'm not particularly 'guarded', but true 'emotional intimacy' I reserve for SOs.

I think with this guy you seem to have too many expectations of him - he needs to 'work on himself', &c. I'm really puzzled at that approach, but I understand what you're trying to protect against.

Sometimes I see the whole contemporary imperative around 'boundaries' to have some really quite cruel side-effects, where people become hypervigilant closed units. Ultimately the 'boundaries discourse' prolongs people seeing others as risks or potential risks, exacerbating threat-seeking behaviour. I'm not sure that it's a particularly healthy approach at all.

 

[Deleted member 16771]

I didn't think you were implying that, and this guy I'm talking about is not a bad guy either. The situation is nuanced and complicated; both of us contributed to it.

See, in October of 2016 I was raped pretty violently. The following year in 2017 was the lowest point in my entire life. I was a psychological mess. This guy is 45 years old now so back then he would have been 42 and I would have been 24. He developed a crush on me, and I knew he had a crush on me but I didn't know what to do about it. I told him we were coworkers and could only be friends. When I eventually had a nervous breakdown because of the stress of having to tell people on a daily basis who had cancer that they can't have health insurance because they missed a deadline, I made bad choices. I decided that I had to prove to myself that I could have sex again, I had not since the rape. I hooked up with this co-worker, telling him it was just a hookup and nothing more. I had to get super drunk to do it because of the trauma of what had happened before and because I wasn't really attracted to this guy.

After that incident, we never spoke again. Until recently when he reached out to me.

It was kind of like a full circle moment because I realized the whole thing that happened with my coworker was sort of karma. It even happened in October not too long after the anniversary of my attack. I knew from my experience of being fixated on my coworker for the past 9 months that his feelings were not going to go away only increase the more contact I had with him. I was a very different person 3 years ago and it's hard to grapple with my past actions.

But I did take accountability in that conversation. I told him about my mental state back then and that I was just trying to be normal after I had been assaulted, I apologized for the impact it might have had on him. I hope he gets resolution from that. I did what I can but now he has to deal with the rest

Well I missed this edit...

I didn't know you had slept together, or under such circumstances.

This isn't a friendship, this is a 'it's complicated', and about that I don't have much to say because it's beyond my experience. Fucked if I know. Good luck!

You should probably just cut ties.

 

[slant]

Exactly.


Hmm.

I don't need 'emotional intimacy' with my friends, just trust. I can be open with anyone, I'm not particularly 'guarded', but true 'emotional intimacy' I reserve for SOs.

I think with this guy you seem to have too many expectations of him - he needs to 'work on himself', &c. I'm really puzzled at that approach, but I understand what you're trying to protect against.

Sometimes I see the whole contemporary imperative around 'boundaries' to have some really quite cruel side-effects, where people become hypervigilant closed units. Ultimately the 'boundaries discourse' prolongs people seeing others as risks or potential risks, exacerbating threat-seeking behaviour. I'm not sure that it's a particularly healthy approach at all.

That's okay, we are allowed to feel differently about things.

Boundaries are very important to me because I was raised to believe that my only purpose to be alive is to please other people and to have no wants or needs or my own, and that by having preferences of my own I was a bad evil person not deserving of love. When you feel like you aren't allowed to be a person, that other people are always more important than you are, you get used to being treated in unhealthy ways.

Now as an adult who is no longer dependent upon people who forced me to placate their every emotional need, I honor myself when I feel I don't want to spend time with a person. It took me a long time to get to the point without feeling guilty as if I have to be there for every single person all the time no matter what. I am proud of myself. That's my perspective and you are free to have your own.

 

[slant]

Well I missed this edit...

I didn't know you had slept together, or under such circumstances.

This isn't a friendship, this is a 'it's complicated', and about that I don't have much to say because it's beyond my experience. Fucked if I know. Good luck!

You should probably just cut ties.

That's what I did. Which you didn't like. Lol.

 

[Deleted member 16771]

That's what I did. Which you didn't like. Lol.

Context people, context!

 

[Roses In The Vineyard]

That's okay, we are allowed to feel differently about things.

Boundaries are very important to me because I was raised to believe that my only purpose to be alive is to please other people and to have no wants or needs or my own, and that by having preferences of my own I was a bad evil person not deserving of love. When you feel like you aren't allowed to be a person, that other people are always more important than you are, you get used to being treated in unhealthy ways.

Now as an adult who is no longer dependent upon people who forced me to placate their every emotional need, I honor myself when I feel I don't want to spend time with a person. It took me a long time to get to the point without feeling guilty as if I have to be there for every single person all the time no matter what. I am proud of myself. That's my perspective and you are free to have your own.

Sounds like you were raised by narcs as they often do stuff like this to their kids where basically the kids don't have lives of their own at all having to serve every need every whim of the parents. Congrats on finally getting to own yourself and not being a slave to others.

 

[slant]

Sounds like you were raised by narcs as they often do stuff like this to their kids where basically the kids don't have lives of their own at all having to serve every need every whim of the parents. Congrats on finally getting to own yourself and not being a slave to others.

I view it a bit more nuanced than that. Both of my parents had extremely abusive childhoods and used drugs and alcohol to cope. They were never really able to work through their trauma and resorted to unhealthy behavior. It's a bit better now that I'm an adult they've become more self aware in their old age. I have a lot of compassion for my parents because I know they loved me and were just emotionally immature and not really adequately prepared to be parents.

I think, to an extent, everyone's parents screw them up because humans are imperfect. It's just that my parents had experienced such extreme abuse that they didn't know how to be normal. Hope that makes sense.

 

[Misty]

Exactly.


Hmm.

I don't need 'emotional intimacy' with my friends, just trust. I can be open with anyone, I'm not particularly 'guarded', but true 'emotional intimacy' I reserve for SOs.

I think with this guy you seem to have too many expectations of him - he needs to 'work on himself', &c. I'm really puzzled at that approach, but I understand what you're trying to protect against.

Sometimes I see the whole contemporary imperative around 'boundaries' to have some really quite cruel side-effects, where people become hypervigilant closed units. Ultimately the 'boundaries discourse' prolongs people seeing others as risks or potential risks, exacerbating threat-seeking behaviour. I'm not sure that it's a particularly healthy approach at all.

Agreed

 

[Cornerstone]

I view it a bit more nuanced than that. Both of my parents had extremely abusive childhoods and used drugs and alcohol to cope. They were never really able to work through their trauma and resorted to unhealthy behavior. It's a bit better now that I'm an adult they've become more self aware in their old age. I have a lot of compassion for my parents because I know they loved me and were just emotionally immature and not really adequately prepared to be parents.

I think, to an extent, everyone's parents screw them up because humans are imperfect. It's just that my parents had experienced such extreme abuse that they didn't know how to be normal. Hope that makes sense.

This post resonated with me a lot, especially the word 'compassion'. I feel similarly but don't ever feel comfortable telling my parents that I love them but I do feel for them. Also, it reminded me of this poem:

They fuck you up, your mum and dad.
They may not mean to, but they do.
They fill you with the faults they had
And add some extra, just for you.

But they were fucked up in their turn
By fools in old-style hats and coats,
Who half the time were soppy-stern
And half at one another’s throats.

Man hands on misery to man.
It deepens like a coastal shelf.
Get out as early as you can,
And don’t have any kids yourself.

As for the title question, it's tricky. As someone with low-ish self esteem who can act as though I don't (which one is the act?), I'd say that, in my experience, dependency is the main issue. I used to be more suspicious of people who showed an interest in me in a 'what's your angle/what do you want?' kind of way and then it moved to something more akin to 'I think I'm inferior so if you think I'm superior (i.e. interesting), you are definitely inferior'...which is not a great way of living, especially when affection is confused for admiration...there can be no equality in any relationship, romantic or otherwise.

So, in short, whilst I still have those feelings of low self-esteem, I can also say 'that pleasant interaction was a pleasant interaction' and not need MORE of the good thing. I wouldn't say I'm ready for a 'significant other' relationship yet because of that emotional immaturity that I don't want to pass on any further so it's not a case that it's not possible but I think it requires the person with the self-esteem issues to have insight into them and take responsibility for them because nobody is, or should be expected to, save someone from themselves...as much I sometimes wish that wasn't the case.

 

[KimChiRx]

The thing for me is that I don't like how people with low self esteem behave.

No one does, right?

So this seems like contradictory information. Yes, it's possible to have a healthy relationship with people with low self esteem, no you shouldnt be friends with someone you expect to change/ don't like.

Help me out?

So the question in faith terms for me would be if someone is lacking faith or as in human terms here- self esteem- is that forgivable? Yes. If someone denies that they have a responsibility to it and to work on it, is that responsible? No.

 

[dragulagu]

What's the point of this post, dragu?

Serious answer: I wanted to show a global perspective on how we as a humanity are evolving now for the sake of example both with this video and the other one...it's just surreal to me.
Noticing a general trend where people are getting more isolated and stressed out in these years because of how the world is running now (especially on 2020).
And was agreeing with Roses there on the cutting off attitude in general, it being a modern era thing I see too often happening. Really dislike it.

Having reread the thread here, it came off wrong, not the intention. I should stop with the devil's advocate bullshit play though, doesn't work well for the sake of discussion.

 

[dragulagu]

And extending to that: Gathering and maintaining self-esteem in these modern times is pretty difficult (generally, personally).

 

[slant]

And was agreeing with Roses there on the cutting off attitude in general, it being a modern era thing I see too often happening. Really dislike it.

I know this is not specifically geared towards me, but I don't understand this thought process.

What confuses me about it is that it seems to imply that we should be forced to talk to/interact with/spend time with people who we do not want to.

Of course there are circumstances in life where we must; like at work or family get togethers, for example.

Yet in our personal life I feel we have the right to pick who we want to associate with. Clarification would be helpful.

 

[acd]

So this has been bothering me:
I think feelers and maybe particularly NFs have a natural inclination to want to help people, or have a hard time saying no to people. We want to please. Maybe boundaries are difficult for those of us with this temperament. Could be due to upbringing or just nature. So I don't think it's helpful to say that it's cruel to cut people off. I think there's a bit of personal suffering injected into that statement. NFs have to work to build defenses and boundaries. What comes natural for some is quite a task for others. And tbh, no one is entitled to any sort of relationship with anyone (unless it's child/parent). Relationships are supposed to be built on mutuality.