Introverted thinking.

[Reon]

The topic is simple enough and generally aimed at any type that has introverted thinking (The types most in abundance would be INFJs and INTPs on this forum, I think.) The best way to phrase this question (atm) is how exactly do you use your Ti function? What problem would you use as an example to show what the core of Ti is (as compared to Te) From my understanding I always assumed Ti was very analytical, it constantly looks at a piece of information and tries to make sure it makes sense even in that 'one' specific case or so.

I have more to say but I can't think of the correct way to say it at the moment, I'll probably update in a few hours (or after a few posts.) The reason I want to know this information is because I'm still trying to discriminate between INFJ and INTJ(or TP, but I find that unlikely), and I suspect this well help.

 

[On my own path]

Ti for me deconstructs a piece of information into its constituent parts or facets, it also checks to ensure that I adhere to - in an argument or discussion- to the principles that I am debating in the first place or to the philosophical and scientific principles I hold onto in general - for example when discussing any of my general observations about people, I ensure to include the word general, to precisely define what I observed as something general and not something that is unquestionably universally true . It also helps me to be precise in my writing and speech giving weight to the " nuances" between terms- for example between frigid and cold, each denotes the same " thing" but at disparate intensities, within different contexts and with different implications.

 

[Tamagochi]

Hmm a general description for Ti is "think before you speak". That includes going through analyzing, simulations, daydreaming etc. inside your head.

Te is thinking while you speak, coming with logical answer on the spot. I always feel uneasy when forced to do that. I tend to retreat for at least a few seconds and go through the matter inside my mind before speaking out.

 

[Norton]

I'm not sure, really, how to explain introverted thinking, at least the way I do it. As an INTP, it's my primary function, as it is for all INTP's. I do know that, for as long as I can remember, I've lived inside my head, oblivious to much around me. I like to think hard and rigorously about complex things, problems, and questions. It is a great pleasure and something I can do wherever I am, so I'm never bored. I'm kind of isolated in a way. I don't care much what others think of me in the sense that style, fashion, peer group affirmation, etc. mean little to me. Actually, when it comes to style, I do try to be unnoticeable, so I'm neither stylish nor whatever the opposite of stylish is(?). Anyway, since Ti thinking is such a pleasure I do it a lot and, as such, am pretty good at it. This may be why many INTP's may appear intelligent. They think a lot and anything you do a lot and enjoy, you get good at. I think about mathematics, systems, physics, engineering, chemistry, psychology, sociology, philosophy--just about everything. I don't often talk about what I'm thinking about, though. I've made my living as an engineer and inventor. I started three companies as a result of some of my ideas. As you might imagine, as a strong INTP, I needed partners in my entrepreneurial pursuits. No matter who you are, you need to know your limitations and compensate by either hard work and practice and/or by partnering with others.

My Ti relies on my Ne to bring in information and data with which to work. I'm a strong INTP in all ways, best especially in N, which for me regularly tests at 100%. I never considered myself the best engineer at places I've worked. However, I think I was the best problem solver. It seems that I most enjoy solving problems that others have given up on. I've worked on radar systems, avionics systems, implantable defibrillators, implantable insulin pumps, satellite electronics, search software, embedded software control systems for unmanned aircraft, chemical and bio-sensors, etc. All these things were interesting to me because they allowed me to come up with new ideas and inventions and, best of all, there were people around me to actually build the systems. For me and I think for many INTP's, after we've thought of the answer, we're finished. We're happy to let others implement the results of our thinking. This is a major weakness of INTP's, one that I've necessarily struggled to overcome. I've done okay, though.

I tend to think abstractly. I am good at making internal models and emulators of complex systems in my mind. So, when analyzing and/or designing a circuit or software system, I almost have a visceral feeling for how it will work. I "know" what it's like to be in the circuit. I know this sounds strange, but that's the way it is for me. Unfortunately, I also abstract much of what I see around me into virtual models in my head. This doesn't work very well for noticing details in the immediate environment or in dealing with people. I've become more balanced, though, with age. But, I'm very introverted and private, so my social interactions are rather limited to family and a small group of long time friends.

 

[Reon]

Hmm a general description for Ti is "think before you speak". That includes going through analyzing, simulations, daydreaming etc. inside your head.

Te is thinking while you speak, coming with logical answer on the spot. I always feel uneasy when forced to do that. I tend to retreat for at least a few seconds and go through the matter inside my mind before speaking out.

From reading Norton's post (Great post btw) and what I've read, I always assumed Ti was more analytical and such like you said (I noticed in Norton's post that it seems like he deconstructs problems and solves them but he doesn't seem to construct ideas in a manner that I think would resemble "te" (and, yes, I am explaining this badly))

I never thought of Te as a function based on coming up with a answer on the spot. I always thought Te was making systems and such, looking at how small details will affect the big picture and what you are trying to do, while Ti focuses on the small details to a point where a system can be made specifically for that detail.

 

[BlinkandThink]

I always thought Te was making systems and such, looking at how small details will affect the big picture and what you are trying to do

It is, because it's about getting things done. It's practical ... the same way that Fe is practical in a way that Fi isn't.



ADD: The thinking while speaking thing seems to be confusing extroversion, in general, with the extroverted thinking function.

 

[mooseman]

An exercise for Ti that I just found:

Blue Eyes: The hardest logic puzzle in the world

"The hardest in the world" is an exaggeration, but I think the solution has a pleasant mystery to it.

Solution to the Blue Eyes Puzzle




Edit: Or is it Te?

 

[IndigoSensor]

From reading Norton's post (Great post btw) and what I've read, I always assumed Ti was more analytical and such like you said (I noticed in Norton's post that it seems like he deconstructs problems and solves them but he doesn't seem to construct ideas in a manner that I think would resemble "te" (and, yes, I am explaining this badly))

I never thought of Te as a function based on coming up with a answer on the spot. I always thought Te was making systems and such, looking at how small details will affect the big picture and what you are trying to do, while Ti focuses on the small details to a point where a system can be made specifically for that detail.

You explained this pretty well. That is the difference between Ti and Te.

 

[roxtehproxy]

Sorry to necrobump, but I feel a strong urge to share with those who don't already know what the differences are.

The topic is simple enough and generally aimed at any type that has introverted thinking (The types most in abundance would be INFJs and INTPs on this forum, I think.) The best way to phrase this question (atm) is how exactly do you use your Ti function?

Introverted Thinking to me filters out everything around me. If someone else is talking and someone else is using this function, they distance themselves, and gain clarity into what everything means. If you say, 'how was your day?', to me, Ti could improvise any response that is both objective and it's terms itself clear. I could ask for more insight and say, 'what do you mean?', and even that itself is an example of Ti. My response is to understand what the person is asking for. 'Were they implying something? Is this my colleague? Should I bother to even respond? They look like they're working for someone else.'. Even that is an example of Ti, at it's vaguest.

I have a much better understanding of it, now that I program much more. You might not even realize you do it sometimes. Some parts of engineering require you to use Ti.

What problem would you use as an example to show what the core of Ti is (as compared to Te)

Ti seeks for clarity of terms, Te looks for efficiency in terms. Even shortening this response right here to cut through everything and respond to you is a loose example of Te. You might use Te to number crunch in games like WoW, where you're keeping eye on cooldowns, distance, available spells etc, for the highest payoff.

From my understanding I always assumed Ti was very analytical, it constantly looks at a piece of information and tries to make sure it makes sense even in that 'one' specific case or so.

Ti is analytical, but is always subjective. How you understand something will differ to everyone else. Though with Te, it's much more likely someone else will produce the same result. Both are considerably important, like every other function.

 

[technics]

I have an example: I was watching this episode of MacGyver where physics students have to open the sophistically barricaded dorm rooms of their colleagues.

And while I was watching this, I was always thinking why not just use a pry bar? Of course, in that contest it's illegal to use brute force. But it really annoyed me how time was wasted here.

If you enjoy solving such things elegantly then you're using Ti. If you just want to get in you'll be using Te.

 

[justeccentricnotinsane]

I sound a lot like [MENTION=1678]Norton[/MENTION]

The things I recognised most were:
- living in my own head
- thinking constantly (about everything - physics, sociology, personal things usually or just any puzzle that I come across)
- I definitely recognise the "just know" or "just feel" example you gave of virtual models in you head. Yes. Yes exactly that. I couldn't have put it better. But I find that mine are very abstract and feel, well, visceral like you say, but not speakable. I wouldn't necessarily be able to tell others until I laid it out in front of me and organised it. My thoughts don't really organise themselves because they tend to be pretty vague theoretical models, although I can see how each constitute part fits together and I experience it as a holistic "whole" idea. I need to put everything on paper to put it into a logical order, though, because I tend to see everything as concurrent rather than linear and I need to see it separately on pieces of paper before I can decide an order (because nothing's separate in my mind). I don't think any of that made sense, did it?

The other thing I think of that might be Ti is personal logic. I tend to live on assumptions that I naturally believe are "true". My Ti-dom boyfriend does exactly the same thing. We both tend to answer people's questions according to "what must be logically true" (even if we've never met with the subject matter before) rather than actually looking up a fact or citing something or thinking of something we've read. Basically, we apply models to unseen situations. I tend to have a bunch of models in my head that apply themselves to everything. I don't deliberately apply them. It's more like I'm looking through the model as a lens. Both me and bf tend to trust what our own personal logic tells us and we only tend to see ONE possibility, which is why it's so easy to come up with the answer. So far, we've both been basically right on our assumptions (and I think we'd both notice if it "feels wrong", which is how I usually know there's something wrong) but we always look up the answer if we're not sure because neither of us could stand the idea of not knowing the answer.

Other things I can think of is that I feel very uncomfortable if things don't "make sense". I am not a blind faith person and I'm not ok with things being "just that way because" rather than having a reason and a logical causation. This seems weird for someone who lives their life based on gut reactions and logical assumptions, but those things in themselves feel that they "make sense", they have their own logic, so it's ok. But I can spot a hole in an argument a mile off. If it doesn't make sense, I know immediately, however, I don't necessarily actually know WHY or HOW it doesn't make sense, that comes later, I have to let it simmer or talk to someone else about it. But I know that it doesn't!

One other thing that may be useful but I'm struggling to separate Ti from other things. When someone says "what's this?" pointing to a word or an object. I tell them how it works instead of what it is. It occurred to me on the way into work today that that's probably a Ti thing. I tend to tell people the principle behind things rather than a straightforward answer - which is the less honest answer in the end.

I also agree with the person who says about changing words or picking the best ones. Essays took hours when I was at uni because I studied highly conceptual stuff and it was difficult to pin down unless you got just the right word. I also clarify if I am talking generally or specifically and I tend to come back and reedit posts if I feel I have used the wrong word, giving off the wrong nuance.

 

[TheFoolishOwl]

To me, Ti is analytical, logical, brain-eating, knowledge-seeker, creator of a logical system which aims at finding a universal truth or something like this, subjective, disorganised and inefficient.

Ti is extremely picky and strives for accuracy, it tends to be critical (and probably seems arrogant) and slow, it lacks spontaneity and is never satisfied.

Ti is subjective and dellusionned. It hopes to build a logical universal system while it is entirely linked to the self and knows it can easily manipulate logic to make up bullshit (and Ti can be quite a troll when it does that).

Ti can be too analytical for its own sake and associated with inferior Fe, it may have a tendency to overanalyse feelings, put them into the irationnal category, rationalise them and put them into the background because they do not make sense. I am not unhappy with that because I am becoming more in tune with my feelings now that people respect my coldness and that I am growing up but I'll admit that Ti can prevent you from having a relationship sometimes.

Plus, I am pathologically using Ti all the time and I must say that analysing everything, everyact even the most natural ones (let's say kissing) is completely strange.

But Ti wants to understand. To be accurate. To take decisons and leave the "doubt" area. (though, as a Ne user, I feel more comfortable when I am doubting.) but the decision does not necessary need to be practical or even related to the real world.

Ti sounds great and smart because Ti is a knowledge seeker and absorbs information constantly but the truth is : Ti can miss the point greatly sometimes. I even wonder whether Ti may not be responsible for me taking things literally sometimes as Ti analyses the meaning of a word as it thinks it should work.

Since NTs like to claim their mathematical superiority (joke), I would say that Ti is maths for its system, random calculus made for fun which are purely abstract while Te is maths applied to the real world and coming from the real world.

 

[Lea]

I use it when I study science and generally when creating anything with structure such as lesson plans, essay plans any kind of design really...

It's also the function I use to rip a part the logic of people with Fi or Fe who are getting on my nerves. I know that I come across as a totally ruthless, unfeeling bitch... but some people deserve that kind of treatment... I guess that's my Ti speaking now lol

In our society T rather than F arguments tend to be more respected so I have found it useful to develop Ti.

Tertiary: Introverted Thinking (Ti)


The downside of Fe, of course, is that it depends exclusively on the judgments of others in its ongoing effort to be judged as a morally sound example of the best values its communities (friends, family, coworkers, any groups to which the INFJ feels emotionally connected and responsible for) hold dearly. One may wonder, then, where the INFJ's sense of personal principles originates, if Ni simply perceives as many conceptual possibilities as it can, while Fe derives its evaluative principles from the moral fabric of its external surroundings.

Enter tertiary Ti: When all else fails and no meaningful conclusion can be reached via the Ni-Fe approach, the INFJ will turn inward again and listen to whatever his conscience tells him is inherently consistent, fair, and reasonable. The value in Ti's approach here is that it provides a sense of definite and complete closure to an INFJ in the middle of a conflict over which set of external moral values should be granted highest priority. Return to the basic axioms of what we do know for sure: "I think, therefore I am." When externally derived moral values have become too convoluted or too compromised to be trusted with a personal decision, Ti steps in to provide a personalized logical framework which can be universally applied regardless of context.

It gives us something we can know for sure because it seems inherently correct and consistent in and of itself, and that can be quite a relief in times of internal strife. When an INFJ gets overloaded with too many possible interpretations of a problem, and can't find any useful objective guidance, he turns to Ti to decide what's ultimately reasonable and important to him. From this he can derive personal convictions and find a way to make private value judgments without feeling he is neglecting the vital opinions of his community or locking himself into a limited interpretation.

Ti can have a negative impact when it's poorly developed or when it blocks out Fe to an unhealthy degree--the NiTi loop INFJ is brutally anti-social and absolutely clueless as to how to relate to the rest of humanity. One INFJ friend describes Ni as, "a very deep hole that it's very easy to get lost in and never come back."

NiTi loop can have even worse implications: If Fe is weak or underdeveloped enough, the INFJ may display so few outward signs of emotion that he is seen as uncaring, unsympathetic, selfish, and pretentious. Ti suggests a framework of logic for dealing with a problem, but there's no source of objective data to stop Ni from noting all the inherent assumptions in Ti's approach and short circuiting the INFJ's confidence in his entire cognitive process.

In the end, Ti serves a useful and much-needed assistant to Fe in the judgment process, but it will not function on its own as an adequate substitute for objective, externalized Feeling judgment.

 

[roxtehproxy]

Nice post, Lea. I have to say however, not all INFJs fallback on Ti as you describe, some try to proactively strengthen it like I do.

 

[Lea]

My take on the difference between Te and Ti with intuition:

Te organises things and people as if they were physical pieces on a chess board and then will attempt to do this in the real world literally. People with over developed Te believe that if they reorganize people physically (eg organisations) that they will reorganize things mentally in people's mind. I worked in an organisation where we had constant reorganisations materminded by NTJs who somehow believed that just by reshuffling the seats and changing a few rules imposed from above the fundamental way in which the organisation functioned would change. When things didn't work they just reorganised things once again and the whole system became more and more inefficient.

Ti creates an abstraction of the external world... then states this is how it is... there is no attempt at any reshaping of the external world using this function in the same way Te does this.

 

[Lea]

Nice post, Lea. I have to say however, not all INFJs fallback on Ti as you describe, some try to proactively strengthen it like I do.

I agree, the second part of my post was something I found on a website.... sorry should have been more precise!!

 

[InvisibleJim]

My take on the difference between Te and Ti with intuition:

Te organises things and people as if they were physical pieces on a chess board and then will attempt to do this in the real world literally. People with over developed Te believe that if they reorganize people physically (eg organisations) that they will reorganize things mentally in people's mind. I worked in an organisation where we had constant reorganisations materminded by NTJs who somehow believed that just by reshuffling the seats and changing a few rules imposed from above the fundamental way in which the organisation functioned would change. When things didn't work they just reorganised things once again and the whole system became more and more inefficient.

Ti creates an abstraction of the external world... then states this is how it is... there is no attempt at any reshaping of the external world using this function in the same way Te does this.

Very good, now you are getting it.

Te is a useful skill for telling you what is and shouldn't be on a strictly fact driven basis.

The biggest error is miscategorised Si-Te users trying to re-organise things in a non organic way. *shudders at an ESTJ boss I used to have to 'manage' at a National oil company and the effect on her employees of her micromanaging their work structures*

If it doesn't have that cohesive 'click' and sense of satisfaction that Ni gives then it doesn't function well, ever. Ni has a great tendency for building inertia positive and resilient structures. Of course this can be damaging to an organisation if it is a means to itself as opposed to a means to a goal.

Organisation must be a consequence of organic growth and strong decision making, however, we should be careful in terms of expecting 'peacetime' management strategies in a 'wartime' environment.

 

[Lea]

Guess I have a bias for Ti/Fe solutions to problems.

 

[InvisibleJim]

Guess I have a bias for Ti/Fe solutions to problems.

We all have our biases. Cognitive preference!



I thought you might consider this relevant to your interests: http://www.businessinsider.com/peac...rm=&utm_content=&utm_campaign=sai-contributor

 

[Lea]

Very good, now you are getting it.

Te is a useful skill for telling you what is and shouldn't be on a strictly fact driven basis.

The biggest error is miscategorised Si-Te users trying to re-organise things in a non organic way. *shudders at an ESTJ boss I used to have to 'manage' at a National oil company and the effect on her employees of her micromanaging their work structures*

If it doesn't have that cohesive 'click' and sense of satisfaction that Ni gives then it doesn't function well, ever. Ni has a great tendency for building inertia positive and resilient structures. Of course this can be damaging to an organisation if it is a means to itself as opposed to a means to a goal.

Organisation must be a consequence of organic growth and strong decision making, however, we should be careful in terms of expecting 'peacetime' management strategies in a 'wartime' environment.

This big ENTJ boss once said to an audience composed mainly of research engineers most of whom I recon were NTs and I quote: "From now on we must use fact based management ". To which my INTP colleague replied: "So what have we been using until now?" She never did answer the question. The reason I know she was an ENTJ is that my INTJ friend typed her!

The biggest mistake some Te(s) make is that they hold a monopoly over "the facts", that everybody else has not got "the facts".

Some people process "the facts" differently and it's never a bad idea to play around with other people's ideas as if in a parallel universe that might also be the one you are actually in ;-)