Interesting estimations on world population

[melatonin]

I dunno, man, I'm with Arsal on this- I too am a 'Muslim-born-turned-atheist' (though it is more accurate to say 'Muslim-born-turned-nonreligious').

I think you're underestimating the culture shift we're having, especially with my generation. Many of my friends are atheist or nonreligious simply because they are more informed about the universe from a scientific standpoint and are all about the idea of individualism.

If anything, we're leaning more towards a secular society.

 

[Sensiko]

I dunno, man, I'm with Arsal on this- I too am a 'Muslim-born-turned-atheist' (though it is more accurate to say 'Muslim-born-turned-nonreligious').

I think you're underestimating the culture shift we're having, especially with my generation. Many of my friends are atheist or nonreligious simply because they are more informed about the universe from a scientific standpoint and are all about the idea of individualism.

If anything, we're leaning more towards a secular society.

Do you find that you and your friends get a lot of flack from your parents? If so, how much?

 

[melatonin]

Do you find that you and your friends get a lot of flack from your parents? If so, how much?

You betcha *wide, toothy grin*

But honestly, it's different for everyone- some are accepting, others not. My parents are uncomfortable with my decision but choose not to interfere. You have to admit, the whole idea of beliving whatever makes sense to you personally is pretty appealing, no?

And I should rephrase; If anything, we're leaning more towards a *liberal religious society.
Regardless of how many atheists I claim to know, there are still many religious people out there. I just feel as if those who are religious are more accepting and open to interpretations of their beliefs as well as the ideas and concepts that science brings to light.

 

[VH]

Then let me ask the questions that may seem offensive, but since many of us are not Muslim nor have much contact with Muslims the only way to know is to ask...

Are you ever afraid/apprehensive of being persecuted by Islamic extremists for not believing as they do?

Do you feel that they would turn on you for 'turning your back on the faith'?

Most importantly, how tempted would you be to stand up to these sorts of people if they began to do bad things to others?

 

[lenina]

@VH
http://www.loonwatch.com/2010/01/terrorism-in-europe/

 

[melatonin]

Then let me ask the questions that may seem offensive, but since many of us are not Muslim nor have much contact with Muslims the only way to know is to ask...

Are you ever afraid/apprehensive of being persecuted by Islamic extremists for not believing as they do?

Do you feel that they would turn on you for 'turning your back on the faith'?

Most importantly, how tempted would you be to stand up to these sorts of people if they began to do bad things to others?

Well, I appreciate that you're being rational and asking questions as opposed to making wild assumptions and being blatantly offensive (mind you I have taken no offense at this point). To answer:

I am nor afraid of being persecuted by Muslim extremists as much as I am of any other radical who follows a belief to an unreasonable extent. They're as much of a threat as Muslims extremists; as humans, we are all capable of throwing hateful words, threats, and becoming violent.

I get criticized occasionally for not being religious, but I associate myself with levelheaded and civilized people who understand the concepts of respect and empathy. And I don't see it as 'turning my back on faith'; Islam never quite 'fit' me as a person, I've always felt that, so I don't think I consider myself as turning my back on anything if I never truly believed in the first place. My parents find solace and personal satisfaction in following Islam, and I truly respect and even admire how at peace they are with themselves. I'm still wandering for the moment, figuring myself out, but I know in my heart that I can't find what I'm looking for in any form of organized religion.

As for standing up to extremists if I see 'bad things' being done, well of course I would. If I see someone being mugged on the street or a peer being wrongfully persecuted for whatever reason, damn right I will help! I will do everything in my power to do what I feel is right and any injustice, religious or not, is good enough provocation for me to take action.

 

[88chaz88]

I'm not sure why we've allowed ourselves to develop the inability to do so, but for some reason modern society has really lost the ability to differentiate between people.

Because that's always worked swimmingly in the thousands of years we've been doing this. Lets keep it up in the nuclear age and see where that gets us.

 

[Arsal]

@VH,

The problem is that the word 'Muslim' is being used as a substitute for power-hungry leaders who use Islamic doctrine as a means to safe-guard their own position in the social and political hierarchy. The problem is that there is a constant political strife within the Muslim world, which bears anger and resentment, and leads to extreme versions of personal faith we see in terrorism today. The problem is that rather than trying to stabilize, there is only effort to repress and eradicate and demonize Muslims, which is classically a xenophobic and racist sentiment.

I will not deny that Islamic radicalzz are a threat, but only because of their followers, who are vulnerable to promises of a greater meaning, because they are bitter, and sad, and poor, and cannot tend to their families or teach their children. Because they are treated like shit and discriminated against. Because they come from countries where there is looming threat of being bombed at any second.

Please do not lose sight of what might have led to their positions. Please do not lose sight of the fact that we are all human.

 

[Sunkmanitu Tanka]

Taking an objective look at the conversation i find the three videos presented are pretty interesting. Sure, the last one by Lenina proved radical muslims are unlikely to be an extreme threat as of now, but that says nothing about what the future might entail if the video presented by the OP is correct. Whether or not the radicalists are simply poor has nothing to do with it Arsal, point is they're there.

Regardless, I'm not too concerned about radicalists seeing as a much larger threat seems possible. In case anyone ignored the second video posted, it said 40% of muslims wish a their theocracy be reinstated and 30% belived Americans were immoral (though that's absolutely true). But if a traditionalist theocracy were to be instated then, as the Flavus Aquila's second video said, is it possible that stoning or amputation may become punishments? Don't get me wrong, I'm as much afraid of the Christian conservatives who've tried to grab hold of the government. But an Islamic religious influence seems much more likely with the statistics posted in the OP (I'm assuming they're true, despite the racism dotting the language).

It WILL change some part of our culture. It has to. It's too big of a population change not to. Right now we have black rappers in half of the top 40 when only 50 years ago the were told to use seperate bathrooms. It's going to change things. Question is, how? Politics undoubtabley, media, any ideas? We're talking about a religious population increase similar to that of the Christian conservatice influence on government, not about radicalist muslims. Some stop bring the bull up. lol

Even if Muslim religion IS used by power-hungry leaders and not true intellectual muslims, fact remains. It's being used. So there's clearly a driving force.

 

[Barnabas]

Sounds like we got a 'nother crusade on our hands, I'll go sharpen my scalping knife.

But more one the subject of an ever increasing Muslim world population, I think the interesting things will be in the small things. What will the religious political debates look like? will people still debate about prayer in schools? Will we start seeing "I love Allah" T-shirts? "Mohammed is my co-pilot" bumper stickers?

Will a globally dominant Islam even look like what we call Islam now?

 

[Arsal]

Whether or not the radicalists are simply poor has nothing to do with it Arsal, point is they're there.

Yes, this is right, I'm just not very comfortable with the implied racism/xenophobia within many of the posts. The tone suggests it. I'm not sure divorcing people within groups and subgroups achieves anything, and I was trying to make a point regarding that.

 

[VH]

I think that the fear of being shunned by one's own friends and family is the greatest deterrent to unacceptable behavior - even more so than the possibility of being punished by society at large.

When people do wrong, those closest to them need to hold them accountable and shun them for it. The greatest problem with the groups of people / cultures that contain people who consistently do wrong is the fact that their friends and family not only will not divorce themselves of the people who do wrong, they support them - which essentially encourages the behavior.

I keep seeing reactions from within the Muslim community to violent Islamic radicals that amount to "Yeah, they're like that. Sorry." There is very little "Those people are not part of us, do not represent us or the faith, and we renounce their actions."

 

[88chaz88]

I keep seeing reactions from within the Muslim community to violent Islamic radicals that amount to "Yeah, they're like that. Sorry." There is very little "Those people are not part of us, do not represent us or the faith, and we renounce their actions."

I'd like to see a white protestant say the same about the KKK.

You're just picking and wiggling around things now because what's been said doesn't mesh with what you originally believed.

 

[Flavus Aquila]

You betcha *wide, toothy grin*

But honestly, it's different for everyone- some are accepting, others not. My parents are uncomfortable with my decision but choose not to interfere. You have to admit, the whole idea of beliving whatever makes sense to you personally is pretty appealing, no?

And I should rephrase; If anything, we're leaning more towards a *liberal religious society.
Regardless of how many atheists I claim to know, there are still many religious people out there. I just feel as if those who are religious are more accepting and open to interpretations of their beliefs as well as the ideas and concepts that science brings to light.

I don't think there is concern about liberal minded semi-secular muslims greatly increasing as a percentage of the population.

The central question that seemed implied in the OP video is about the suppression of Western culture. The implied assumption, which I agree with, is that muslims stand as a distinct (separate?) cultural group within other cultures/societies. There may be radical extremists who wish to burn down societies, but even moderate muslims would seem to form a part of a culturally distinct group, which does not integrate seamlessly into the societies they come in contact with.

The short-term keystone which could possibly act as a litmus test of whether European and Western society have anything to worry about is the law.
The question is: Will majority muslim populations keep Western laws, or seek to introduce the Sharia laws?

 

[VH]

I'd like to see a white protestant say the same about the KKK.

Do you mean the white protestants who arrested, prosecuted, and convicted every KKK member they could get their hands on to the point that the KKK is so underground that it has to meet in secret - and its membership has dwindled to almost nothing? Or do you mean the white protestants who took to the streets and protested against the KKK? Or are you talking about the white protestants that had a very notorious shoot out with the KKK in the 1970s?

Or perhaps, you're talking about the vast majority of white protestants that would happily state that "Those people are not part of us, do not represent us or the faith, and we renounce their actions" and have been for decades?

You're just picking and wiggling around things now because what's been said doesn't mesh with what you originally believed.

No, I'm stating a perspective based on perception, and am looking for a deeper truth and possible solution.

 

[Trifoilum]

So?

Not talking about the meta issue of whether should ANY religion go into power, is that so evil, unacceptable, unimaginable?

Naaaaaaaah, we'll (mostly) survive. ;| Especially the bigger cities. The smaller towns and villages will experience intense clash of groups, but in the end certain compromises will occur.

 

[VH]

So?

Not talking about the meta issue of whether should ANY religion go into power, is that so evil, unacceptable, unimaginable?

Naaaaaaaah, we'll (mostly) survive. ;| Especially the bigger cities. The smaller towns and villages will experience intense clash of groups, but in the end certain compromises will occur.

The problem comes when any group has strong enough belief in their cause that they are willing to both kill and die to promote it.

Radical Islamists have these traits, and that's far more troublesome than people simply being willing to kill for their beliefs because any leverage that could be mustered by threatening self preservation is off of the bargaining table. Therefore, eventual compromise isn't an option because compromise in clashes of ideology is based upon and develops from agreeing to mutual self preservation.

When the question "Are you going to try to kill me for disagreeing with you?" has to be asked, things are sketchy.

When the question "Are you going to try to kill us both for me disagreeing with you?" has to be asked, there's not a whole lot of room for "Can we talk about this?"

Obviously, I'm referring to Radical Islamists, and not Muslims in general, but this is an important issue for those who live in a day and age where it only takes one person flipping out to cause them and anyone they care about a whole lot of pain and suffering. This is exactly what the modern world is trying to avoid. How to deal with people like this, other than killing them first is a very good question since the idea of killing them first is entirely counter to the point of modern civilization.

 

[Trifoilum]

The problem comes when any group has strong enough belief in their cause that they are willing to both kill and die to promote it.

Radical Islamists have these traits, and that's far more troublesome than people simply being willing to kill for their beliefs because any leverage that could be mustered by threatening self preservation is off of the bargaining table. Therefore, eventual compromise isn't an option because compromise in clashes of ideology is based upon and develops from agreeing to mutual self preservation.

When the question "Are you going to try to kill me for disagreeing with you?" has to be asked, things are sketchy.

When the question "Are you going to try to kill us both for me disagreeing with you?" has to be asked, there's not a whole lot of room for "Can we talk about this?"

Obviously, I'm referring to Radical Islamists, and not Muslims in general, but this is an important issue for those who live in a day and age where it only takes one person flipping out to cause them and anyone they care about a whole lot of pain and suffering. This is exactly what the modern world is trying to avoid. How to deal with people like this, other than killing them first is a very good question since the idea of killing them first is entirely counter to the point of modern civilization.

There's really little point to discuss or argue about, isn't it?

I mean, can you, have you, and have you been able to discuss multiculturalism with some groups of people, radical Muslim included?
If I were to answer, the answer would be to merge them with modern society. Which generally, when shifts of power does happen, will. It's not like somehow around the Bible Belt there will suddenly be Muslim Town 1, Muslim Town 2, and I'm quite certain if any 'invasion' will happen, few will occur in small cities. Big cities are places where people, no matter what nationality or ethnicity or religion, will come, and big cities are generally diverse, especially for the future generations, even when certain grouping will happen.

Also, education.
But how -far- are we talking about here? I'm beginning to think you are searching to more...fundamental change.