Intellectual Maturity? | Page 3 | INFJ Forum

Intellectual Maturity?

Discussion in 'Relationships and Sociology' started by Hostarius, Oct 3, 2018.

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  1. OP
    Hostarius

    Hostarius L I G E T I C

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    Hi Ginny, just on the point about emotional intelligence, I think we ought to make the distinction between 'sensitivity' and 'censorship'. I wouldn't like to feel that something is off the table for discussion 'just because'.

    About your points on debating, I think we are of the same mind as to how you should go into them and how it should be done. Perhaps some people, however, are primarily in a threat-seeking mode when getting to know new people. They are concerned with spotting the red flags and uncovering a potential nutcase rather than weighing controversial ideas as an intellectual exercise.

    As people raise points here, however, I'm conscious of a balance that has to be struck in being interesting and challenging vs safe and acceptable, and to which side I would rather fall. I think I would probably rather be too challenging/antisocial than too safe, now that I think about it. Its not like I want to give people bad experiences, but that I'd rather risk that in pursuit of a better one.
     
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  2. OP
    Hostarius

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    Cheers, Ren. I'll keep an eye out of course, but I'm also conscious of the whole 'networking' thing you have to do to be successful in academia and therefore navigating these relationships carries more risk than perhaps it should.

    Maybe now is to time to seriously consider what sort of persona I want to cultivate?
     
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  3. hn&#Gu

    hn&#Gu Community Member

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    Good way to look at it I think the same but I also think people can be dangerous in their irrational thinking. You could be entirely correct and still bring unnecessary damage to yourself out of pride/stubbornness. Which is a fear mechanism. To weight the balance now that's the fun part.
     
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  4. hn&#Gu

    hn&#Gu Community Member

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    Also I would like a response from you i value your intellect.
     
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    Hostarius

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    Lmao, are you trolling me? I am not going to suggest critical thinking reading for them :tearsofjoy::tearsofjoy:

    'OK, guys, the other night you didn't really come up to snuff, so here're some books to help you improve. I expect better next time, ciao!'

    Yeah, it did come up that I was a little disappointed in them... don't get me wrong, they're nice people and are obviously of an intellectual bent, but I was clearly expecting something different.
     
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    Hostarius

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    I agree with this entirely, which is why I think it is preferable for everything to be out in the open and up for debate.

    If something isn't being consciously considered, it's probably being unconsciously considered - certain ideas, therefore, have a tendency to 'sit' in some corner of the mind, unchallenged by critical scrutiny.
     
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    Hostarius

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    Yes I think this is part of it - that I just 'assume' they will be on the same page based on how I feel about myself.

    But again it comes back to that active-passive balance problem. How much do you want to drive the conversation vs how much do you want to sit back and weigh what others are saying? And how much of one makes you a selfish conversationalist vs how much of the other makes you dull?

    I mean, it was me asking their thoughts, I wasn't swinging around my own opinions.
     
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  8. hn&#Gu

    hn&#Gu Community Member

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    I get you. It's hard for me to form a good opinion without being there. Do you feel the need to drive conversation or to be passive, what is your natural state?
     
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    Hostarius

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    I feel the need to drive conversation, especially if the other people in the party aren't doing that themselves.
     
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  10. hn&#Gu

    hn&#Gu Community Member

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    Why?
     
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  11. Puzzlenuzzle

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    Fair enough.. it's healthy when people can talk openly.. It can lead to amazing growth, opportunity, creation of wonderful life but then.. it can also just end up sometimes doing the total opposite.

    What we talk about or portray is merely the mirror of what is going on inside of us - that is literally what you portray into the world and that goes for everyone. Learning to read others, adapting to others and trying to understand them is incredibly important.

    Sometimes people just want to chill and relax. People relax in different ways - e.g. at times there won't be an idea coming out of my mouth because I'm tired, I won't be bothered to read a book, I will just want peace, jump in beds in IKEA, baking, etc... But then after few days I won't shut up about ideas etc. You know that but then that also goes for everyone else around us, including you. We all do it in different ways and that goes for those as well. Who knows maybe they are anxious about doing their Phd ? Maybe they miss home? maybe they are adjusting? etc Sometimes people just aren't in the mood and trying to nail down 'why' someone we don't know does what they do is a risky game. Most of the time it might even be wrong as we have no idea of what is going on in peoples lives. (Gut feeling usually is different different!)

    When we meet people they aren't just blank canvases. They have stories, scars, memories... history that is completely oblivious to us. That's why its important to adapt to people - there is more than one way to approach people, know their story, understand their limits. There is so much wonderful things you can learn about someone without touching difficult topics! And, usually, we end up learning one or two things about us.

    The reason for why I think it is important to take precaution when discussing controversial topics to people I barely know is because I don't know their story. I have no idea what they have lived through or seen. So basically, give people the benefit of the doubt. You've no idea why they reacted that way, assuming why someone does something won't help you unless you look inward and instead of contemplating on why they did. Ask them.. just drop it in a casual way "dude, want to go and get noodles. Oh, and... did I offend you the other day?" :)

    ps. cultural construct - political correctness.
     
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  12. Wyote

    Wyote ○●○
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    Dude, want to go and get noodles? @Hostarius can come too. Hope I haven't offended either of you. Let's be frands, then I can offend you and it won't matter.

    PS: I'm highly offensive
     
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  13. Puzzlenuzzle

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    :tearsofjoy: Frand, I see what you did there.
    ps. I didn't mean it like that:grimacing:
    [​IMG]
     
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  14. hn&#Gu

    hn&#Gu Community Member

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    Entirely unrelated but...

    doorwindow.png
     
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  15. Ren

    Ren Pin's android / The Maker

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    Oh yes, the networking thing... I completely forgot about that :p I guess I didn't do much of that at the time.

    And look where I'm at now. No academia for me. Sigh. Damn Enneagram 4.
     
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  16. Ren

    Ren Pin's android / The Maker

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    INTJ in hiding. ;)

    Regarding the persona, I don't mean to state the obvious but yeah, cultivate a bit of one, it doesn't mean you have to become someone else though. Sometimes the people who help you out in academia are those you have strong, solid bonds with, not the persona-based ones. It depends.
     
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  17. John K

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    There's a lot already been said that looks pretty good to me @Hostarius. Just a few thoughts ....

    Have you tried approaching the guys and sounding them out for some feedback? I used to do this at work if something was going wrong with any of my relationships. I sometimes found that a negative reaction from someone actually had little to do with me and I'd been worrying needlessly - they had other issues that were taking up their emotions and attention and it had spilled over a bit. When it was to do with me, just bringing the problem out like that and talking about it made a big difference because we understood each other a lot better then - it didn't always lead to a comfortable relationship but we always ended up knowing what to expect a bit better, and how to avoid problems as far as possible in the future.

    Were you all on the same wavelength about the nature of your discussion? A debate isn't a natural form of conversation if you are meeting in a social context - particularly if you are new acquaintances and still getting to know each other. With new people it's almost possible to be objective - we are going to be both consciously and unconsciously assessing them. In fact that assessing process is actually more important to many of us than the details of what is being said. I for one would be trying to place you, understand who you are, what makes you tick, whether I'll get on with you or not over the years we may be thrown together during our degrees. I'd be using your debating style as an indicator of your character. I very much enjoy that sort of play-fighting discussion myself, I've pissed off not a few people assuming they were ok with it. It's like with any game - cross an invisible line and the red card comes out.

    Are you all getting to grips with a new university environment, a new town and many new people. It's not as bad as being a fresh undergraduate but it still puts a lot of pressure on us and we'll respond in different ways to it. Perhaps your guys were feeling a bit stressed out with all this, and not feeling very objective? For me that environment would be a cue for many more introvert withdrawals than usual, together with a significant feeling of insecurity till I'd found my way around, got clear agreed work objectives, a bit of a routine with my studies, and met some people I was comfortable with socially. You are possibly closer to a supervisor than a student in your level of maturity and this could be a bit disheartening for anyone feeling a bit insecure.

    It's very irritating when people take a perspective as a hard opinion - I have the same problems as you, @wolly.green and @Asa have described. It's particularly bad when I'm further back than I assume you were with the validity of your viewpoint. I think out loud to explore a "possibility space" if you know what I mean - an exploration of ideas that may be not be thought out or even really tenable in themselves but help to shape a broad context potentially containing whole fresh insights. Most people want closure of possibilities in discussions, preferably around a conviction they already hold. They react badly to anything that opens up a whole wide space of alternatives and shakes the foundations of what they believe - I think it must be threatening to them, but it's the very sort of air I like to breath myself. I used to get into trouble in management meetings if I did this too often when everyone else wanted to close down on something.
     
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  18. OP
    Hostarius

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    Hi, John. So just for a bit of an update, I apologised to the guy over text and asked him if he felt uncomfortable.

    It turns out that you and @Puzzlenuzzle were right. It's not so much about comfort, but that he wanted a more relaxed and informal get together, and my 'devil's advocate debate' did not serve that purpose. He said we could talk about it if I wanted to next time.

    I actually felt terrible afterwards, and yes, confused too like I said, and it's lead to all sorts of soul searching to be honest.

    I think for me and some of my close friends, 'talking big' has probably been casualised and informalised to an uncommon degree. Personally I get excited and engaged by it, and I think I expected these people to be the same way.

    Also, it's my default. My mum always said I was 'too heavy' and 'too deep', and friends know that I can be intense. I actually have to feel very comfortable with people before I can be light and relaxed, I think (though this isn't always the case) - which is kind of the opposite to how most people operate socially.

    It sucks and it's not fun sometimes.
     
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  19. Wyote

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    It is really great that you have been able to recognize this! Now you can adapt :)

    I am often the same way my dude
     
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    I feel very close to this in my own way. I had a lot of problems with other kids when I was at primary school and never got on with them. I was cleverer than most of them and used it to establish superiority in my own mind - and for real in specifics. That was a sort of saviour for me because it gave me self worth, and affirmation from adults, but was not really a good way to be. It took me a lot of reflection in later life to see what I was doing and put it under control. Fortunately my infj always held sway even though I can only see that with hindsight.
     
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