INFP: The Truest NF?

[Untitled]

Self-contained Ni. Yes. I can see how that might work. I go into these Ni modes of idea-exploration when feeling is minimal.
What do you base your self-actualization on?

Well I might get an epiphany with my Ni which is impossible to prove in any logical way... like let's say meeting my husband I knew that instant I was going to marry him. He luckily agreed. For me it was plain as day. So I quit school, got a regular job and started saving money right away for tickets etc (we lived very far apart) If I was swayed by my Fe, like is sometimes implied by people, it would surely be when all my closest friends and family and absolute strangers who'd heard of my plan were convinced I had gone insane. They had some very strong feelings about this and it did not definitely escape me one bit, but I had to follow what I believe was right and we're happily married 5 years now. That would be one occasion. I have often been called pigheaded for getting an idea in my head, others just can't get and it usually proves right in time, but doesn't help much then. Sometimes I'm wrong too. ;D ever so rarely...
Self actualization for me is to trust my inner guiding vision and realizations despite the fact 99% people think differently about things. But not in a disruptive way. I'm not going to push my views on anyone. I believe I'm right but I understand there are various different interpretations and people choose to believe what they believe.
I'm not naive.
But I would be considered an idealist by the general populus. I have personal beliefs that would find close resonance in buddhism and christian mysticism.

I just don't understand what you guys mean when you say INFPs are especially idealistic compared to other idealists. What? In a naive way? Is that what's implied? In what way does their idealism specifically come accross?

 

[InvisibleJim]

Wave the angry stick at an INFP and they behave more INTJ than INFJs do.

 

[grt$5vb]

I have to say... I recently opened a message from an ENFJ that ended with "Don't worry, true love always wins in the end!" It was so innocent, it made me smile. So, Fi doesn't have the monopoly on idealism afterall.

 

[grt$5vb]

Wave the angry stick at an INFP and they behave more INTJ than INFJs do.

In what sense? Could you elaborate for a scholar, pretty please?

 

[acd]

I think it's more about the combination of Ne+Fi.

That makes sense to me.

I think those functions basically translate to: I feel x is possible.

 

[Gaze]

Wave the angry stick at an INFP and they behave more INTJ than INFJs do.

 

[acd]

Wave the angry stick at an INFP and they behave more INTJ than INFJs do.

I've been told I can be "clinical" and "cold" in an argument.
I've also been a huge spoiled baby and a flight risk. The possibilities are endless!

 

[Gaze]

I've been told I can be "clinical" and "cold" in an argument.
I've also been a huge spoiled baby and a flight risk. The possibilities are endless!

+1. I used to think I was a T because of the 'cold/rational' aspect of me.

 

[InvisibleJim]

 

[Vilku]

[MENTION=5160]Vilku[/MENTION]

If population is key, then ENF's would represent all NFs. And perhaps since ENFJs are Fe's, they would tend to be less "different" in their environments. So wouldn't ENFP's be the standout stereotypes? or the withdrawn INFP who expresses basically the same thing as ENFPs?

I agree. Ne Te creates a very strong impression... for us, perhaps. Does Fe Se also create an impression? I horse around a lot (Se) in comfortable groups.

i couldnt bother to point out the obvious factors like WHAT STANDS OUT TO PEOPLES EUYESYS! are the infps bviously.
bviously ppl see those who stand out as an anomaly, not them who dont.

ltohu enfps do get more fame, just watch kids shows. whose the main cjharacter, again stereotypical enfp? ... ~_~

yes fe se is very powerful ppl soul gatherer, everymost'll look at us in awe and would follow us to hell if we made them to, but then this requires more factors than merely just being yourself, like ambition to fill your purpose.

no fe se doesnt create impression, it pulls others to us when we repair the world. and only when we have sense of purpose it impresses others, but then theres no another like it. but, thats so rare people wont know nor understandd it unless they themselves have witnessed its affection. thus left in the shadows the most affectionate is.

infp is the official nf stereotype representative. you have to remeber majority are S and infp is the one most into heavens of us, thus the anomaly in their PoV.

also you missed the _if_ point in the by number. as they wouldnt understand us, then no way they can create a stereotype of us. consider N and T more accurately self expressive than f and s wont care for accuraccy that much.

 

[grt$5vb]

Ahem... I care for accuracy above most else.

 

[muir]

Well I might get an epiphany with my Ni which is impossible to prove in any logical way... like let's say meeting my husband I knew that instant I was going to marry him. He luckily agreed. For me it was plain as day. So I quit school, got a regular job and started saving money right away for tickets etc (we lived very far apart) If I was swayed by my Fe, like is sometimes implied by people, it would surely be when all my closest friends and family and absolute strangers who'd heard of my plan were convinced I had gone insane. They had some very strong feelings about this and it did not definitely escape me one bit, but I had to follow what I believe was right and we're happily married 5 years now. That would be one occasion. I have often been called pigheaded for getting an idea in my head, others just can't get and it usually proves right in time, but doesn't help much then. Sometimes I'm wrong too. ;D ever so rarely...
Self actualization for me is to trust my inner guiding vision and realizations despite the fact 99% people think differently about things. But not in a disruptive way. I'm not going to push my views on anyone. I believe I'm right but I understand there are various different interpretations and people choose to believe what they believe.
I'm not naive.
But I would be considered an idealist by the general populus. I have personal beliefs that would find close resonance in buddhism and christian mysticism.

I just don't understand what you guys mean when you say INFPs are especially idealistic compared to other idealists. What? In a naive way? Is that what's implied? In what way does their idealism specifically come accross?

I understand what you're saying

You're right before this branch of this discussion can make any real headway there needs to be a clearer idea of what is meant by 'idealism' as it seems different people have different interpretations.

In a philosophical sense your definition is correct

I also agree with you that INFJ's seem to be often idealistic in the sense you are talking about. We're talking about stuff that's unquantifiable so a discussion over who is more 'idealistic' is a tricky one!

 

[knight in battle]

no fe se doesnt create impression, it pulls others to us when we repair the world. and only when we have sense of purpose it impresses others, but then theres no another like it. but, thats so rare people wont know nor understandd it unless they themselves have witnessed its affection. thus left in the shadows the most affectionate is.

For the first time this century, I disagree:

There was a time when an INFJ saw me silently minding my own business. And when I saw him, I simply lifted my eyebrows in curiosity with ever so slight a smile (Fe). Immediately he chuckled in amusement.

There were times when an INFP friend saw me in my self-satisfied mood (corner-of-mouth smile, eyebrows lifted, mood undiscernibly positive but silent). He fell silent and looked at me like a speechless child. Mouth closed. Eyes looking upward toward me. Stunned. Mystified? Yes. This happened in several instances.

 

[Vilku]

Ahem... I care for accuracy above most else.

and without defining context this has little use. lets just say t is slower cause it demands accuraccy, thus left far behind f in terms of length + data processing and sensing the same against intuition.
you can make what you will out of that.

that for example explains why istj's never learn anything useful from my pov, tangled into skippable details too much. (especially the ones who attack you for anything you say, out of immaturity. like, say, if i eave a certain thought unwritten, an istj reading this is likely to rage at me for not writing it to simplify everyhting onto their level.)

I understand what you're saying

You're right before this branch of this discussion can make any real headway there needs to be a clearer idea of what is meant by 'idealism' as it seems different people have different interpretations.

In a philosophical sense your definition is correct

I also agree with you that INFJ's seem to be often idealistic in the sense you are talking about. We're talking about stuff that's unquantifiable so a discussion over who is more 'idealistic' is a tricky one!

both are just as ideal, only for different functions.
its as if arguing is it better to create ideals for fi/te + ne/si users versus ni/se + fe/ti users.
both kinds of people need ideals which without theyd likely become selfish and etc.

For the first time this century, I disagree:

There was a time when an INFJ saw me silently minding my own business. And when I saw him, I simply lifted my eyebrows in curiosity with ever so slight a smile (Fe). Immediately he chuckled in amusement.

There were times when an INFP friend saw me in my self-satisfied mood (corner-of-mouth smile, eyebrows lifted, mood undiscernibly positive but silent). He fell silent and looked at me like a speechless child. Mouth closed. Eyes looking upward toward me. Stunned. Mystified? Yes. This happened in several instances.

well, unfortunately that doesnt impress most.
thus ne + te makes it obvious enough for even the less capable to get an impression.

although, whenn i feel like saving the world, thats, when all are impressed.
when not so much? i suppose most have never seen unselfish person before and thus mistake slight smile as pride.. *facepalm*

 

[muir]

both are just as ideal, only for different functions.
its as if arguing is it better to create ideals for fi/te + ne/si users versus ni/se + fe/ti users.
both kinds of people need ideals which without theyd likely become selfish and etc.

Ok you are talking about 'idealism' in an ethical sense, where people strive to live by certain values

Even that is a pretty difficult thing to measure.

Invisible Jim posted a picture above with the words 'passive-aggressive' in them which made me think of another thing you would have to factor in to a study.

If you were going to attempt to measure how much a sample group of INFJ's and INFP's were living by their values you would not only have to look at how pro-actively they were doing this but also how passively aggressively they were resisting that which they did not agree with.

Passive aggression has got a bad rap! Or maybe its because people are using the wrong interpretation. Other words i've noticed being used wrong include: 'anarchy', 'socialism', 'communism', 'capitalism'

There's a very real reason why certain words are regularly missused and a very smart man once explained this to us. He was called George Orwell and he explained the method of control used by power elites that involved the use of language.

Anyway i'm starting to digress a little bit!

Concerning 'passive aggression'. Let's say that the government passed a law that made you work 20 hours out of every 24 and gave you strictly only 2 meals a day.

If you weren't always on time, sometimes criticised the system and if you secretly ate anything more than your alloted two meals a day then you would under the DSM categorisation be deemed 'passive aggressive' and then the state would say it was justified in labelling you with some disorder that in turn would justify a treatment which might involve incarceration in a mental hospital or the forced ingestion of certain mind/body dulling drugs.

So this form of categorisation acts as a method of control. It would be like a Roman slave master laying down a list of rules for slaves to abide by and then laying down another list listing behaviours that he percieved as being against his authority which if a slave exhibited he could then be punished for exhibiting.

Its a double prison!

If you physically resist then you are a criminal and locked up. If you passively resist then you are crazy ('passive aggressive') and can be locked up.....ha ha its such a diabolical system!

So anyway in summary, if you are talking about INFJ's and INFP's adherence to their personal value system then you would have to measure not only their proactive pursuit of that but also their passive non compliance with what they didn't agree with because not playing the game is also a way of living in accordance with your values and which strategies people employ at which times can vary depending on what the penalty for it will be.

 

[Untitled]

I understand what you're saying

You're right before this branch of this discussion can make any real headway there needs to be a clearer idea of what is meant by 'idealism' as it seems different people have different interpretations.

In a philosophical sense your definition is correct

I also agree with you that INFJ's seem to be often idealistic in the sense you are talking about. We're talking about stuff that's unquantifiable so a discussion over who is more 'idealistic' is a tricky one!

Yep. That's excatly what I meant! One of my best friends is an ENFJ who uses buddhist methods in her work helping people and believes in enlightenment. She is basically trying to liberate people from hinders more profound than you'd think. It's like a covert enlightenment op... And she's very much interested how people feel. Believes in everyone! That's what I'm guilty of too. I always see what people could do, in their personal life, societally and spiritually and I do chip chip away in my own way to build a utopia, a heaven on earth. Light some sparks in people. I have tremendous belief in individuals. I don't know...

Ahem... I care for accuracy above most else.

I confess to the same. That's why I'm splitting hairs ...and being super anal...

 

[muir]

Yep. That's excatly what I meant! One of my best friends is an ENFJ who uses buddhist methods in her work helping people and believes in enlightenment. She is basically trying to liberate people from hinders more profound than you'd think. It's like a covert enlightenment op... And she's very much interested how people feel. Believes in everyone! That's what I'm guilty of too. I always see what people could do, in their personal life, societally and spiritually and I do chip chip away in my own way to build a utopia, a heaven on earth. Light some sparks in people. I have tremendous belief in individuals. I don't know...

You are both aligned with a certain current....let's call it the 'universal brotherhood'

There are two persistant currents that run through humanity

One current is a drive to control everyone and own everything, let's call this the 'black lodge'

The other current believes in personal freedoms, let's call this the universal brotherhood

These two currents flow through society, but they also flow through us as individuals and we must decide which current we want to align with both within ourselves as we recognise the internal struggle and outwith ourselves as we recognise how these currents are affecting the behaviour of people around us and even world events!

I have belief in individuals as well. I don't hate the black lodge i see them as ignorant and living in fear. The desire to control everything comes from a deep seated insecurity.

Although many of us would like to live in peace we have to unfortunatley react against the controlling current otherwise we find ourselves increasingly controlled (see for example the effect that a centrally controlled banking system is having on our economy right now!)

That is why power must reside with EVERYONE not with a small elite and that means a system change is needed to something like anarchist communism.

This means skipping any intermediate 'dictatorship of the proletariat' phase as that will just see another dictatorship. For example USSR or China, neither of which achieved a state of communism falling foul instead of dictatorship and a centralised market economy (state capitalism)

I was pre-emptively accused in another thread of being about to call some one 'stupid', but i had no intention to do so! I don't use the term 'stupid' however as that implies a state beyond redemption. I use the term 'ignorant' which means that someone is not fully cogniscent.

A person who is not fully cogniscent of the truth can however become cogniscent and thereby dispel the ignorance. Even the black lodge are not beyond redemption in theory but in practise the possibility that they will in large numbers evolve their perceptions to a point whereby they recognise that their power games are destructive is sadly unlikely.

The aim therefore should be for the universal brotherhood to focus their efforts on dispelling the ignorance of the masses so that they can become cogniscent of their condition and can make an informed choice of how they want to engage with this reality.

I'm not interested in ideas about the superiority of a person(s) over another person(s) as that is divisive and a false perception. The reality is that we are all equally valid and should work towards creating an environment that recognises that and recognises the different strengths of each type and provides for everyone accordingly.

It doesn't matter who is the most 'idealistic' between INFJ's and INFP's it only matters that these two groups work togther to create an enviornment in which their strengths are recognised and allowed to blossom for the common good.

Some people might call me idealistic but the reality is that if enough people don't switch to this perception then the trajectory we are all on at the moment with the black lodge steering things is, i think we can all agree, not a good one

 

[InvisibleJim]

INTJs are more idealist than you pretenders!!!!!1eleventyone1!!

Ni - Infj idealism
Fi - infp idealism

Te - follow through

 

[Untitled]

Oh brother...
I propose we settle this the old fashioned way...

All 4 types of idealists and INTJs meet behind the tool shed at dawn and the one who most adamantly declines to fight, discourages other to fight or denounces the fight as inane wins.

 

[Owfin]

Oh brother...
I propose we settle this the old fashioned way...

All 4 types of idealists and INTJs meet behind the tool shed at dawn and the one who most adamantly declines to fight, discourages other to fight or denounces the fight as inane wins.

The ISTJs won of course because they decided this before the thread existed.