First of all, hats off for opening up like that and again it's a very good summation, for real. Kudos.
[INFJ] infjs confuse the hell out of me!
- Thread starter chad
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First of all, hats off for opening up like that and again it's a very good summation, for real. Kudos.
Honestly, I probably shouldn't say anything but I need to get this out so others might not fall into that narc trap
. This is from my own personal experience, and from what I've gathered I wouldn't advice anyone to take down a narc, there honestly is no point, imho. Just leave them be and wish them well.
People need to remember that a narcissists isn't just born a narcissist, they aren't inherently evil and even though a narc has gotten me into a hospital and so kindly provided me with PTSD, he wasn't inherently bad. I simply refuse to think that. Mind you, we were together for years because I'm just stupid like that lol and I wanted to heal him
Bottom line is that there is a narcissist wound that is hard to heal, and all kinds of delusions created around it just to feel like that the wound isn't there. But as soon as you slightly poke at it/challenge that delusion, then they simply will go bonkers. So whatever you do.. do not poke the bubble unless you like fire, then sure, go ahead... poke it, roast it, boil it, whatever floats your boat.
They honestly are just people that are hurting. When they feel less than they are, e.g .experience rejection ..it is really damaging for them and they will do whatever in their power to bring you down and make people hate you. Heck, mine tried to get me fired after we broke up. Now, that was interesting but that was his attempt to pierce back his deluded comfort zone.
The thing is though is that it isn't really personal, but there is room to acknowledge that they're people that are hurting and that's really the end of that. They are people. Also, when x bursts or pokes at that bubble of theirs.. then I'm sorry but x gets the heat because x burst it. Therefore, because x challenged it then their perception of x is what decides if the bubble gets pierced together or not.
Lol, I sound like I got Stockholm syndrome but my point is, that it really isn't personal. Just stay out of their way unless you want to go to some boring narc-off war that has no point whatsoever.
. This is from my own personal experience, and from what I've gathered I wouldn't advice anyone to take down a narc, there honestly is no point, imho. Just leave them be and wish them well.People need to remember that a narcissists isn't just born a narcissist, they aren't inherently evil and even though a narc has gotten me into a hospital and so kindly provided me with PTSD
, he wasn't inherently bad. I simply refuse to think that. Mind you, we were together for years because I'm just stupid like that lol and I wanted to heal himBottom line is that there is a narcissist wound that is hard to heal, and all kinds of delusions created around it just to feel like that the wound isn't there. But as soon as you slightly poke at it/challenge that delusion, then they simply will go bonkers. So whatever you do.. do not poke the bubble
unless you like fire, then sure, go ahead... poke it, roast it, boil it, whatever floats your boat.They honestly are just people that are hurting. When they feel less than they are, e.g .experience rejection ..it is really damaging for them and they will do whatever in their power to bring you down and make people hate you. Heck, mine tried to get me fired after we broke up. Now, that was interesting but that was his attempt to pierce back his deluded comfort zone.
The thing is though is that it isn't really personal, but there is room to acknowledge that they're people that are hurting and that's really the end of that. They are people. Also, when x bursts or pokes at that bubble of theirs.. then I'm sorry but x gets the heat because x burst it. Therefore, because x challenged it then their perception of x is what decides if the bubble gets pierced together or not.
Lol, I sound like I got Stockholm syndrome but my point is, that it really isn't personal. Just stay out of their way unless you want to go to some boring narc-off war that has no point whatsoever.
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folding paper cranes ⭐
Lol, I sound like I got Stockholm syndrome but my point is, that it really isn't personal. Just stay out of their way unless you want to go to some boring narc-off war that has no point whatsoever.
..hmh, sounds very open-eyed, strong, humane and brave truth-telling to me.
(I'm honestly simply referring to the Stockholm part.)
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@Puzzlenuzzle i get your point but I think in many cases, circumstance is relative. I agree that narcs simply can't help themselves in many ways and that their tendencies do come from a place of pain. I recognize that. This is why as much as I am able to, I leave them be. The funny thing with narcs and INFJs is that they tend to gravitate to our warmth and weird evil such that when I am distancing my self and establishing gravity, they consider it rejection and they tend to lash out nonetheless. To me however it's just self protection. Ironic how not caring for them is in fact bursting their bubble.
My traumatic experience however was with someone with serious NPD. While i recognized it from the beginning, i was charmed nonetheless because I thought it was being noble. It was not. It was all an ego inflation program. The thing was that I was not the only person being abused but nearly everyone around this narc. Several of these people are very dear to me and when I was watching them slowly disintegrating because of the narc, I knew I had to do something. In the end, we all got out of the narc's spectrum and now there are new victims in the orbit. Funny thing is they are once again experiencing the same abuse as we did. It was a painful thing to go through but at the very least I take pride in helping each other gain perspective. I have however learned for good that it will always be best to establish distance with these people. Never let them close enough in the first place. Usually, when one is gravitating so strongly to an INFJ, there is something innately wrong with them and thus I will take serious precautions from now on. I am content with my inner circle, and this forum.
My traumatic experience however was with someone with serious NPD. While i recognized it from the beginning, i was charmed nonetheless because I thought it was being noble. It was not. It was all an ego inflation program. The thing was that I was not the only person being abused but nearly everyone around this narc. Several of these people are very dear to me and when I was watching them slowly disintegrating because of the narc, I knew I had to do something. In the end, we all got out of the narc's spectrum and now there are new victims in the orbit. Funny thing is they are once again experiencing the same abuse as we did. It was a painful thing to go through but at the very least I take pride in helping each other gain perspective. I have however learned for good that it will always be best to establish distance with these people. Never let them close enough in the first place. Usually, when one is gravitating so strongly to an INFJ, there is something innately wrong with them and thus I will take serious precautions from now on. I am content with my inner circle, and this forum.
I'm sorry if I came across like I was invalidating it
. Of course its very subjective but my intention was more to establish a warning as I would honestly have loved to have a warning myself I agree with a lot of what you say, actually scratch that. I agree with all and I understand you.
They absolutely do lash out when you are distancing yourself and perhaps trying to create boundaries, and even gaslight you into thinking that there is something wrong with you for needed boundaries. Still, we are attracted to each other like moths to flame
Ohhh that ego inflation program is serious business, unbelievably charming nonetheless. However, I do understand why you felt like you had to try to put it to an end as it happens really slowly. Often people might not even know what hit them due to manipulation and gaslight. That's what gaslight does. It seriously messed with perception, and is a total mind-eff. So, I get what you meant now but I'm pretty impressed that you were able to spot it then.
I'm really happy though that you did successfully manage to take them out of harms way but then of course there will always be new victims still, you did it and you were successful. (which I think is pretty rare so I consider this some kind of miracle).
Ps. My perspective was more 1 on 1 kind of situation as they can go horribly out of hand, you just sit there in awe and watch the games, brutality and wonder how it's even happening or what's happening whilst at times having no idea what the right course of action is.
Actually, it makes my blood boil now when I feel that I'm or someone else is being gaslighted. It infuriates me as exactly that over time took away my perception of my own feelings. I don't even know how to accurately describe it.. But yes, pretty much that.
@Puzzlenuzzle Oh! Don't worry about it. I didn't feel invalidated at all. If anything, I feel as though I could completely relate to what you have been through. I accept the way you pointed out that being a narc is not a categorical evil. I actually also understand this. once the healing commences, it is much easier to view them and with more nuance. it is somewhat freeing to be emphatic towards them. It's hard to explain. Haha. Oh I hope you are doing well. The good thing about this is that we are growing.
OK good, I wanted to be sure as my intention wasn't to invalidate it as these experienced are really close to heart for everyone, I'm certain@Puzzlenuzzle Oh! Don't worry about it. I didn't feel invalidated at all. If anything, I feel as though I could completely relate to what you have been through. I accept the way you pointed out that being a narc is not a categorical evil. I actually also understand this. once the healing commences, it is much easier to view them and with more nuance. it is somewhat freeing to be emphatic towards them. It's hard to explain. Haha. Oh I hope you are doing well. The good thing about this is that we are growing.
it for sure is freeing to be able to view them with a broader perspective,compassion and understanding as it helps to e g. not take things personally. At least, there is a lot of strength that can be drawn from really being empathetic towards them. Thank you! And I hope you're doing well too. Nothing of this is easy but like you said, we are growing
I'm sure something beautiful can come out of this if it already hasn't.
You cutie
I guess I don't have Stockholm syndrome then, thank you. I got a bit worried after I typed it up lol
Impact Character
folding paper cranes ⭐
You cutie
@Puzzlenuzzle Oh! Don't worry about it. I didn't feel invalidated at all. If anything, I feel as though I could completely relate to what you have been through. I accept the way you pointed out that being a narc is not a categorical evil. I actually also understand this. once the healing commences, it is much easier to view them and with more nuance. it is somewhat freeing to be emphatic towards them. It's hard to explain. Haha. Oh I hope you are doing well. The good thing about this is that we are growing.
@MINFJToothFairy you worded the healing aspect in here perfectly. <3
So I was still stuck with what I've written down here. Especially after I've read all your stories. It's not my place to say what or what not to do on such topics.
Yet here I did it again.
I do however stand by my point with handling a narc. From all what I’ve read on and about it (the whole disorder spectrum), it remains a psychological disorder which needs to be resolved through psychological therapy. It is and stays something only professionals can properly handle without getting hurt by the lashing they can do to you. I’m not going to say anymore that you’re mentally not equipped for that, having read through your posts. But taking down or converting someone who has this disorder puts you in their playing field; and that remains in my opinion a dangerous thing to do. Especially as they know how to handle / manipulate on someone’s emotions.
I understand the point of view of a Narc’s as having a broken ego, low self-esteem, shame and deflecting that negatively to the outside. Not that I am one (I’ve checked over and over on that topic), but I still do have a darker egocentric side in me that resonates with it (pride, self-centeredness, ego). I personally hate that side, but it is what it is and it remains a WIP to work on. I had/have my share with Narc’s as well, I'm not afraid interacting with them as I can shield them off but the ground rule that I’ve taken on to me is always to be careful in regards to opening myself to them.
Anyway, again, hats off to everyone here given their experience / take on it, it's not a fun topic to talk about and having read/reread through it I think you've stood strong through it. Sorry for posting on this thread again.
Agreed. In fact victims should be walking warnings. None of us came out unscathed. I for one went into a major episode of depression. It's tragic but there's no other way but forward. @dragulagu
It's okay. Please keep posting. I like this forum because there are a lot of intelligent posters. I learn a lot from all of you.
It's okay. Please keep posting. I like this forum because there are a lot of intelligent posters. I learn a lot from all of you.
Just a couple of thoughts that occurred to me as I read your post just now - they are generalisations and I’m on my iPhone so they may be tangential to the recent comments. I think that many INFJs need to be needed and find their identities at least partially that way. In fact we can become dependent on someone else’s neediness to the point where it can feel threatening if they begin to not need us if this is a long standing relationship - we can become invested in their problems. This I know from personal experience and it seems to echo in other INFJs. The other thought is that I can flip from Fe led Ni to Ti in a microsecond. I don’t find it easy to express Ti via Fe, at least in face to face conversations. That may very well seem like weird flips between caring responses and cold analysis.
I'm sorry to read about your experience, it sucks. Indeed, the way is forward. And appreciated, there are indeed a lot of intelligent posters in this forum, I'm learning a lot from them as well.
I understand these might sound like generalisations as my statements also come from what I've read on the disorders, but it also comes from personal experience and introspection. It is still something I personally disagree on. There are variations in the spectrum of these disorders, sure, but it's just too dangerous in my eyes to just go head to head against someone who has it without knowing how far that person is in that disorder spectrum. The repercussions can go far. And the neediness/investment in my eyes is not healthy in a relationship with a narc, at least not from a relationship point of view. This is my personal opinion.
Anyway, you as INFJ will know better on this topic than me as a non-INFJ. So I won't go further in this.
On the Ti / Fe flips...they are still strange to me. I can't personally just flip my NiTe to Fi. So to me it's just bizarre to see an INFJ immediately switch from an emotional side to a cold analytical side. I don't know how to react to that when I see/experience when I observe it. (from the family side of view, I rarely saw this, but I assume you do this towards anyone that is not close enough to you?).
Oh I was generalising from personal experience too, and I agree very much with your note of caution. These are a bit of a ramble around my thoughts - there's probably stuff here that everyone knows, but it gives some context ......
It seems to be an INFJ thing to empathise with people by bringing them inside using Ni to echo them, faults and all, and so try and help them. I was generalising in the sense that this concern is by no means restricted to narcissistic people, though of course they are drawn to INFJs like wasps to an open honey pot. It's quite dangerous for the INFJ for several reasons inho. One is the risk that they simply echo the other's problems till they become their own problems too. That can happen if the other suffers from deep anxiety, depression, low self-worth - problems that many INFJs have themselves to some extent which is why they sympathise with them so readily – and where my own experiences are rooted. A problem for some INFJs is that they have ill-defined ego boundaries and can lose their sense of personal identity which can become contaminated badly by the other to the point where they lose a grip on who they are. In fact, rather than compromising their inner world ever more deeply, most likely is that INFJs run out of the compassion and emotional energy needed to keep up the empathy for someone who is significantly troubled. This compassion fatigue can take us by surprise – it’s probably a special case of the stress curve with its sudden abrupt performance precipice, and it’s legacy of anger, depression etc. What is even more surprising to us is that it isn’t easy to replace our ‘stock’ of compassion - it can be the emotional equivalent of permanently weakening our back by over-exertion. This can result in sudden changes in INFJ attitude to someone in the outer world, though the problem will have been developing internally for quite a while beforehand. These are extremely difficult issues for us to deal with, because we will have invested a lot of energy in the internalisation of the other – a feature of all our close relationships I think, not just the pathological ones – so we will have made a deep commitment to the other - who themselves may be very dependent on us. The result can be pretty awful both for the INFJ and the person they are trying to love and help, and leave them both traumatised, or at least with significant new emotional problems
My own view is that compassion is not just an instinct – there’s a skill that needs to be learnt too. The way we should learn it is probably the same way we learn to walk, with guidance, with trial and error, and some tumbles and bruises, and it’s best done in late childhood, adolescence and early adulthood. We need to have a clear sight of our inner boundaries, beyond which we do not allow the other to penetrate – after all, we don’t willingly let others stab us or poke us in the eye and we are always damaged by these physical invasions when they do happen, unless they are part of a medical procedure. The mental invasions are as bad, but much less tangible, so we have to learn the hard way where our boundaries are. I was in my 40s before I really appreciated this, and still have some problems with it now 25 years later lol.
The flip from Ni/Fe to Ni/Ti is interesting. Ni is our dominant, not Fe, and we do have to withdraw into it to access it. If we do that in company, it can look a bit like this to others metaphorically. Quite a way away from Fe if it becomes visible to others. But as an INTJ, you must experience something a little similar to this.
Where we are very different from INTJs is that many INFJs, particularly those who have a reasonable amount of Enneagram 5 in us, are pretty good with Ti – you can see that here in the Forum. Because it’s inward facing, I find I can spend all day long journeying around my Ni with my Ti, - in fact I can’t easily access my Ni in ‘humanspeak’ without a lot of Ti to navigate it and translate it into words. It’s cosy too because I don’t need to do any uncomfortable extraverting to evaluate my perceptions. It can float off into unreality though without an extraverted viewpoint to break the loop. What will certainly move me quickly from Fe to Ti in company is if the discussion is complex and I need to dig into my Ni to get at my perceptions. My Ni is like a wide landscape and can’t directly be expressed verbally and linearly so I need Ti to navigate it before I can express it. If I’m dealing with a logical rather than a value-based topic, my Fe isn’t much use, and I’ll respond from the thinking side of things. This post is an example of my use of Ni and Ti together. I have a core intuitive feel for what compassion looks like to me as INFJ, but it isn’t expressed in words within me – I need Ti to linearize and verbalise it for communication. Of course, I’m talking about it here – I’d use Fe if I was actually using it in company. Mind you, these words don’t give a brilliant translation of my Ni perception because compassion isn’t really a separate differentiated faculty within me but merges into all my other faculties.
I might well flip to intuitive / analytic even with those close to me, but I'm more likely to bury them in over-analysis and unwanted solutions than appear cold. I must say, there are times that I get fed up with Fe, and it's a real treat to just use Ti instead. But then just as often, I get really fed up with Ti that doesn't know when to shut up (at 3am for instance!!), and it's a blessed relief to use Fe. I do far better in company with Fe than T, unless I'm with people that have a particular purpose that needs it.
Interestingly, I do experience analogous jumps in INTJ behaviour. Some INTJs I’ve known can become very values-oriented where a moment before they were expressing things pretty clinically. Just as INFJs can over-think in public (who me ???), some INTJs can suddenly become very righteous. I had a boss like that many years ago.
No rush dragulagu - hope I've not over-thought it
. It wouldn't be the first time in my life.
This is accurate, to the T. I almost have nothing to add except I just want to express strongly agreeing.
For what it's worth, it helps to remind myself that these white knight tendencies are false. One of those random internet quotes I agree with completely is if we can chide ourselves like our own children, what would we say?
The separation process with someone who needs us can be decapitating. In fact, I have found that I need to be needed. Sometimes however, these needs tend to get complicated. Experience has taught me that pain is a good indicator for reevaluation. If it hurts, something is off. I learned to treat myself as a third person and I try to look at the situation as factually as possible and then I factor in my pain and make decisions based on what needs to be done to address it. Often it involves distancing which can get traumatic to other party once executed.
At this point, I begin to assume a mother's hat except I too am her child. It helps to envision the support of everyone who loves me and of what they would give to me if they could fix the situation itself. At this point, I am able to recognize when and how to put myself first. I am of no use anyway when I am just as broken and so I need to get fixed soonest. I remind myself that putting myself first is akin to instructions on what to do when a plane crashes: put your own oxygen masks and life vests first before you assist others. For as long as I am in no position to assist others, I will keep my distance.
The irony is that what always breaks my heart is seeing them break because of it, which is why distance is necessary so I don't have to see it.
As it is, we should take comfort in time. It allows for everything to pass. I see this as a gift of kindness from the universe.
Oh I was generalising from personal experience too, and I agree very much with your note of caution. These are a bit of a ramble around my thoughts - there's probably stuff here that everyone knows, but it gives some context ......
It seems to be an INFJ thing to empathise with people by bringing them inside using Ni to echo them, faults and all, and so try and help them. I was generalising in the sense that this concern is by no means restricted to narcissistic people, though of course they are drawn to INFJs like wasps to an open honey pot. It's quite dangerous for the INFJ for several reasons inho. One is the risk that they simply echo the other's problems till they become their own problems too. That can happen if the other suffers from deep anxiety, depression, low self-worth - problems that many INFJs have themselves to some extent which is why they sympathise with them so readily – and where my own experiences are rooted. A problem for some INFJs is that they have ill-defined ego boundaries and can lose their sense of personal identity which can become contaminated badly by the other to the point where they lose a grip on who they are. In fact, rather than compromising their inner world ever more deeply, most likely is that INFJs run out of the compassion and emotional energy needed to keep up the empathy for someone who is significantly troubled. This compassion fatigue can take us by surprise – it’s probably a special case of the stress curve with its sudden abrupt performance precipice, and it’s legacy of anger, depression etc. What is even more surprising to us is that it isn’t easy to replace our ‘stock’ of compassion - it can be the emotional equivalent of permanently weakening our back by over-exertion. This can result in sudden changes in INFJ attitude to someone in the outer world, though the problem will have been developing internally for quite a while beforehand. These are extremely difficult issues for us to deal with, because we will have invested a lot of energy in the internalisation of the other – a feature of all our close relationships I think, not just the pathological ones – so we will have made a deep commitment to the other - who themselves may be very dependent on us. The result can be pretty awful both for the INFJ and the person they are trying to love and help, and leave them both traumatised, or at least with significant new emotional problems
My own view is that compassion is not just an instinct – there’s a skill that needs to be learnt too. The way we should learn it is probably the same way we learn to walk, with guidance, with trial and error, and some tumbles and bruises, and it’s best done in late childhood, adolescence and early adulthood. We need to have a clear sight of our inner boundaries, beyond which we do not allow the other to penetrate – after all, we don’t willingly let others stab us or poke us in the eye and we are always damaged by these physical invasions when they do happen, unless they are part of a medical procedure. The mental invasions are as bad, but much less tangible, so we have to learn the hard way where our boundaries are. I was in my 40s before I really appreciated this, and still have some problems with it now 25 years later lol.
The flip from Ni/Fe to Ni/Ti is interesting. Ni is our dominant, not Fe, and we do have to withdraw into it to access it. If we do that in company, it can look a bit like this to others metaphorically. Quite a way away from Fe if it becomes visible to others. But as an INTJ, you must experience something a little similar to this.
Where we are very different from INTJs is that many INFJs, particularly those who have a reasonable amount of Enneagram 5 in us, are pretty good with Ti – you can see that here in the Forum. Because it’s inward facing, I find I can spend all day long journeying around my Ni with my Ti, - in fact I can’t easily access my Ni in ‘humanspeak’ without a lot of Ti to navigate it and translate it into words. It’s cosy too because I don’t need to do any uncomfortable extraverting to evaluate my perceptions. It can float off into unreality though without an extraverted viewpoint to break the loop. What will certainly move me quickly from Fe to Ti in company is if the discussion is complex and I need to dig into my Ni to get at my perceptions. My Ni is like a wide landscape and can’t directly be expressed verbally and linearly so I need Ti to navigate it before I can express it. If I’m dealing with a logical rather than a value-based topic, my Fe isn’t much use, and I’ll respond from the thinking side of things. This post is an example of my use of Ni and Ti together. I have a core intuitive feel for what compassion looks like to me as INFJ, but it isn’t expressed in words within me – I need Ti to linearize and verbalise it for communication. Of course, I’m talking about it here – I’d use Fe if I was actually using it in company. Mind you, these words don’t give a brilliant translation of my Ni perception because compassion isn’t really a separate differentiated faculty within me but merges into all my other faculties.
I might well flip to intuitive / analytic even with those close to me, but I'm more likely to bury them in over-analysis and unwanted solutions than appear cold. I must say, there are times that I get fed up with Fe, and it's a real treat to just use Ti instead. But then just as often, I get really fed up with Ti that doesn't know when to shut up (at 3am for instance!!), and it's a blessed relief to use Fe. I do far better in company with Fe than T, unless I'm with people that have a particular purpose that needs it.
Interestingly, I do experience analogous jumps in INTJ behaviour. Some INTJs I’ve known can become very values-oriented where a moment before they were expressing things pretty clinically. Just as INFJs can over-think in public (who me ???), some INTJs can suddenly become very righteous. I had a boss like that many years ago.
Ok, I've read through it. The first part I'm not going to fill anything on, it seems complete to me as an outsider. I just feel a bit sad reading how much you invest into this world, it doesn't deserve your devotion. And on boundaries: yes. On the learning path: I understand.
But as an INTJ, you must experience something a little similar to this.
Indeed.
On the Fe/Ti flip, the thing is that you do the same process as INTP's do with the Ti. But from the INTP's I'm used to it seeing them do this "shut off"-mode when they sort through their Ti to go through all the theoretical mumbo jumbo coming on to them. But with the INFJ's I know, I'm used to more emotional reactions from them, so I expect an emotional response. Instead I sometimes see them go full blank/neutral or in full observation mode, and that's when I start to become confused. I tend to ask/evaluate myself on that moment what I did wrong or how I responded rather to what I've said/responded. That's what I mean with I don't know how to react to it.
The analogy with INTJ on a value-oriented approach is correct. INTJ's have a very strong inner meaning / core principles to hold themselves together, as INFP's do. So if someone is threading on these principles, they can become very reactive to it. I've learned to bite my tongue on these moments (especially at work), but it's still a hard thing to do as this is where our inner feelings are tuned in to, it's also our weakest point. These principles can be righteous, can be vindictive, can even be chaotic, but they are steadfast due to the amount of time put in them.
This is a wonderful insight @MINFJToothFairy. Of course we use the Forum to express our hopes and fears and pain - and this is something I wish I'd found a long time ago. My wife suffers from a very severe somatic anxiety disorder, and I nearly crucified myself internalising it. A long time ago now, I realised I'd help no-one if I went under myself and had to back off rather assertively in the middle of a crisis. It felt like a betrayal both to her and to me, but I realised if I didn't take care of myself there would be a disaster for both of us and for our children, who were young at the time. Well here we are in our 70th year, after 46 years of marriage and 51 years of knowing each other - so it did work ... at least so far
. I'd say this though from the top of the biggest mountain in the world - the INFJ instinct to help is a gift from God. There is nothing, nothing in life that can touch it - it brings its own incredible rewards. We just need to learn that we are finite, and love ourselves as much as the other - we cannot love others unless we love and take care of ourselves.