INFJs and "Conforming to Society"

[La Sagna]

I also dislike labelling because it is a form of judging other people and oversimplifies what it is to be human.

I do what I feel is right for my conscience. Quite often it will match up to expectations in society but sometimes it doesn't. I probably have seemed like a conformist to a lot of people but I'm not. I do believe in the 'greater good' though, which can lead to conforming by doing what is best for the group. Rebelliousness is most often time a selfish way of being (not always).

 

[NataljaC]

Robert Frost

The Road Not Taken​

...Two roads diverged in a wood, and I –
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.​

Now THAT is rebellion. I simply choose the path that is relevant at the time.

 

[rachelbaker99]

I'm just always true to myself. I take advantage of all the resources around me, but I never desire things I know I can't have. I can't change my ideals or my style just to be like somebody else, and I have no desire to do so.

 

[bamf]

Now THAT is rebellion. I simply choose the path that is relevant at the time.

The poem is actually not about rebellion at all. The speaker states that they came to two paths that are of equal wear and simply decided on one, much the way we do in life, but in reflection has given it the description of "less-traveled" and how it's made all the difference, which is doing two things. One, it's a comment on how we reflectively prescribe importance to unimportance decisions of our past, but also how the ebb and flow of life is constantly redefining our future. However, I digress.

I don't really pay much attention to whether or not I'm conforming to society. In all honesty, I'm pretty oblivious to my conformity and my non-conformity. I do what I think is right for me, and try to help as many people along the way as possible. Once I learned to stop caring about being different and unique (just like every young-budding anarchist) and just accepted that we all are in some way (and even then, it doesn't matter), my life became a whole hell of a lot happier.

 

[muir]

The poem is actually not about rebellion at all. The speaker states that they came to two paths that are of equal wear and simply decided on one, much the way we do in life, but in reflection has given it the description of "less-traveled" and how it's made all the difference, which is doing two things. One, it's a comment on how we reflectively prescribe importance to unimportance decisions of our past, but also how the ebb and flow of life is constantly redefining our future. However, I digress.

I don't really pay much attention to whether or not I'm conforming to society. In all honesty, I'm pretty oblivious to my conformity and my non-conformity. I do what I think is right for me, and try to help as many people along the way as possible. Once I learned to stop caring about being different and unique (just like every young-budding anarchist) and just accepted that we all are in some way (and even then, it doesn't matter), my life became a whole hell of a lot happier.

Yeah and I'd add to what you've said about the poem that the author 'sighs' when reflecting on their choice which plants a seed of doubt in the readers mind that the decision might not have been the right one necessarily

He doesn't say...he just says it made a difference...it's ambiguous

I posted it as a thinking/talking point but i put my answer to the conformity question after the poem which is that if i agree with what people are doing i'll go along with it. If i disagree with what they are doing, i'll go my own way

 

[just me]

I swim against the current, but get more fish.
I push against the wind, but refuse to be blown around here and there.
I move against the grain, but new shapes take place in the rough terrain.

copied "Shakespeare first wrote the phrase down in his 1608 play Coriolanus. In it, the character of Sicinius, speaking with Brutus, says "Say, you chose him; More after our commandment than as guided; By your own true affections, and that your minds,; Preoccupied with what you rather must do; Than what you should, made you against the grain; To voice him consul: lay the fault on us."

Shakespeare noted a difference between what one must do, and what one should do, in the minds of some. I am guilty.

 

[muir]

''Man is the only animal that laughs and weeps because man is the only animal that recognises the difference between how things are and how they ought to be''- William Hazlett

 

[sassafras]

many INFJs are known to have a history of unconformity. Others don't.
As for despising labels, I doubt so. That's more a Fi think. ENFPs and INFPs have the thing with labels, they don't like boxes.

It's not that we don't like boxes. We're like cats. We'll crawl into a box (and even fight to squeeze into one) if they interest us, but god help you if you tell us which box to sit in or try to get us to commit to the one we chose.

Interestingly enough, I've never rebelled or spent much time thinking about how I wanted to be different than anyone else. At least, in a way that I'm aware of. Despite being ENFP, I didn't even do the 'trying on different hats' thing. I rarely spend time thinking of myself in relation to society or what society was telling me to do or think. I had a meta-awareness of how the systems worked, but I wouldn't engage even though I disapproved of it. I was way too off in my own ditzy little ADD-esque existence to stand up and try to differentiate myself as a 'rebel.' I've always seen myself as being too many different things at once.

I admit, though, I am curious what the mechanism for presenting oneself as a rebel is. The Hipster Movement, for example. (How do you drown a hipster? In the main stream). So much of our society right now seems underscore the need to think outside of the box, to be yourself, ... and it's in vogue to be an 'original' (just like everyone else) and join protest movements and fight the power... yet, just as it promotes social dissent, society then turns around to punish those who stand up for themselves, who rebel and challenge the establishment and brand them as idiots, deviants or worse, conspiracy theorists.

We're very schizophrenic in our approach to nonconformity.

 

[NataljaC]

...we reflectively prescribe importance to unimportance decisions of our past, but also how the ebb and flow of life is constantly redefining our future...

...the decision might not have been the right one necessarily...

...it's ambiguous

Thank you for this. It's something I've never consciously acknowledged before. And [MENTION=1871]muir[/MENTION], it's hard when we have no reference points to differentiate.

...Once I learned to stop caring about being different and unique (just like every young-budding anarchist)...my life became a whole hell of a lot happier.

I just hope you were not alluding to me. I don't rebel because I think it's "cool," or simply for the sake of treading against the current. I take either side, or my own side- depending on which is relevant to my conscience. Maybe I don't care about conformity or non-conformity, but I am aware whether I am or not.

I swim against the current, but get more fish.
I push against the wind, but refuse to be blown around here and there.
I move against the grain, but new shapes take place in the rough terrain.

...In it, the character of Sicinius, speaking with Brutus, says "Say, you chose him; More after our commandment than as guided; By your own true affections, and that your minds,; Preoccupied with what you rather must do; Than what you should, made you against the grain; To voice him consul: lay the fault on us."

Shakespeare noted a difference between what one must do, and what one should do, in the minds of some. I am guilty.

''Man is the only animal that laughs and weeps because man is the only animal that recognises the difference between how things are and how they ought to be''- William Hazlett

It's ironic how we sometimes willingly put ourselves in situations where we will have no other choice...

It's not that we don't like boxes. We're like cats. We'll crawl into a box (and even fight to squeeze into one) if they interest us, but god help you if you tell us which box to sit in or try to get us to commit to the one we chose.

but yet, we don't like being stuck. To us, options are precious. And so is the freedom to do as we please, without the definite approval or disapproval of others.

...I've always seen myself as being too many different things at once...

Not belonging anywhere is probably why we're all here in the first place...sigh.

 

[Matt3737]

The moment you decide you understand what constitutes 'non-conformity' is the moment that you've conformed it to some standardized definition.

By inverse, the moment you've classified a dynamically malleable pattern of behavior as 'conformist' is the moment that you've relegated yourself to ignorance.

"No one ever steps in the same river twice."
- Heraclitus

I wanted to include a video of the Goths from South Park being satirized for being 'non-conformists,' yet obsessive over the minutiae of defining the differences between social groups/labels and what it means to 'conform' to being a Goth or being 'non-conformist,' but I didn't find any good ones on youtube.

 

[NataljaC]

The moment you decide you understand what constitutes 'non-conformity' is the moment that you've conformed it to some standardized definition.

By inverse, the moment you've classified a dynamically malleable pattern of behavior as 'conformist' is the moment that you've relegated yourself to ignorance.

I'm aware of that. And also of the limitations of the forms of communication available to us. No definition is liberated from the imperfect brainchild of humanity.

 

[just me]

[MENTION=11638]NataljaC[/MENTION] : You said, "Not belonging anywhere is probably why we're all here in the first place...sigh. "

I was asked two days ago, How is your life? On a phone, I could just imagine talking for a long time or not saying anything at all about how I am really doing. I often feel the same about belonging somewhere.
Yes, we often place ourselves where we will have no other choice. Can we belong and not fit in? Can we try to fit in and not belong? Where do we belong?

 

[NataljaC]

Yes, we often place ourselves where we will have no other choice. Can we belong and not fit in? Can we try to fit in and not belong? Where do we belong?

That's interesting. In my opinion, I think both are possible. But ultimately, where we belong is up to us, and no one else. But this can only be truly determined if we are completely honest with ourselves. "Fake it till you make it" will get you nowhere.

 

[LucyJr]

''Man is the only animal that laughs and weeps because man is the only animal that recognises the difference between how things are and how they ought to be''- William Hazlett

This quote has at least one huge philosophical fixation in it...what is it that which "should be"?

 

[dudemanbro]

Well, I wrote a long, long ramble here this morning. It is nearing bedtime now and I'm just...

\o/

I let out a exaggerated and lingering yawn.

...rather tired now, but I'll uh . . . I'll get back to you on that!

 

[NataljaC]

This quote has at least one huge philosophical fixation in it...what is it that which "should be"?

Guess that is up for you to decide. It could be dependent on your belief/aversion to religion, science, or your own personal ethics

 

[LucyJr]

Guess that is up for you to decide. It could be dependent on your belief/aversion to religion, science, or your own personal ethics

Yep, that is false.

 

[NataljaC]

Yep, that is false.

We all have different perspectives. Even if all came to a consensus, we still wouldn't reach the ultimate truth. An individualist approach would be just as good/faulty as a universally accepted one.

 

[just me]

[MENTION=11638]NataljaC[/MENTION] , "Fake it until you make it" in what perspective? I know the general discussion, but why did you say that, if I may?

We choose who we help. If someone else chooses them for us, we choose whether to help them or not. Lot of people choose to love someone.........and to help them. If this doesn't work out and we cannot help them, have we lost anything but say time. If time, maybe most of a lifetime in some instances? If they love us for who and what we are, we feel we belong and stay even if the flame goes out. What if they start complaining about things they never complained about? Faking it?

 

[La Sagna]

[MENTION=11638]NataljaC[/MENTION] : You said, "Not belonging anywhere is probably why we're all here in the first place...sigh. "

I was asked two days ago, How is your life? On a phone, I could just imagine talking for a long time or not saying anything at all about how I am really doing. I often feel the same about belonging somewhere.
Yes, we often place ourselves where we will have no other choice. Can we belong and not fit in? Can we try to fit in and not belong? Where do we belong?

I have experienced belonging without fitting in. That was ok. It was better than the feeling of not belonging anywhere that I feel now. Although there is freedom in that, it still only leads me to a place of searching for belonging. In reality we should find belonging within ourselves and not look for it outside. I'm working on trying to do that.

[MENTION]NataljaC [/MENTION] Faking it until you make it does work in certain contexts. It can be a useful tool to propel you to a different level but it won't keep you there unless the next level is where you actually want to be. Sometimes you don't know if it is until you get there.