infj/entp issues

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Ixsportu2er

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I've been dating an inch for a few months now, and we've always avoided religious talks, the first one we had was within the first two months of our relationship and we fought. We got over it and I just tender to avoid it and I think she did as well.

Lately, the topic has returned and its been the source of recent conflict. The issue is that like most entps(an assumption) were pretty unreligious and she's a Christian. Now, with that said, one of the biggest attractions I had towards her, which is quite a long list, is that she's exceptionally talented at logic/reason for an feeler and a woman (not trying to be sexist).
I'm a cold heartless bastard and she makes me feel in ways that I never have, but she's not an irrational twat that most feelers tend to be. She can love me like a feeler and then keep up with me intellectually, and that's a precious feature that is priceless. She's the only person who can make me cry, and make me care... about anything.

But she was raised as a Christian and her parents are pretty much omish and she has a lot of sensing-judging values that trap her mind and she spends a great deal of time and energy keeping the peace by living a lifestyle that I think isn't her. And I don't even think she realizes the extent to which she's enslaved.

In any case, its hard for me to respect the Christian faith for many reasons, but I am normally tolerant of their beliefs but I've been heavily thinking about our future and I love her very much, but I don't know how raising kids and being married is going to work. I don't want to teach my kids religion, I want to teach them reason, and if that leads to religion (which I don't see) then so be it. But what scares me is that she will undermine me or her parents will and I don't think I could handle that. I really want to raise kids and make then as adventurous and brilliant as I am, I want to share my amazing world with them and I know that religion is poisonous.

Thoughts?
 
you are in troubled waters for sure my friend. . Amish (if that is what she practices) beliefs run deep. . it is a lifestye as well as a belief system. .
 
How can she be a "feeler" and a T type at the same time? Has she tested as an ENFP or ENTP, or did you just come to that conclusion yourself?

How many months have you been dating her for? You are so set on getting married and having children with someone you've dated just a few months?

There's really no way around religious issues if both people aren't willing to budge. You can't get married with her and I recommend just being friends, and making this change sooner rather than later before feelings run too deep.

There are a lot of intelligent women in the world. You'll find many that are on par with her if you keep your eyes open. It seems to me that you value her intellectual abilities more than you value and want to support her as a person.
 
he's devaluing her on a message forum. One day he'll do it to her face. I hope this woman breaks up with him if he doesn't do it. She needs to ruuuuuuuuuuuuun!

typical new atheist Dawkins/Hitchens babble about enslavement...the label is so pathetic these days that if I run into an atheist/anti-theist and they are under 40 and use language like that...I can safely assume they are a dumb.

The OP needs to find someone more his speed then, instead of sit around not respecting her, seriously.
 
I think the majority of you miss understand. First. I wasn't saying she was both a feeler and a thinker only that unlike a lot of feeler types, infjs have a huge capacity for Ti use.

Also, I'm replying on a phone, so grammar issues are related to that.

We've been dating for almost a year as well.

Also, I have a feeling that a lot of people who responded take this as a personal attack on your beliefs, her beliefs or beliefs in general. That's not the case, I don't have a problem with faith, just religion, especially the organized sort. I have a problem with teaching "values" and "morals". I want to teach, reason and rational thought. Thinking for yourself is more valuable to me. Which she does... that's not the issue, the issue is essentially her families expectations.

Also, a lot of you also made the assumption that what ever I said here, I haven't discussed with her? I have, and I did this morning and we agreed that the real issue is her parents...

If you spent more time reading and less time being offended, you'd realize that by enslaved, I meant that she was doing a lot of things against what *SHE* wants to do and its making *HER* feel trapped. *SHE* feels obligated to do these things, and she admits that she isn't free to live as she wants. Use some logic... she's dating an entp, and she's an infj, she knows me pretty well :P

Also for the record, I'm not an atheist, I'm agnostic... and I can an actually be quite spiritual at times. And I do realize that a lot of the confusion is my fault, maybe I should be more clear next time? I have a hard time explaining things that are emotionally close to me... I ramble and my speech sounds broken :(.
 
simply put, if you are agniostic i recommend you stay away from relationships with those who are heavily into religion.
it's oil and water, dude.
 
Ixsportu2er said:
I think the majority of you miss understand. First. I wasn't saying she was both a feeler and a thinker only that unlike a lot of feeler types, infjs have a huge capacity for Ti use.

Also, I'm replying on a phone, so grammar issues are related to that.
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Spelling and syntax are both issues here. Typing with a phone shouldnt affect grammar too much. I was under the impression you were the INFJ dating the ENTP.


Also, I have a feeling that a lot of people who responded take this as a personal attack on your beliefs, her beliefs or beliefs in general.
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Wrong. I'm essentially agnostic too.

In any case, I think this is something you'll have to continue talking to her about openly for a long period of time. Explain your thinking to her, and give her time to mull things over.
 
Ixsportu2er said:
I think the majority of you miss understand..
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lol riiiiiiiiiiiight that's what it is ;)

[MENTION=4855]JGirl[/MENTION] has the best advice for you both IMO you're just wasting time...you two are incompatible.

For the record, I'm not particularly religious.
 
JGirl said:
simply put, if you are agniostic i recommend you stay away from relationships with those who are heavily into religion.
it's oil and water, dude.
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She's not so heavily into her religion, her family is, but as an infj (don't know if I can attribute this to all infjs) she really respects her family, and what they think. They're very traditional and almost a year and I haven't met them partly because were of different ethnicities, and because of the differences in belief.

Examples: her parents think she's a virgin, and she's far from it... were both in our mid twenties and they'd have a fit if they knew we've been in the same room alone for more than an hour... maybe that can put this situation into perspective?
 
niffer said:
Spelling and syntax are both issues here. Typing with a phone shouldnt affect grammar too much. I was under the impression you were the INFJ dating the ENTP.




Wrong. I'm essentially agnostic too.

In any case, I think this is something you'll have to continue talking to her about openly for a long period of time. Explain your thinking to her, and give her time to mull things over.
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This website uses a weird mobile version and the box to respond is 2 lines big, so I can not see what I'm typing :( and when I Backspace it flips out and reloads. Sometimes it even transposes words I'm writing to different parts of the paragraph. That and I'm upside down and covered in blankets :(

I appreciate that response! That's the conclusion we came to, I think we'll be fine, we think were going to just move far away :P so it doesn't look like she's disrespectful, but can also do what she wants.
 
Ixsportu2er said:
She's not so heavily into her religion, her family is, but as an infj (don't know if I can attribute this to all infjs) she really respects her family, and what they think. They're very traditional and almost a year and I haven't met them partly because were of different ethnicities, and because of the differences in belief.

Examples: her parents think she's a virgin, and she's far from it... were both in our mid twenties and they'd have a fit if they knew we've been in the same room alone for more than an hour... maybe that can put this situation into perspective?
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i have to say that if she truly respected her family and what they think she would not be going behind their backs and doing things that are against her upbringing and/or religion.
her parents think she is a virgin, and she's far from it? i don't even want to know what 'far from it' means!
the point i'm making is that from what you have shared here it's obvious to me that you are both spinning your wheels and getting nowhere.
running away to live the way you want is for children. if you truly want to be together stand up as adults and live your life the way that suits you both.

edit to add-
she's not an irrational twat that most feelers tend to be.
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i find this offensive. most feelers (as you refer to them/us) are not irrational twats.
 
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JGirl said:
i have to say that if she truly respected her family and what they think she would not be going behind their backs and doing things that are against her upbringing and/or religion.
her parents think she is a virgin, and she's far from it? i don't even want to know what 'far from it' means!
the point i'm making is that from what you have shared here it's obvious to me that you are both spinning your wheels and getting nowhere.
running away to live the way you want is for children. if you truly want to be together stand up as adults and. live your life the way that suits you both.
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'Far from it' was used as a figure of speech, she's only been with a few guys. Bad choice of words :P

And I completely agree with you. But she's scared, that's part of the problem I guess. How would I go about convincing her to stand up to her parents?

And if she never does, what do I do? Stop being with someone I love because of her parents? That seems stupid. I won't allow something extrinsic to our relationship stop us from being together, when intrinsicly were so good for each other.
 
Ixsportu2er said:
'Far from it' was used as a figure of speech, she's only been with a few guys. Bad choice of words :P

And I completely agree with you. But she's scared, that's part of the problem I guess. How would I go about convincing her to stand up to her parents?

And if she never does, what do I do? Stop being with someone I love because of her parents? That seems stupid. I won't allow something extrinsic to our relationship stop us from being together, when intrinsicly were so good for each other.
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you cannot convince her to stand up to her parents. this woman is adult. she obviously does not want to, or she would.
if she chooses not to stand up, that should be sending you a huge message. so what if you love someone. that should not be the be all end all deciding factor in anything.
feel with your heart, but think with your head.
think with your head.
i cannot say that enough.
from what you have written here i do not see how you two are good for each other. your relationship is riddled with doubt, lies, and incompatabilities.
love her from afar. move on to someone that you have more in common with.
 
Ok, so, one thing I want to know is, are her parents actually Amish or were you just using that as a metaphor? It makes a HUGE difference. If they are actually Amish, traditional Amish, if she chooses to "run away" with you and turns her back on her religion and her family, she will be excommunicated. After their Rumspringa, they are only given one chance to come back...if they chose not to, then they are never allowed back again. If this is the case, it needs to be HER decision and her's alone. If you pressure her, it will come back to bite you in the long run. What happens if things don't work out between the both of you in the future? She will be left with no one. If you truly care about her, you will lay all of this out on the table and allow her to come to her own conclusion, without pressure, for as long as it takes. Running away is not the answer. She needs to know the possible consequences of her actions and be prepared to live with those decisions should things not work out.

Even if she is not actually Amish, some of this still applies. It still needs to be her decision, and again, running away is not the answer. The two of you will need to discuss and come to a compromise regarding how your children will be raised, before you have any. Also, the two of you will have to respectfully stand up to her parents and ask that they return the respect by honoring your decisions. You will have a long, hard road ahead of you, but if you go about it in a mature, respectful manner, the chances of a positive outcome are more likely. It's not impossible for an agnostic and a religious person to have a successful relationship, but it will take a LOT of maturity and a LOT of compromise. You're definitely going to have to work at it.

Also, I suggest that when you have children, that you expose them to both options and allow them to make up their own minds regarding religion. I am an agnositic myself...but I am educating my kids to know the aspects of both so that they can come to their own conclusions. Forcing them to be agnostic or atheist is just as bad as forcing religion down their throats, IMO. A little knowledge never hurt anyone.
 
Relationships involving individuals with different fundamental beliefs are a recipe for disaster unless either you become a Christian or she becomes agnostic (or an atheist). Have you asked her what her denomination is or what she was raised in? Another thing you could try doing is asking what the reasons behind her beliefs are (this is crucial). The nicest thing you could do is leave (things will only get far more complicated) and find someone else that shares your worldview. Individuals raised in groups such as the Amish have very strong set roots in Christian fundamentalism and biblical literalism, and limited education (their education tends to stop at 8th grade). Its part of Amish tradition when they let young teens and adults (at age 16, known as rumspringa, the period of courtship) and leave the flock for a while, during that period thats when the young adults decide whether or not to go back to the Amish. If she is Amish chances are shes in this period of time, usually during rumspringa the Amish are free to do what they want (and I mean, do whatever they want), usually most of them are encouraged to find a mate (which could be you) to bring back to the community to permanently live with and start a family. If you chose to leave the community, her and you will be cut off from her family and anything to do with them, usually family is valued more than partners (the Amish are known for marrying cousins from the same community).

You're treading on eggshells with this one, especially if she is Amish or part of a similar group (I can speak from experience because I was born into a similar enviroment, thankfully both of my parents left and fortunately neither of their families were involved in the group).

[video=youtube;4BpBBaFimYY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BpBBaFimYY[/video]
 
Vicarious said:
Ok, so, one thing I want to know is, are her parents actually Amish or were you just using that as a metaphor? It makes a HUGE difference. If they are actually Amish, traditional Amish, if she chooses to "run away" with you and turns her back on her religion and her family, she will be excommunicated. After their Rumspringa, they are only given one chance to come back...if they chose not to, then they are never allowed back again. If this is the case, it needs to be HER decision and her's alone. If you pressure her, it will come back to bite you in the long run. What happens if things don't work out between the both of you in the future? She will be left with no one. If you truly care about her, you will lay all of this out on the table and allow her to come to her own conclusion, without pressure, for as long as it takes. Running away is not the answer. She needs to know the possible consequences of her actions and be prepared to live with those decisions should things not work out.

Even if she is not actually Amish, some of this still applies. It still needs to be her decision, and again, running away is not the answer. The two of you will need to discuss and come to a compromise regarding how your children will be raised, before you have any. Also, the two of you will have to respectfully stand up to her parents and ask that they return the respect by honoring your decisions. You will have a long, hard road ahead of you, but if you go about it in a mature, respectful manner, the chances of a positive outcome are more likely. It's not impossible for an agnostic and a religious person to have a successful relationship, but it will take a LOT of maturity and a LOT of compromise. You're definitely going to have to work at it.

Also, I suggest that when you have children, that you expose them to both options and allow them to make up their own minds regarding religion. I am an agnositic myself...but I am educating my kids to know the aspects of both so that they can come to their own conclusions. Forcing them to be agnostic or atheist is just as bad as forcing religion down their throats, IMO. A little knowledge never hurt anyone.
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+1
 
Although she's not Amish she was raised very traditionally and homeschooled. I can't see what I'm typing so please excuse me if parts are messed up. I've been doing (already) most of the great advice in the last two post. We actually have an amazing relationship! We make each other laugh all the time and love each other a lot. Yes we different on beliefs but not ideas, she's a smart reasonable woman, and we work really well together. But for the most part we've ignored her family and her "beliefs". She actually doesn't agree with most of the Bible, but she still believes in god. Her family are the traditional ones. Moving away was originally a joke between me and her but now we've decided that Texas is to hot and really kind of backwards so we want to move for other reasons as well. I don't know if she'll ever be able to confront her parents, she made it clear that she was never going to tell them about her virginity... but I was hoping that if we get married we could avoid things like baptisms and forcing our kids to follow silly traditions (she's not Baptist, just an example).

For the record, I appreciate. The last two post, that's exactly the type of response I was looking for :)
thanks!
I especially like the part about letting her make her own decisions because lately I've been pushy, I think she'll come around, she already resents a lot of her upbringing, and even of she doesn't, I believe. In Dr. Manhattan, so I can't really be upset with her for god :P
 
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in a perfect world, religion teaches spirituality. fuck what other people use it for, its what SHE uses it for that matters. lots of people misuse religion as is well noted by lots, and lots of people. taking it literally negates what it could be used for.
the Bible is a great tool for metaprogramming and changing your reality. also, how are you gonna disagree with a story? -.-
 
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