Imagine... | INFJ Forum

Imagine...

GracieRuth

Permanent Fixture
Aug 19, 2011
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I just finished listening to L'Internationale, the international song of socialism which I first heard watching the movie, Reds. It is a compelling anthem, even if you don't understand the words. It gives me visions of humanity working together to throw off shackles and live in peace. My entire life, each time I encounter socialist idealism I have the same reaction: initial attraction, followed by a strong intuitive "Beware the Monkey's Paw!"

There is no other song that so eloquently paints the socialistic atheist vision of paradise more than John Lennon's IMAGINE. It strikes deep, deep within my heart. Its beauty, its simplicity... it is genius. I love to listen to it. I love to sing along with it. Until I actually do take the time to imagine what he describes, and what I see is more like nightmare.

Last night I ran across an artical that I would like to share and discuss. The author essentially argues the case for preferential love over universal love, and makes extraordinary points. The name of the artical is Lennonism vs. Judaism by Ze
 
I don't know.. I can identify with the socialist philosophy... and I don't think that punishing, torturing and oppressing people is the way to bring them together...
So it kind of irritates me when those who oppose the philosophy paint it with the broad brush stroke of psychopaths and maniacs--just to scare others into really evaluating the idea.
I don't think that violence and oppression are tenets of socialism, but that is because I've taken the time to actually think about the concepts.
 
I might say that I'd agree with him on not being able to have that most common universal love that so many religions speak of. That sort of statement would be "I love everything in the world equally!" If universal love is realized, I think the statement would be more along the lines of "I am a part of this world, and I am a part of everything in this world, and I sure am enjoying myself!"

More importantly, however, I take the "let's just have peace" sentiment as ignoring our fundamental human nature. Our subconscious nature is tribal. We fight. We do awful things to each other. If we didn't naturally do that, then why the hell has it been going on for so many years? The only way to circumvent that would be to:

1. Teach all children well about their basic natural desires and how they sometimes lead us astray.
2. Have all the children voluntarily agree to it and practice it.
3. Have this cycle repeat over and over and over with each generation without collapsing.

The first item we do to an extent in schools, but parents may teach them other things, or the message may not get through (they may hear and comprehend it, but not understand or internalize it). Who are we to tell a child how to think, anyway? What basis do we have, aside from personal experience? The second item is an absurd to have faith in. The third adds an exponential component to the second item.

So what are we to do? I suppose that accepting the world the way it is might be a good choice. Accepting that a lot of people will do nasty things, and living within it. There are others who wonder this too: If everyone was fed, everyone had houses, and there was nothing that could do us any harm... wouldn't the world be quite boring for our time here? And even moreso if we figured out immortality!

I more and more think that governments evolve into each other. Anarchy to dictatorship to revolution to democracy to socialism to dictatorship to revolution... One thing I'd be willing to put my money on though, is that a true community state where everyone cares for each other on a mass scale will not exist anywhere in centuries to come, if ever. We cannot build one, for we will destroy it. We must desire it naturally. Right now, we naturally desire this hierarchical struggle that we are all in... and we want to be on top.

Or so I think.
 
Were we forced to be a rigid authoritarian, socialist state, i.e., like places where L'Internationale is sung (
 
that is because I've taken the time to actually think about the concepts.

I'm curious what concepts do you think you have spent time thinking abut that others don't? My assumption is that we INFJ's are the ultimate in reflection, and I rather supsect that there will be very few in this forum who have not thought about MOST issues at one time or another. I try to make it a habit never to assume that someone who disagrees with me is automatically stupid, uneducated, or bad, simply by virtue of their disagreement.

So did you read the artical before replying?
 
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First: very interesting, thank you for sharing! Personal view ~ any extreme in either direction damages the individual and the society, both "sides" need to be taken in moderation.

About the Story: it happens, being okay with everything means a person is not true to themselves, they are nothing more than a melting pot of everyone else's ideas. But, being so consumed with your own life, your own wants, showing disrespect just because you believe you know what is right so much more than anyone else, well, that is also harmful.

Solution: believe what you believe, be who you are, be proud of it and share it; do not fear it. At the same time respect other people even if you don't agree with them. Be courteous and concencious; in my mind there is never a good reason to be impolite.

About Love: I don't think I agree with the "everything is based on love..." because if it was humans would behave a lot differently... Studies show that most people have certain groups of other human beings they consider to be on the same level as an object... like a chair... or dirt. Their brain waves indicate the same response when discussing a chair and criminals in prison, the homeless, radicals of the other side. This occurs in a large number of people, but not all. If it didn't occur in anyone, I think that would be a good improvement. Everyone is alive, everyone feels, thinking about others as dirt, as an object, whoever the person is, damages not only your interactions with them but also changes your brain chemistry and makes it more likely that you will start to think of larger and larger groups of people as dirt. If this phenomena did not occur, then love might have a chance.

Could be my point of view is off: I freely admit to "loving" everyone, or caring about everyone equally. And yes, this may mean I don't know love, maybe I don't, I've never been in a relationship, I don't even know if real love is possible. I hope it is. But, be that as it may, as my religion taught me: loving your neighbor does not mean feeling that fuzzy feeling you sometimes get for everyone, it means doing right by them no matter how you feel. That is true love. Doing what needs to be done for other people no matter how you feel because that is our purpose in this life. Help one another.

Desert/Water Situation: Give it too whoever would be able to do the most good/be the most help to people once they got out of the desert. Critically analyze yourself and the other person and do what needs to be done based on who has the most needed or critical skills. This may sound cold but that in and of itself is a blessing. No worries about how you are perceived, about self-sacrifice, about killing another. It is what is needed, and there are no regrets.

So maybe I don't know love, but I know that dehumanizing anyone damages the individual. And preferential love may be what this world runs on, but I would not call that love, at least not the biblical definition of love. Love your neighbor as yourself includes everyone. I take better care of my family and close friends than other people because those are the people God has put within my reach to do the most good for. Everyone else is just a friend I have yet to make. That does not mean I agree with their views, or will validate their actions, or believe they are entitled to anything. What it does mean is that I will help those I am in a position to help, that I can help. I believe that anyone who has the ability to help another has the responsibility to help. And I will help those in my immediate circles more because they are who God has placed closer to me that I can help more. That does not mean forgetting the rest, but that does mean focussing my attention where it can do the most good.

Practical, practical, practical.

About the end: Both sides hold extremes, forcing people to be alike and taking away what makes them unique is as horrid as the author fully wants us to believe. On the other hand, a purely capitalistic society based on preferential love destroys those with great potential just because they are not in the right place at the right time. Both views are misguided although both come from a desire to understand and do their best for people. A balance, a flux, and oscillatory motion, that is what is needed for this world, and for our humanity to survive.

My opinion only, I do not mean to offend either side, but I see much of that as being written in anger and anger is a useless exercise that doesn't do anyone any good, no matter the reasoning. "Do what you can, with what you have, where you are, and accept the rest." So either work to change something or accept it for what it is, those are the options. Getting mad does not change anything, therefor it is not useful. Occasionally it can be used to reduce stress or to vent and help a person be in a calmer state of mind, but otherwise it is silly. I have a hard time believing anything said in anger by anyone... the same can be said though for the people's anger at others for not understanding universal love though. I disbelieve their ideas as well. By allowing themselves to not make a choice/decision on one religion/way of life over any other, they are abdicating their uniqueness and ability to make a difference. They are denying themselves more than they are denying love, it seems to me, which is just as foolish.
 
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Now, my question to you is: to what extent can socialism remain free of totalitarianism? The author posits it cannot; it will naturally turn in that direction as the ONLY way to achieve non-particularity. What think you?

I'm particularly against authoritarian socialism, or totalitarianism. On the other hand, Nordic nations such as Sweden and Norway are social democracies that seem to work well. Scandinavians have among the highest standards of living in the world. They are good people, in general.

Some societies appear to be free and slightly socialist with a balance between individual rights and communitarian values. There is no one way for things to work. People who think there is only one way that the world can work are rigid, stupid, and suffering from early onset dementia, Alzheimer's or a similar disorder. Life is not a tea party.
 
Aya:

Fabulous post!

Studies show that most people have certain groups of other human beings they consider to be on the same level as an object...

This is quite true. It appears to be biologically ingrained for humans to divide the world into "us" and "them" and to assume the "us" is smarter, friendlier, better looking, etc. However, there does seem to be a small minority of us who are attracted to differences. At any rate, I suspect that at some point in our evolutionary history, it was simply a survival matter to distrust the stranger.

My question to you: don't you have any family that you feel a greater sense of responsibility and affection for, more than say the person in the cubicle next to you at work?

my religion taught me: loving your neighbor does not mean feeling that fuzzy feeling you sometimes get for everyone, it means doing right by them no matter how you feel.
Well said!

I'm not nitpicking you, cuz I think that DID need to be said. But it should also be recognized that this sort of biblical love is not what we long for. That is the author's point. I think it is important in this discussion to remember that "love" has a lot of different meanings, but the artical is talking about just one of those meanings. And yes, the meanings of "love" can sometimes overlap, and that can make it a tricky subject to discuss. I'm going to be reading the thread very carefully to try to ward off any semantical misunderstandfings.
 
Norton:

While I don't think Sweden is evil or anything, I have to say I'm not particularly fond of Swedish culture. I would never ever ever want to live there.
 
I'm curious what concepts do you think you have spent time thinking abut that others don't? My assumption is that we INFJ's are the ultimate in reflection, and I rather supsect that there will be very few in this forum who have not thought about MOST issues at one time or another. I try to make it a habit never to assume that someone who disagrees with me is automatically stupid, uneducated, or bad, simply by virtue of their disagreement.

So did you read the artical before replying?
There is an obvious agenda..
Being an INFJ does not make you insusceptible to that.
 
Norton:

While I don't think Sweden is evil or anything, I have to say I'm not particularly fond of Swedish culture. I would never ever ever want to live there.

Their herring is delicious (not to mention their pastries).

As unchecked socialism can become totalitarian, so can capitalism. Capitalism can descend, and has descended, into fascism. So, take your pick of the extremes.

Right now, in the US, corporations and the wealthy have too much power particularly at the expense of the middle class, yet the middle class is critical to maintaining a moderate society. Currently, it isn't doing well in the US. Actually, the so-called job creators are the middle class, not the wealthy, because, as in my case, it's the middle class that invents things and starts companies. So, taxing the rich an extra 4% has nothing to do with socialism or job creation. I can attest to this having been a "job creator" for much of my working life. Any wealthy person who can't figure out how to live with an additional 4% marginal tax rate, is an idiot.

The problem with politics is that it is too often based on ideology, not pragmatism. Ideology assumes an a priori knowledge of what works. Since this is impossible and, indeed, stupid, particularly with complex systems such as economics, eschewing any of the economic tools, including taxes, is foolish and dangerous. If either side, Republican or Democratic, has demonstrated anything, it's how stupid it is to be driven by ideology instead of empirical pragmatism. But, then again, I come from a family of scientists and engineers, and we believe the world is older than 4,000 years.