I need to hear from the females of this forum.

[JohnDoe]

Again with the missing humor. I really wasn't being serious and thought it was pretty obvious. Whose funny bone needs a tune-up here, yours or mine?

I have no problem with disagreements, but I'm not willing to back down on this issue. I'm not just going to shut up and take it, allow people to write things like "women should be shunned" for choosing to express their opinion and talk about personal safety. I don't like it when boys think it's ok to behave that way because it's not. It's really, really not.

And its really not ok for you to come here and launch your crusade against men. It is insulting beyond belief. If you want to talk about risk management I'm all for it. The SR article is not about risk management at all. The fact that you ignore posts discussing legitimate risk management that would do far more good then SR style wholesale sterotyping proves your not interested in personal safety, you are interested in making yourself feel good by espousing your viewpoint and declaring everyone else to be wrong.

 

[thirtiesgirl]

You seem to have trouble differentiating reasonable with likely. People's emotions are not logic gates. You don't go "oh that discussion about blink 182 was so perceptive that I'm going to fall for you." Falling/liking someone is not a logical decision. Plenty (most? all?) people are damaged. Sorry, no one is a perfect new car.

Wow. Do you really have such a deep perception into women's minds that you know how each of us thinks? Tell me, hon, what am I thinking now? :suspicious:

To help you out here, since it seems you need it, when a woman flirts with you, it doesn't mean she's falling for you. It just means she thinks she might like you, wants to play a little and see where it goes. We're really not such impulsive beings that the second a guy makes a witty comment, we immediately fall in love with you, as much as you might like it to be that way.

 

[JohnDoe]

Wow. Do you really have such a deep perception into women's minds that you know how each of us thinks? Tell me, hon, what am I thinking now? :suspicious:

To help you out here, since it seems you need it, when a woman flirts with you, it doesn't mean she's falling for you. It just means she thinks she might like you, wants to play a little and see where it goes. We're really not such impulsive beings that the second a guy makes a witty comment, we immediately fall in love with you, as much as you might like it to be that way.

Same neural pathways. Thinking you like someone uses a different part of the brain then logical decisions. In particular logical decisions use working memory etc whereas decisions about who you like are made at a much older (and unconscious level). Any discussion what so ever that implies you can decide to like someone is thus nonsense.

On Edit: Cut the sexist bullcrap. Men and women are exactly the same when it comes to how our brains work in this regard.

On Edit2: All I'm saying is that you make it sound like attraction is a conscious decision. Maybe this isn't what you intended to convey but if it is it is certainly not true.

 

[thirtiesgirl]

3. I'm sorry, but this isn't a humorous subject for many young men and women. Don't badger me over humor in this thread; humor is misplaced here. There is nothing funny about not finding love.

Hon, if you don't start finding humor in the process of looking for love, it's going to be slow, sad going for you. I speak from experience.

4. If women believe that every man who approaches them is a potential rapist, then they should be far more afraid of the men that they actually do know. See: date rape.

It works like this: because most women understand that we live in a culture of violence and men we don't know could be potential rapists, once we get to know a guy who we feel we can trust, there's a sense of relief, the guard comes down and we give up that fear. We don't want to be walking around the planet afraid of every guy we meet. We don't want to be afraid of our guy friends. We want to be able to go out and have a drink on our own without a guy coming up and trying to hit on us. We want to be able to sit at the bus stop, reading a book, listening to our iPod, without some guy walking by and telling us to "smile, sweetie," as if we owed him something. We want to be able to do our job without male customers flirting with us on a constant basis. We want to be able to exist in public without guys thinking they can approach us, talk to us, hit on us, demand smiles or other behavior from us, simply because we're women. So when we meet a guy who we feel we can trust, who's a friend, we let go of that fear. That's why we're not afraid of the guys we call friends. We want to trust you and have one guy we can be around who we don't need to fear.

Also, here is the problem with finding that right person.
-Most of the good ones are taken.
-Of the remainder, most just want sex. Relationships have become uncool.
-Then you have the socially conservative/super religious ones. Sometimes they get lucky and find a guy who feels the same, but I think there are more females than males in this group. I kind of feel sorry for them because they sometimes end up spending a lot of time alone.

:violino something about it then. Change your attitude and quit complaining.

Also, I really hope that I'm not going to bars or am on the dating scene when I am 40. That would be my personal failure.

:yawn: ...Ah, yes. Judgment of the single person in their 40s; we've "failed" because we choose to remain single. Yeah, that's not old. Consider this: marriage and partnering up are not manifest destiny. I prefer my singlehood to putting up with a partner who can't give me what I need. I don't consider it a failure, but rather a success in avoiding societal expectations that I'm supposed to want to partner up, even if the person doesn't meet my expectations. I'm not going to sustain a bad relationship just because society considers me a "failure" because I'm single in my 40s.

 

[JohnDoe]

It works like this: because most women understand that we live in a culture of violence and men we don't know could be potential rapists, once we get to know a guy who we feel we can trust, there's a sense of relief, the guard comes down and we give up that fear. We don't want to be walking around the planet afraid of every guy we meet. We don't want to be afraid of our guy friends. We want to be able to go out and have a drink on our own without a guy coming up and trying to hit on us. We want to be able to sit at the bus stop, reading a book, listening to our iPod, without some guy walking by and telling us to "smile, sweetie," as if we owed him something. We want to be able to do our job without male customers flirting with us on a constant basis. We want to be able to exist in public without guys thinking they can approach us, talk to us, hit on us, demand smiles or other behavior from us, simply because we're women. So when we meet a guy who we feel we can trust, who's a friend, we let go of that fear. That's why we're not afraid of the guys we call friends. We want to trust you and have one guy we can be around who we don't need to fear.

So what you are saying is that you care more about feeling secure then about being secure yes?

 

[Odyne]

Mmmm what I was really getting at was that the so called good guys really arent so good. There arent any truly good guys or girls. Its just wishful thinking. Everyone is a screwed up somehow. Its just a matter of time til you find out what it is.

That's true. But then, there aren't bad guys either. Because there's something good and beautiful in everyone, no matter how small and invisible it might seem. =)

It's all a matter of perception and how much and on what levels you connect with the opposite sex (or same sex).

 

[thirtiesgirl]

Thirtiesgirl: it has been proven over and over that statistically rape is likely to be committed by someone you know: a friend, a relative, that guy you are going out with because your friend said he is the greatest guy in the world. The S Rapist argument is the most demeaning argument in the world because it specifically ignores this fact in an effort to demonize men. You are no more likely to be raped by a random guy then you are a friend. People just don't like admitting this fact because then they'd have to realize that their friends are potential rapists... and you are capable of picking friends better then that right? Are you really that naive that you believe your friends can't hurt you? That because you call them your friend they are less likely to rape or beat you? Do people really believe that most friends have your best interests at heart? Or do you just choose to believe that because you can't handle the reality of the situation: friends are just as likely to hurt you as strangers, maybe moreso. After all, I bet you trust your friends. Makes it a lot easier for them.

If all this is true (and I don't deny that it is), then isn't there more reason for women to fear men they don't know? If a guy friend doesn't think twice about raping us, doesn't that give us even more cause to fear men we don't know? Think about it. It's not that hard to make the correlation.

And its really not ok for you to come here and launch your crusade against men. It is insulting beyond belief. If you want to talk about risk management I'm all for it. The SR article is not about risk management at all.

"Crusade against men?" Allow me to quote you some statistics:

1 out of every 6 American women has been the victim of an attempted or completed rape in her lifetime (14.8% completed rape; 2.8% attempted rape).

17.7 million American women have been victims of attempted or completed rape.

9 of every 10 rape victims were female in 2003.

About 3% of American men

 

[flowerz]

Any female who says they aren't turned on by general dickishness is lying through their teeth.

Most of the self-proclaimed "nice guys" I've met have turned out to be dicks. And we could easily turn this around and show how many guys throw themselves at the feet of women who treat them like crap - women who are cold, calculating, and withholding. Treat a guy with generosity, true affection, interest, and love, and he goes running for the hills.

 

[JohnDoe]

If all this is true (and I don't deny that it is), then isn't there more reason for women to fear men they don't know? If a guy friend doesn't think twice about raping us, doesn't that give us even more cause to fear men we don't know? Think about it. It's not that hard to make the correlation.

Um... No. Why do you believe someone you don't know is more likely to hurt you then someone you do? The statistics simply don't back this up. Just because you trust someone does not mean they won't hurt you.

"Crusade against men?" Allow me to quote you some statistics:

1 out of every 6 American women has been the victim of an attempted or completed rape in her lifetime (14.8% completed rape; 2.8% attempted rape).

17.7 million American women have been victims of attempted or completed rape.

9 of every 10 rape victims were female in 2003.

About 3% of American men

 

[JohnDoe]

Most of the self-proclaimed "nice guys" I've met have turned out to be dicks. And we could easily turn this around and show how many guys throw themselves at the feet of women who treat them like crap - women who are cold, calculating, and withholding. Treat a guy with generosity, true affection, interest, and love, and he goes running for the hills.

People who are nice without motives of either sex are rare. And unfortunately usually frequently taken advantage of.

 

[flowerz]

If you wait for a woman to invite you to talk, that invitation will never come. Most women talk to other women primarily, and they wont be happy to talk to men unless those men either come on strong or they get to know them. If a man gets to know a woman and becomes friends with her, more often than not he is automatically disqualifying himself from being her boyfriend.

I've even been told that women are attracted to men who act stupid because that is demonstrating to women that the man has more testosterone, and by this action he is demonstrating to the woman that he has good genes because they can withstand the toxicity of the testosterone. In other words, I've been told that women are biologically attracted to stupid men. The person who told me this had a PH.D. in psychology and taught social psychology (it is supposedly empirically based, but I have no idea what study). I may have also heard it from a Ph.D. biologist but I can't remember.

This is just not true. I talk to other men (who I am not dating) all the time, more than women actually. And I would gladly go on a date with any of the single ones if they would ask me.

How many women have turned you down or given you the cold shoulder? 2? 5? I've been rejected by MANY men, both in real life and online. I've had my heart broken COUNTLESS time. But I keep trying. It's called resilience. You have to be resilient if you want to find love in this day and age. You have to have some faith that not every girl you meet is going to act like so-and-so from your past. Move on. Get to know new people. Get out there and put yourself in different situations - join some clubs, take a dance class, do something!!

I get pretty sick of guy's crap and I feel hopeless sometimes but I keep trying. Actually I would like to give up sometimes but I just like men too much! If you don't actually like women and have zero faith in them, you'll never find one.

Regarding the psychologist's comments, I think you misunderstood them (I am also a psych grad student). Men have evolved a tendency to show off and engage in more risky behavior than women as a way to signal their "good genes." Note that I said TENDENCY so not all men act like this and not all women like it - it will depend on the situation, other factors in the environment, etc. But women also like intelligence, honesty, and kindness. There has to be a balance. I once went on a date with a guy who was really into motorcycles and he told me about how he liked to go WAY over the speed limit on the highway and outrun cops. Immediately I thought "This is probably BS and an exaggeration - not attractive!" and I also thought "wow, he is recklessly endangering other drivers on the road and not caring about anyone other than himself and his thrill." I never saw him or talked to him again.

 

[flowerz]

In theory it looks good. In practice however if a woman displays her availability in such a way then she most probably relate to the "damaged" category in one way or another. Because if she has the goods then she already has a long list of candidates who would like to get intimate. So unless you're really hot you gonna get no signs from her.

What?? Are you saying that if we make our self approachable and available we must be damaged goods?

And other posters are complaining that women don't take enough initiative and make the guys do too much work!

Jeezie louisie...

Yeah, I have a list of guys who want to get intimate with me, but it's not going to happen because they won't even meet me for coffee b4 sleeping with me. They just invite me back to their apt, that's it. I have turned them all down in disgust. I don't care what they look like or how much $ they make. If they cannot give me the respect (or the mental/emotional foreplay!!) of taking me on a basic date first then I know they have no desire to get to know ME or make a true connection with me. They just see me as a piece of meat, an instrument for their ego.

DO THE WORK to positively set yourself apart from the others and you will be rewarded.

 

[WellNoWonder]

I don't share these things to minimize the feelings of anyone who might think of or refer to himself as a "nice guy," but to let you know that most nice guys truly don't need to advertise the fact to a woman of any intelligence by continuing to insist that you're a "nice guy," "I don't mean you any harm," etc, etc, ad infinitum. What will prove that fact to us far more than any words you say in repetitive, annoying fashion, are your actions. If you're truly a nice guy, you'll leave women alone in a public place unless we're clearly giving you signals to approach us. You won't get upset if you do approach us and we turn you down, continuing to insist angrily that you're a "nice guy," and we have no right to be offended when you approach us for some simple conversation. To paraphrase the Shapely Prose blog post, if you can't accept our "no" in a public situation like that, who's to say how you'll act towards us when we're alone?

A true nice guy would take the hint and move on. A guy who continues to insist that he's "just a nice guy" after we've turned him down is just as much of a world class asshole as a guy who won't take no for an answer.
[/RANT]

The two biggest assholes I ever dated were guys who kept insisting they were nice guys. They also used gentle language and subtle gestures, were generally polite...and beneath all of that was bullshit quite frankly.

I fell for it both times, but it was a learning process. I was going by the media depiction of how an obviously nice guy would approach me, his mannerisms, and such and such and so.

Now my husband can be crass and excitable, which I like anyway, but he is brutally honest about who he, good and the bad, and THAT is what primarily attracted me to him...Then I could choose whether to deal with him or not.

...if you're nice, you're nice dammit and if a woman can't see that in you, then move to the next one...

 

[Reon]

Um... No. Why do you believe someone you don't know is more likely to hurt you then someone you do? The statistics simply don't back this up. Just because you trust someone does not mean they won't hurt you.

I don't think fear is always logical...Then we have some certain reinforcers like the media. Also...no one's perfect, especially in the issue of falling for somebody. Also, I think there has already been a thread on protecting yourself from rape, I don't think we need to turn THIS thread into that one, we can just simply bump it back if you want to discuss that.

Rape prevention

 

[88chaz88]

I solved this thread 19 posts in. Make up a bunch of complicated arguments all you like but in reality for the type of women that fall into this trap it all boils down to one thing:

Asshole-ism is sexy.

 

[TheLastMohican]

First off, Barnabas, most of "us females" like to be referred to as women. Using terms like "you females" or "the females" makes us feel like you're referring to us as a species, not as actual people. And for this woman, that's not ok. The term "women" shows respect for our humanity, and I'd appreciate it if you and other guys who are tempted to use the term "females" when describing women would think twice before doing so. And I'll try to remember, when referring to you men out there, to not use the term "all you males." Ok?

He probably asked for responses from "females" because some of the females here are minors. Asking "women" only might cause those who are not adults to refrain from posting.

 

[thirtiesgirl]

I solved this thread 19 posts in. Make up a bunch of complicated arguments all you like but in reality for the type of women that fall into this trap it all boils down to one thing:

Asshole-ism is sexy.

Yet, strangely, hon, you fail to turn me on.

 

[Peppermint]

Asshole-ism is sexy.

I think women are attracted to strength, which can be a number of things. Strength of character, will, backbone, devotion, conviction, emotion. As well as material displays of strength for others. Some have the misfortune of confusing it with the more negative characteristics. (assholes, dickishness)

However there's also one more thing. A guy who acts like an asshole outwardly need not be a bad person or mate at all.

 

[Odyne]

@thirtiesgirl: You have made so many generalization here that are unfair to women as much as they are unfair to men. Your posts speak in "we", and I very much don't like how they attempt to speak for ALL women, so I am going to answer to some of what you said, because not all women agree with you.

Firstly, I would like to point out that men are also subject to ALOT, I repeat ALOT of social pressure and conditioning. Just as much as what woman are subjected to. Just look at some of the responses in this thread.

"my man needs to have good self-esteem"
"my man needs to know how to read the signs"
"men need to know when to approach a girl and when not to"
"a good man knows how to take the hint"
" a good man is this, a good man is that"

um, men are human beings, just like women, who need time to develop and grow as people.

That being said, don't you think that it's also the girl's fault that she got into a bad relationship with some "asshole" as you'd call it? why is it not women who need to better their judgement when choosing a partner?

If you think the guy is a jerk, then don't date him. End of story. If you think the guy is nice but turns out a to be a jerk later on. Well, I am sorry. I truly wish you a better luck next time, and try to choose your partners wisely. I repeat, next time, choose your partner wisely. Relationships are about trial and error, as well as learning and growth. You shouldn't blame one side, and victimize the other. Two people make a relationship, not one.

Also, there are bad seeds in both sexes, and people are bound to make mistakes. Some women are intolerable bitches too. They make the man feel under-appreciated and no matter how nice and loving the man is to her, it's just not enough. Do you know how frustrating that can be, and the strain it puts on a relationship? Let me add to that, that some women are also unfaithful and as much of a player as a man, if not even more. Also, heartbreakers, liars, a tease, deceiving, and so many many more. No sex is better than the other, in that aspect.


We all learn to love, respect, and maintain a healthy relationship with our partners. To say that it's the man's job only to make the relationship a happy one, is almost insulting to me as a woman. I am very capable of contributing positively to my love life and build a healthy connection with my partner.

Apparently I should be "shunned" for my opinions.

No you shouldn't be shunned, but you should definitely be reminded that you can't go around generalizing and speaking for all of us. and even attacking some of most respectable and considerate male members of this forum. (Yes, I just said males, and I still think of them as people, not species, nothing wrong with the term)

 

[88chaz88]

Yet, strangely, hon, you fail to turn me on.

Which only serves to prove my point further as I'm not actually an asshole, nor am I acting like one right now.

I think women are attracted to strength, which can be a number of things. Strength of character, will, backbone, devotion, conviction, emotion. As well as material displays of strength for others. Some have the misfortune of confusing it with the more negative characteristics. (assholes, dickishness)

However there's also one more thing. A guy who acts like an asshole outwardly need not be a bad person or mate at all.

This is exactly what I mean except I like to make sweeping, 1 sentence arguments and allow you N's to make up your own minds about what I'm saying.

I also like winding people up.