I have seen a lot of debates between Atheists and Christians, yet can I call myself either?

[Annaria]

In a way I can understand why, because I live in the West (or my country is sandwiched between the East and West) and Christianity has been a very visible form of believing in a supreme being.

Yet the traces of Paganism haven't been lost; they can be seen during Easter, Midsummer and Christmas. Even while going to sauna which we have aplenty. We aren't strangers to alternative beliefs.

At least from what I've gathered from the local online debates freethinking is unfortunately very much associated mainly with Atheism when it really consists of three directions that conform to no religion: Atheism, Agnosticism and Deism.

What I mean to say it that the debate for and against spirituality has been simplified, severely. And doesn't really look at the bigger picture.

On my own part I do believe in something that unifies all of the universe, at the very least. And that human is not an all knowing creature, nor we always have all the right tools to measure the spiritual world when we try to prove its existence.

Many of us have tried to measure distance with a thermometer, so to say: there may be something to go by or relate to but it doesn't show the direct answers.

 

[Sidis Coruscatis]

We do have the tools to prove the spiritual world, it's rather the skeptics who don't even know what would such proof even look like when they ask for it. If the fundamental characteristic of spirituality is that it occurs outside of material phenomena, then logically it won't be found under a microscope or in theoretical physics—and yet, that's ultimately the only source of knowledge they will trust. It's a meaningless, childish game to keep up the pretense of openness while they shift the burden of proof on you, even if they can never recognize such proof by their own standards.

 

[Annaria]

We do have the tools to prove the spiritual world, it's rather the skeptics who don't even know what would such proof even look like when they ask for it. If the fundamental characteristic of spirituality is that it occurs outside of material phenomena, then logically it won't be found under a microscope or in theoretical physics—and yet, that's ultimately the only source of knowledge they will trust. It's a meaningless, childish game to keep up the pretense of openness while they shift the burden of proof on you, even if they can never recognize such proof by their own standards.

You took the words right out of my mouth.

 

[Wyote]

You can call yourself a flying chicken for all I care.
Some people might not believe you though. Chickens don't really fly.

 

[Sidis Coruscatis]

You can call yourself a flying chicken for all I care.
Some people might not believe you though. Chickens don't really fly.

 

[Enso]

You can call yourself a flying chicken for all I care.
Some people might not believe you though. Chickens don't really fly.

They can dream though can't they

 

[Wyote]

View attachment 88596

They can dream though can't they

 

[aeon]

I have had a myriad of experiences that suggest this and that.

I have no means to be certain of what is real. So I go with what works, in the majority of cases.

There are things I believe, given life so far. Most, I cannot prove to anyone, or even show.

I would describe myself as agnostic. But that’s because language has no better words for me to use.

The idea of limiting one’s awareness and acceptance and explanation of the business of isness to material phenomena seems dodgy at best.

Try some of the rituals of the world’s perennial wisdom traditions.

I did, then inquired with the dancing machine elves, and I ended up here.

Cheers,
Ian

 

[Matty]

In a way I can understand why, because I live in the West (or my country is sandwiched between the East and West) and Christianity has been a very visible form of believing in a supreme being.

Yet the traces of Paganism haven't been lost; they can be seen during Easter, Midsummer and Christmas. Even while going to sauna which we have aplenty. We aren't strangers to alternative beliefs.

At least from what I've gathered from the local online debates freethinking is unfortunately very much associated mainly with Atheism when it really consists of three directions that conform to no religion: Atheism, Agnosticism and Deism.

What I mean to say it that the debate for and against spirituality has been simplified, severely. And doesn't really look at the bigger picture.

On my own part I do believe in something that unifies all of the universe, at the very least. And that human is not an all knowing creature, nor we always have all the right tools to measure the spiritual world when we try to prove its existence.

Many of us have tried to measure distance with a thermometer, so to say: there may be something to go by or relate to but it doesn't show the direct answers.

There is what the senses and physical instruments can perceive.
There is what the mind can construct with varying degrees of logical consistency.
Everything else is subject to belief.

Insisting that nothing else exists outside of what we can perceive or conceive seems very idiocentric and small minded.

Personally, I'm not attracted to beliefs which are of my own construction, because, as above, I reserve belief to things which are neither perceptible nor constructions of my own mind. The minimum threshold for me to entertain a belief is at least a claim that there is some self communication from beings which we have not seen or imagined (ie. A claim of self revelation). The last few years I have settled on the beliefs of the Catholic church for myself.

 

[ErikAlberto]

I’m wondering how many of the atheists involved in these arguments are ex-Christians who had traumatic experiences while in the church — or Christins who grew up with atheist parents who forbade any talk of God.

Even though it still ignores the relevance of all the gradations in-between, I think a debate between an atheistic worldview and a deistic (or theistic) worldview would make more sense to me (and be more of what I would expect, too.)

Also, @aeon, especially considering the words that preceded it, this is beautiful to me:

I would describe myself as agnostic. But that’s because language has no better words for me to use.

 

[aeon]

My sweetie grew up Catholic, but as she would describe, at a certain point she found she could no longer entertain that particular kind of faith.

She would self-describe as agnostic, with similar thoughts to mine about how there’s no better word for her thoughts and beliefs. She’s open to other people’s belief and expression, acknowledges she could be wrong, and rests comfortably in ambiguity, like me.

Since meeting me, she’s become a true godless heathen, and...saints be praised, lulz. In truth, I’ve done nothing more than support her efforts to recognize, and let go of, residual guilt.

Cheers,
Ian

 

[Sloe Djinn]

Was talking with a friend of mine recently about atheism or rather people who identify as atheist in general. He brought up an interesting observation about a friend of his who identified as atheist and decided to seek out a “community” nearby. He found one, but they pretty much only found purpose through criticizing organized religion and had nothing much else (constructive) going for them. This was to the extent that they even put off someone who was disillusioned with their own faith because the group had little to offer aside from heavy criticism of the person’s former beliefs.

 

[Matty]

Was talking with a friend of mine recently about atheism or rather people who identify as atheist in general. He brought up an interesting observation about a friend of his who identified as atheist and decided to seek out a “community” nearby. He found one, but they pretty much only found purpose through criticizing organized religion and had nothing much else (constructive) going for them. This was to the extent that they even put off someone who was disillusioned with their own faith because the group had little to offer aside from heavy criticism of the person’s former beliefs.

The more visible or vocal atheists are often repetitive Karens.

 

[AureaMediocritas]

I cannot be certain of any one thing other than that there is consistent evidence of my own and other's experiences with the spiritual. To have such a predominant unified experience with complete strangers spanning continents and throughout history, is a clear enough indicator to me that the pursuit of such things is ingrained into the human experience at a fundamental level. My innate curiosity cannot disavow such luminous correlations, so dismissively as easily as others seem to be able to do. As a consequence, I consecrate time to learn about, and to seek out, more of these experiences.

Don't give any thought, other than pity, to those so resolute in their own thinking that they cannot allow themselves to consider an alternative. You are not the one who is intellectually obtuse, it is on them.

 

[Wyote]

As a consequence, I consecrate time to learn about, and to seek out, more of these experiences.

How do you go about this, generally?

Also

 

[AureaMediocritas]

How do you go about this, generally?

Also

Firstly, nature tends to be a stage for such experience, and acts as a sort of conduit from the physical to the spiritual. So, I try to get outside as often as possible. Secondly, there is a reason that cathedrals are laden with stained glass, gold leaf pinnacles, and painted ceilings. We naturally associate beauty with spiritual awe, so I spend time looking at the beauty that can be found in our world (this can vary and spur on a spiritual experience from as little as observing the subtle intricacies in a painting down to the particular and complex idiosyncrasies in a human personality). If nothing else, these draw me ever closer to touching on the supernatural. Openness is also an integral component.

It was once said, "let your religion be less of a theory and more of a love affair." I rather like that it's a journey that we don't have to have all figured out; we just have to be willing.

The video... how ominous. Haha. Hello and Goodbye to you too.

 

[Anomalous]

Religion is a form of social control and a barrier to spirituality that makes it difficult for anyone to explore the unknown aspects of reality without someone hijacking the conversation with cultist terminology and brainwashed beliefs.

If one is open minded and curious about the unknown or what lies beyond scientific comprehension, then it makes little sense to default to the rigidity of an organised religion like Christianity, as if that were the only form that spirituality can take.