I don't get it... no really | INFJ Forum

I don't get it... no really

Discussion in 'Philosophy and Religion' started by Lerxst, Feb 23, 2013.

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  1. Lerxst

    Lerxst Well-known member

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    I was at a National Park this past summer and listened in while the ranger talked about the formation of the cliffs and how many millions of years it took to create them. So far, so good; he has the audience's attention. Everyone seems impressed and nods in agreement.

    After he leaves, one woman turns to a group and complains, "But he doesn't account for the Great Flood... and making things look older than they are..."

    How does this even happen? I don't understand how a person's brain can even function in such a way to even entertain a thinking function like science, that should draw on logic and end up completely bypassing that logic.

    I can understand reaching a compromise in saying that God created the Earth 4 billion years ago (or so) and the rocks, life, etc. that are on it are part of his creation. But to completely spit in the face of reason instead of finding a comfortable marriage of belief-with-science is just something I can't wrap my brain around.

    Now the real question is, despite my pseudo-rant:

    Why make it so much harder than it needs to be? Why create new and different stories that try to justify all these little things that can easily be explained with valid scientific reason?
     
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  2. Kgal

    Kgal Magic Star Dust
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    The simple answer is: People are afraid. They're afraid to be alone. So they gravitate towards others who are also afraid to be alone. They constantly assess the others in their group for the same way of thinking/behaviors in order to trust them.
    It all comes down to fear.

    That - and the bible tells people to "guard their hearts" and that means distrusting others who don't believe as they do. It is a complete indoctrination mind body and soul. And you know how that is....No thinking and/or questioning the authority of (God) is allowed. Right?

    I was subjected to a speech from a preacher in our little rural community at a meeting for health professionals the other day. He went on and on about guarding the heart by staying away from others who don't nurture the heart and worship of the lord. He even went so far as to tell people to not trust their emotions and to ignore them. Totally backwards to good health and ability to deal with the misery of the public we service every day. I almost puked.... :puke:
     
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  3. SealHammer

    SealHammer Flying Quesadilla

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    Pretty much everything [MENTION=2578]Kgal[/MENTION] said. When someone has deeply set beliefs, and something new challenges those beliefs, they're likely to deny the new thing entirely. It's a defense mechanism for those weak of spirit and mind, because if they allow that which defines their entire being (belief) to be scrutinized, they fear it may be damaged in the process. And considering the group which adheres to any controversial belief is basically one big club, the person doesn't want to be kicked out of the big club for thinking differently than everyone else.
    Fear is a mighty powerful drug.
     
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  4. Tin Man

    Tin Man "a respectable amount of screaming"

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    Simple answer. People are idiots and some people are more idiot than others.
     
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  5. muir

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    I think that people have been telling stories for thousands of years. They probably served many beneficial functions. Not only would story telling around a fire be a good communal event to help people connect and bond but i think good stories would have held information or insight within them

    Perhaps the wisdom stored in such stories would not always be readily apparent to young listeners but as they went about their life they might experience things that bring the story back to mind and they have an 'aha' moment where suddenly they understand a deeper aspect of the story and it helps them understand themselves and their place in the world better

    Some stories might have taught people about the stars, some about what plants to use for food or medicine and some would give insight into human nature

    The bible contains all sorts of stuff on all sorts of levels

    The danger comes when people take the story too literally and ignore the meaning behind the story; clearly when things are taken literally they begin to defy science.....you get people walking on water and the earth being 6000 years and other such strange events

    Indigenous people still tell stories and sing songs that pass on knowledge and understanding, but at some point in the past our anscestors, in the west, disconnected from the meaning within the stories and started valuing only a literal interpretation of the story

    I would trace that point to the creation of the Roman Catholic Church
     
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  6. sprinkles

    sprinkles Well-known member

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    I often get the feeling that people don't even believe what they say when this happens. It seems like just a way of showing their certified club membership.
     
  7. Apone

    Apone Permanent Fixture

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    I think they DO believe it and they're proud that they believe it, because they think that they understand something that other people don't. I agree that they like to advertise how they belong to a club, and how they've chosen their 'side'.
     
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  8. sprinkles

    sprinkles Well-known member

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    Maybe some believe it but I'm certain that many don't, even though they might want to very much and would never admit to it.

    There's often a certain flavor in their speech and body language which is like the elephant in the room. It's a completely different flavor from when one professes something that they actually believe to be true.
     
  9. OP
    Lerxst

    Lerxst Well-known member

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    I know the woman. Unfortunately, she really does believe it herself. :doh:
     
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  10. this is only temporary

    this is only temporary Community Member

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    This is a good question and I don't get it either. I was at the zoo a couple of years ago with several children, and said to a ten year old boy who was a part of our group, who was standing next to me "Isn't it so amazing and cool how whales evolved from marine mammals similar to these otters we are now looking at?" Amazing, right?

    Well he looked at me like I was the antiChrist and said he didn't believe in evolution. The kicker was, there were several highly educated people, all smarter than me, I'm quite sure, who were standing around with the group and heard this, and not one of them said anything. One even had a Phd, and one was a very well educated animal trainer/scientist/lawyer (don't ask). They said nothing. I just decided it was pointless and stopped talking, and decided right then and there I would not be sending my chidren to the private school this kid attended.

    P.S. And on a different, but slightly related note, my neighbor is a physics professor and very Christian. I'm a little scared to even try to talk to him, since I know nothing about physics and don't like religion much -- however, he seems nice enough. But I think the kicker is, he can handle metaphor and doesn't take things 100% literally -- some people seem to be incapable of doing that.
     
    #10 this is only temporary, Feb 25, 2013
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2013
  11. MrDoobie

    MrDoobie Community Member

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    I've noticed this too. What you have to remember is that a lot of people were raised in these religions, and that the worldview they grew up with is all they know. It's their family, it's their community, and many people, especially those who live in small towns, won't come across terribly many people with different beliefs than them until they go to college. Church isn't just a religion, it's a community, but one where you kind of need to believe certain things to continue to belong. Humans are programmed to seek community, and no matter who you are you don't want to be excised from your community.

    In fact, I would argue that many people in America aren't so much members of the Christian faith, but members of the Christian community. It's just the way they were raised and the friends and neighbors they've surrounded themselves with.

    In cases of extreme beliefs that fly in the face of logic and science, a lot of the (particularly younger) members of these faiths probably smell bullshit, but they don't want to say it. Saying it makes it real, y'know? They have doubts but as long as they don't voice them they stay nice and safe in their head where they aren't real. But giving voice to those doubts is a violation of the community you've spent your whole life in.
     
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  12. sprinkles

    sprinkles Well-known member

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    [MENTION=6082]MrDoobie[/MENTION]

    Yeah that was totally me, once upon a time.
     
  13. TheDoctor

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    If an omnipotent God is omnipotent then why couldn't he have created the universe six thousand years ago and made it where it had age already? Also, how are you sure that everything we "observe" is not a shared perception and than nothing physical really exist?

    The answer that faith is faith. Whether it be faith in the universe being billions of years old or 6000 years old, it is still faith. You Were Not There At The Beginning. Stop attacking people's beliefs just because you don't agree with them. If you believe they have faulty logic then try to have a discussion with them. Otherwise stop bitching and get over it.
     
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  14. acd

    acd Well-known member

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    Everyone has their own bias and suffers from cognitive dissonance. Can you identify your own?
     
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  15. Radiantshadow

    Radiantshadow Urban shaman

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    At the OP's question:

    Compared to the age of human civilization, science is young. If we consider the various philosophies employed as part of a garden, science is a seed growing up in shared soil with much older legacies that have long been using all the sunlight. The more developed, ripened flowers will naturally garner more attention until the seeds of science bloom into something as beautiful.
    Change takes time. Another pressing question, I think, is: what will happen when all others but one are either uprooted or withered as science's roots reach further and further down?
     
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    #15 Radiantshadow, Feb 26, 2013
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2013
  16. the

    the Si master race.
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    I hope you all enjoyed the lerxst sob-story hour. Come back next time to witness more woe and frowny faces.
     
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  17. MindYourHead

    MindYourHead Courage doesn't always roar.

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    Back when I was 24 my two best friends got hooked into an almost cult like Christian evangelistic church. It happened seemingly overnight, and I was shunned because according to them, the Christian teachings I had growing up was flawed. One of them was suppose to be my best man at my wedding which was just weeks away. He then refused because I according to him I was being married in a dead church.
    It was clearly the leader of this group that turned them against everyone that was close to them.
    I felt devastated.
    Over the years I have had occasional contact with them, and 28 years later they are still involved in it.

    Funny thing is they never tried to bring me into the group. I've never known if I should be grateful for that, or feel slighted. Lol.

    Like the Seinfeld episode were George Costanza wanted the cult that cleaned carpets to validate him by trying to recruit him. He then felt slighted at the end when his boss was recruited instead.
    "They just cleaned the carpets and left. And they call themselves a cult!"
     
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  18. MrDoobie

    MrDoobie Community Member

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    Why would he do that?
     
  19. sprinkles

    sprinkles Well-known member

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    If that's the case then there's no need to interject in front of a crowd, is there?

    I mean, what do we call that?

    It's all faith until somebody says the wrong thing. Then it becomes definite, doesn't it. When somebody is talking about the age of mountains and another stands up and says it doesn't account for the Great Flood and makes things look older than they are, what exactly do we call that?
     
  20. sprinkles

    sprinkles Well-known member

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    Also, I find this interesting.

    I visit a Taoist forum from time to time, and nobody comes along and tries to make scientific or logical arguments against the Tao. There are even some Buddhists that come there and they will debate about things but they will not attack the Tao.

    Guess who does come to attack the Tao and try to convince people that they are doing wrong.
     
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