Hyper Individualism

[muir]

As a species we have spent most of our evolutionary time living in communal groups as hunter gatherers

Settled farming and city life are relatively new in our evolutionary story

Is it fair then to suppose that we are emotionally wired up to work together in close knit communities, where we give and receive support in equal measure?

At this point in humanity's story however, many of us seem cramped into cities which are full of people yet low on connection.

Human's are social animals so that lack of connection is not going to be healthy for people

Many people are feeling disconnected, but the media has countless portrayals of people who seem happy; the problem with these portrayals is that they are false. They are created to drive consumerism by creating feelings of insecurity in people. If people are insecure, especially about their material possessions then they will try and buy their way out of that insecurity.

The system creates wants for those people and then supplies those wants to them. It should be geared towards dealing with people's needs but it isn't....it is all about creating wants through: advertising, marketing, public relations, media and then providing those wants at a profit for themselves

The other reason, i believe, is that a lot of media is crafted to make us think and feel certain ways; this is done to keep the herd calm and to discourage it from stampedeing. The other trick is to keep the herd divided by highlighting differences and this is done in the media all the time.....the result is obviously further disconnection

Capitalism wants its wage slaves to behave in very predictable ways. The people who run the system want people to finish work and go home and sit in front of the TV and shut off their brains. Either that or dissipate their energies in the countless frivolous ways that the system offers.

The capitalists will say it is peoples fault. They will say that we decide as consumers what demands we create and that all the responsibility is ours.

This is of course a lie, because it does not take into account how the government which shapes us from a young age through the education system and the private interests which shape us through the media and create our pseudo culture are basically working together and are essentially one and the same.

They shape us and tell us what we should want by creating our culture and influencing how we think and feel and see the world and then they turn round and chastise us for the problems this system creates and blame us for not taking responsibility.

They are fully conscious of what they are doing and if anyone doubts this then i would recommend you have a chat to someone working in the advertising industry and ask them how much psychology they employ to manipulate the way people think and feel about things

 

[magister343]

I don't really get what such materialism has to do with individualism. In a word where consumerism is the norm, trying to buy one's way to happiness could be considered a lack of individualism.

 

[muir]

Individualism is packaged and sold to people as part of consumerism.

As psychology has been used in political campaigns it has recognised that there are inner and outer directed people.

Inner directed people tend to form the bracket called 'swing voters'

To win your political campaign when things are usually so evenly balanced you have to influence the swing voters

In order to cater to swing voters politicians have tried to appeal to the swing voters by portrayals of such things as 'rugged individualism'

Of course because politics and commercialism are just tentacles of the same octopus (metaphorically speaking!) it didn't take long before the market was trying to cater to swing voters

They marketed to idealise individualist activites such as outdoor pursuits and have created a desirable image which the outer directed people then try to tap into. They then cash in on this new market

 

[~jet]

Individualism is packaged and sold to people as part of consumerism.

Precisely; it's not that it IS individualism, it just exploits the 'me me me' attitude of individualism for the gain of the few individuals at the expense of the many individuals.

 

[Kgal]

Precisely; it's not that it IS individualism, it just exploits the 'me me me' attitude of individualism for the gain of the few individuals at the expense of the many individuals.

Yes it does - by promoting the idea one can get happiness from outside of themselves. Hence the exploitation of an individual pursuing happiness by buying stuff.

 

[not sure]

Individualism is not the same as selfishness (the me me me attitude). Individualism is the belief that the rights of a human being are not subordinate to the rights of the community. An individualist may of his own volition make self-sacrificing choices but he rejects the community demanding his sacrifice.

People make choices. All sorts of factors influence them but ultimately they are responsible for their own actions. It's very fashionable to blame external factors for our poor choices but it never removes the responsibility from the shoulders of the individual.

 

[bickelz]

It's more that our consumerism is isolating us rather than making us Individualists. I think when she meant hyper-individualism has more to do with isolation.

 

[muir]

Individualism is not the same as selfishness (the me me me attitude). Individualism is the belief that the rights of a human being are not subordinate to the rights of the community. An individualist may of his own volition make self-sacrificing choices but he rejects the community demanding his sacrifice.

People make choices. All sorts of factors influence them but ultimately they are responsible for their own actions. It's very fashionable to blame external factors for our poor choices but it never removes the responsibility from the shoulders of the individual.

The 'me me me' attitude is a cultural one created by an economic system which is based upon competition not cooperation

Capitalism is a dog eat dog world, not only globally between competing countries but domestically as people compete over jobs, over places within heirarchies, over market share, over material wealth and over services such as healthcare

I believe in personal freedoms, which is why if i have to use labels i would call myself a 'libertarian socialist'.

I believe in personal responsibility, initiative and freedoms, but in order for that to truely happen people need to be given or not denied the tools to achieve this and they need to not be coralled into narrow modes of behaviour or mind sets such as those created by the restrictive capitalist system.

I don't think capitalism encourages responsibility which is why we have a 'nanny state', an aggressive litigation culture, specialisation and strict controls over what we can and can't do....for example we can't even smoke a naturally growing plant such as cannabis.

We are sent into a regimentalising education system from a young age that only narrowly informs us and is basically providing two main functions. One is to prepare the next generation of workers to get used to a 9-5 life of carrying out boring and uninspiring tasks and the other is to provide childcare so that both parents can go out and provide labour for the capitalist machine. The education system shapes people to fit roles and is not designed to create enquiring and inspired minds.

Capitalism tries hard to create an illusion of diversity but most media and political input is highly centralised. The same commercial interests control the news, music industry, film industry, pharmaceutical industry, weapons industry and two party political system. This is significant because these things provide us with much of our culture.

I don't think that capitalism really encourages initiative either. For example one of the most pressing concerns for our species at the moment is energy. We are addicted to oil and many wars are being fought over it. This is despite the fact that nature has provided us with natural sources of energy such as solar, wave and wind. The technology for these renewable energies has been largely suppressed by the dominant oil and motor industries who have bought up various patents on technology. We are reaching, if not already at peak oil (watch the prices go up and the conflict over resources intensify!) and it should be clear to people that our behaviour is not sustainable.

Some might argue that we as consumers are providing a demand for that oil, but that is not taking into effect the way the system works and the interwoven nature of government and private interests. For example in Britain our roads are totally choked with cars. We used to have an extensive and publically owned rail system which allowed people to travel anywhere in the country, cheaply. But in order to push oil and the motor industry, the government shut down the branch lines of the railways and they sold off the railways to private investors who obviously then raised prices to squeeze a profit out of it. The government is also able to influence the markets by taxing things they want to discourage and giving tax breaks to things they want to encourage.

Then there is psychological manipulation such as advertising and programming to make people buy products. Our Prime Minister at the time, Maggie Thatcher, even said publically: 'if you are still using public transport when you are 30 you are a failure', in order to boost the motor industry (and obviously the oil industry that fuels it). Thatcher privatised a lot of publically owned institutions including the national oil company...privatisation leads to obsession about profit margins which leads to corner cutting (gulf of mexico oil spill anyone?). Her financial policy, monetarism, proved disasterous for the British economy and it was only really rescued by the influx of North Sea oil (which belongs to Scotland anyway!). Her opinions ratings were crashing but she banged the war drum when the argentinians invaded the falklands and thanks to surface to air missiles bought from the USA, Britain was able to win the war. War is always used in capitalism to unite people and counter act the necessary forces of rebellion. Her privatisation of British industry gutted the industry from large parts of Britain leaving hundreds of thousands unemployed....the results of which we are now seeing in the form of alcohol, drug and welfare dependancy.

So as much as the capitalists like to put blame (and financial liability...bank bailout anyone?) on the consumer...this is really a big fat lie.

I don't think that capitalism encourages personal freedom much either. We are all bogged down in countless regulations and laws which coral us into prescribed modes of behaviour. Behaviour and culture is as a result very homogenised and lets face it largely shit. The interesting stuff comes from the people acting out of their own initiative and usually because they are reacting against the restraints of the established order.

To say that cooperative systems require self sacrifice is to totally overlook what capitalism requires. Capitalism requires daily sacrifice from its wage slaves who must get up and go to work everyday. They don't usually get the fruits of their labour...they usually only get a cut, called a 'wage'. the capitalist class take the lions share of the profits and recoup what they give away to the wage slaves through taxes, inflation and consumerism and other sharp practices such as mortgages, debts (interest) and pensions.

Capitalism requires constant sacrifice from people. Also the life of relative comfort....restrictive as it is, in the west comes at a price for the rest of humanity who provide our goods through their slave labour and provide our resources which we steal from their countries.

If you think you are free then try an experiment. Stop going to work for a year.....stop paying your mortgage/rent, stop paying your taxes and bills and stop sending your children to school.....see what happens

 

[Norton]

If you think you are free then try an experiment. Stop going to work for a year.....stop paying your mortgage/rent, stop paying your taxes and bills and stop sending your children to school.....see what happens

What do you mean by this? That people should get free housing, free services, free utilities, etc.?

I really don't see that having strong individuals, even eccentric ones, in a society necessarily isolates one from others or belies the possibility of a strong community. Indeed, it's the strong individuals who end up making society better. They're the one's with the strength to withstand the naysayers who denigrate new ideas and are afraid of change. I would posit that the real conspicuous consumers are the "sheep" of society, the targets who best respond to advertising, who watch television four or five hours per day, and who behave in predictable ways well understood by those who design marketing campaigns, political commercials, and shampoo bottles.

There are strong individuals in capitalist societies, in socialist societies, and even in communist societies (although these tend to die young).

 

[muir]

What do you mean by this? That people should get free housing, free services, free utilities, etc.?

I really don't see that having strong individuals, even eccentric ones, in a society necessarily isolates one from others or belies the possibility of a strong community. Indeed, it's the strong individuals who end up making society better. They're the one's with the strength to withstand the naysayers who denigrate new ideas and are afraid of change. I would posit that the real conspicuous consumers are the "sheep" of society, the targets who best respond to advertising, who watch television four or five hours per day, and who behave in predictable ways well understood by those who design marketing campaigns, political commercials, and shampoo bottles.

There are strong individuals in capitalist societies, in socialist societies, and even in communist societies (although these tend to die young).

Hi Norton

Thank goodness for strong individuals! They have often played a large part in reforming the regressive capitalist system!

I'd like to respond to your points in the 'That thing rich people do......' thread, but I'm gonna have to leave it there for tonight as it is late here

I want particularly to highlight some common ground i think we might share. For example, i too believe in personal freedoms and initiative. I want to see a society where these can enrich peoples lives and everyone can fulfill their potential...not one that is for the few at the expense of the many.

Good night for now and best wishes

 

[randomsomeone]

Some of the wordings in the OP were interesting....I had flashbacks to things I heard certain individuals observe probably 18 years ago. I suspect the trend has deepened greatly, which is not too shocking.

 

[not sure]

The 'me me me' attitude is a cultural one created by an economic system which is based upon competition not cooperation

Capitalism is a dog eat dog world, not only globally between competing countries but domestically as people compete over jobs, over places within heirarchies, over market share, over material wealth and over services such as healthcare

I believe in personal freedoms, which is why if i have to use labels i would call myself a 'libertarian socialist'.

I believe in personal responsibility, initiative and freedoms, but in order for that to truely happen people need to be given or not denied the tools to achieve this and they need to not be coralled into narrow modes of behaviour or mind sets such as those created by the restrictive capitalist system.

I don't think capitalism encourages responsibility which is why we have a 'nanny state', an aggressive litigation culture, specialisation and strict controls over what we can and can't do....for example we can't even smoke a naturally growing plant such as cannabis.

We are sent into a regimentalising education system from a young age that only narrowly informs us and is basically providing two main functions. One is to prepare the next generation of workers to get used to a 9-5 life of carrying out boring and uninspiring tasks and the other is to provide childcare so that both parents can go out and provide labour for the capitalist machine. The education system shapes people to fit roles and is not designed to create enquiring and inspired minds.

Capitalism tries hard to create an illusion of diversity but most media and political input is highly centralised. The same commercial interests control the news, music industry, film industry, pharmaceutical industry, weapons industry and two party political system. This is significant because these things provide us with much of our culture.

I don't think that capitalism really encourages initiative either. For example one of the most pressing concerns for our species at the moment is energy. We are addicted to oil and many wars are being fought over it. This is despite the fact that nature has provided us with natural sources of energy such as solar, wave and wind. The technology for these renewable energies has been largely suppressed by the dominant oil and motor industries who have bought up various patents on technology. We are reaching, if not already at peak oil (watch the prices go up and the conflict over resources intensify!) and it should be clear to people that our behaviour is not sustainable.

Some might argue that we as consumers are providing a demand for that oil, but that is not taking into effect the way the system works and the interwoven nature of government and private interests. For example in Britain our roads are totally choked with cars. We used to have an extensive and publically owned rail system which allowed people to travel anywhere in the country, cheaply. But in order to push oil and the motor industry, the government shut down the branch lines of the railways and they sold off the railways to private investors who obviously then raised prices to squeeze a profit out of it. The government is also able to influence the markets by taxing things they want to discourage and giving tax breaks to things they want to encourage.

Then there is psychological manipulation such as advertising and programming to make people buy products. Our Prime Minister at the time, Maggie Thatcher, even said publically: 'if you are still using public transport when you are 30 you are a failure', in order to boost the motor industry (and obviously the oil industry that fuels it). Thatcher privatised a lot of publically owned institutions including the national oil company...privatisation leads to obsession about profit margins which leads to corner cutting (gulf of mexico oil spill anyone?). Her financial policy, monetarism, proved disasterous for the British economy and it was only really rescued by the influx of North Sea oil (which belongs to Scotland anyway!). Her opinions ratings were crashing but she banged the war drum when the argentinians invaded the falklands and thanks to surface to air missiles bought from the USA, Britain was able to win the war. War is always used in capitalism to unite people and counter act the necessary forces of rebellion. Her privatisation of British industry gutted the industry from large parts of Britain leaving hundreds of thousands unemployed....the results of which we are now seeing in the form of alcohol, drug and welfare dependancy.

So as much as the capitalists like to put blame (and financial liability...bank bailout anyone?) on the consumer...this is really a big fat lie.

I don't think that capitalism encourages personal freedom much either. We are all bogged down in countless regulations and laws which coral us into prescribed modes of behaviour. Behaviour and culture is as a result very homogenised and lets face it largely shit. The interesting stuff comes from the people acting out of their own initiative and usually because they are reacting against the restraints of the established order.

To say that cooperative systems require self sacrifice is to totally overlook what capitalism requires. Capitalism requires daily sacrifice from its wage slaves who must get up and go to work everyday. They don't usually get the fruits of their labour...they usually only get a cut, called a 'wage'. the capitalist class take the lions share of the profits and recoup what they give away to the wage slaves through taxes, inflation and consumerism and other sharp practices such as mortgages, debts (interest) and pensions.

Capitalism requires constant sacrifice from people. Also the life of relative comfort....restrictive as it is, in the west comes at a price for the rest of humanity who provide our goods through their slave labour and provide our resources which we steal from their countries.

If you think you are free then try an experiment. Stop going to work for a year.....stop paying your mortgage/rent, stop paying your taxes and bills and stop sending your children to school.....see what happens

What does all of this have to with what I said?

Capitalism is a "dog eat dog" world.

It has been a "dog eat dog" world since we stepped out of "Eden".

We are sent into a regimentalising education system

Capitalism tries hard to create an illusion of diversity but most media and political input is highly centralised.

Then there is psychological manipulation such as advertising and programming to make people buy products.

What's stopping you from embarking on your own journey of self-education?
What's stopping you from providing alternative media if you think there is a need?
Who's holding a gun to your head and making you buy products you don't want?

I know. I know. The capitalists. We aren't free... ad nauseam.

Capitalism requires constant sacrifice from people

That's not just capitalism. That's life. I know. I know. The capitalists. We aren't free ad nauseam.

 

[bickelz]

It has been a "dog eat dog" world since we stepped out of "Eden".

No, it has been a dog eat cat world since we stepped out of eden. Now, with capitalism, we're experiencing people screw other people like never before. Sure, there have been wars in the past and there certainly are now but people are making it hard on others to live a life without financial burdens.

Instead of cooperating with each other for survival, we screw each other over so that we can have a bunch of shit. Society has become empty.

 

[not sure]

Instead of cooperating with each other for survival, we screw each other over so that we can have a bunch of shit. Society has become empty.

Capitalism made you screw other people over. Where is your responsibility for you own actions? I certainly haven't screwed anyone over.

Come closer. Let me tell you what my grandfather told me capitalism has done.

He was born in the early part of the last century and says that when he was a child people could only afford one good suit of clothes (their Sunday best) and one pair of shoes. Normally, they wore rags and went barefoot. When they had to go to town they would wake before the sun rose and walk for miles to meet transport which would take them to town. Once outside the town limits they would stop, go into the bushes and change from their rags to their Sunday best and shoes before proceeding into town. Now, my grandfather says that he still sees poor people but they have multiple, presentable outfits (including shoes), they are not malnourished and they don't work from dawn till dusk. That's the work of capitalism NOT any sort of collectivism or manna from heaven.

If people break laws and are nasty towards each other now it's because they choose to be. I will not be joining the hate the rich capitalist train. I'm not a jealous person. I'm too old to suddenly develop bad mind.

 

[muir]

What does all of this have to with what I said?.

I am not attacking you...i am attacking the idea of capitalism....i should be clearer about that really when i have these discussions

It has been a "dog eat dog" world since we stepped out of "Eden".

Not really. The worlds population was much smaller in hunter gatherer days so it is likely that there wasn't the level of conflict as there is now under capitalism and also that when there was conflict there was no where near the numbers affected....conflicts now affect millions of people at a time.

Also people were not atomised like they are now, they were living in tightly knit communities so they didn't have to compete every day of their lives....they worked together for the common good. The better off the community was, the better off they were as individuals.

What's stopping you from embarking on your own journey of self-education? "

I am on my own journey of self-education. I enjoy using the internet as a tool for learning and for swapping ideas and for testing my own.

What's stopping you from providing alternative media if you think there is a need?"

Nothing. The beauty of the internet is that anyone can be a journalist. If you post in enough places you can literally reach an audience of thousands without having even had to apply for a job at a single newspaper!

Concerning using mainstream media....this is all privately owned and highly centralised. A few major press agenices disseminate 'news' to papers and news channels which creates the illusion of diversity. To start up your own mainstream newspaper would cost an estimated

 

[muir]

Capitalism made you screw other people over. Where is your responsibility for you own actions? I certainly haven't screwed anyone over.

Come closer. Let me tell you what my grandfather told me capitalism has done.

He was born in the early part of the last century and says that when he was a child people could only afford one good suit of clothes (their Sunday best) and one pair of shoes. Normally, they wore rags and went barefoot. When they had to go to town they would wake before the sun rose and walk for miles to meet transport which would take them to town. Once outside the town limits they would stop, go into the bushes and change from their rags to their Sunday best and shoes before proceeding into town. Now, my grandfather says that he still sees poor people but they have multiple, presentable outfits (including shoes), they are not malnourished and they don't work from dawn till dusk. That's the work of capitalism NOT any sort of collectivism or manna from heaven.

If people break laws and are nasty towards each other now it's because they choose to be. I will not be joining the hate the rich capitalist train. I'm not a jealous person. I'm too old to suddenly develop bad mind.

It was capitalism that uprooted your anscestors and dumped them on a caribbean island (albeit a beautiful one) with nothing but rags to wear

It wasn't capitalism that stopped slavery and people working dawn to dusk it was enlightened individuals who stood AGAINST capitalism that stopped slavery despite capitalism. Now capitalism has just sourced out slavery to the sweatshops of asia and central america instead

You think since then capitalism has helped you?

Christ....if you think that progress over 300 years is people having more outfits of clothes to wear then you have very low expectations

If for the last 300 years you had been living under a libertarian socialist system we would have seen a hell of a lot more progress than that

 

[Faye]

Love, trust, truth, art, music and written language have taken a backseat to money and what it can do for us.

Money can buy all of these things except for truth. But money can help the pursuit of truth indirectly, so basically money can buy all of these things.

 

[Trifoilum]

........

Why does the second page of this topic suddenly changed into a tirade of political values?

*scratches head*

If the suggestion is that hyper individualism are only prevalent within one and only capitalist societies, I beg to differ. Individualism can and have prevailed, whether the society is capitalist or socialist. The society brought a set of rules and conventions and social orders, that people with hyper individualism (or to put in layman's term, greed/pride/gluttony) will always abuse it. :|

You think cooperation-based society is the best? Have you ever heard of 'social harmony'? and how it's used? :|
Oh, HI exists. Anywhere. :|

What we need to increase are tolerance and awareness, IMO.

 

[muir]

Money can buy all of these things except for truth. But money can help the pursuit of truth indirectly, so basically money can buy all of these things.

Money can't buy any of those things. The truth will always exist behind the illusion

 

[muir]

........

Why does the second page of this topic suddenly changed into a tirade of political values?

*scratches head*

If the suggestion is that hyper individualism are only prevalent within one and only capitalist societies, I beg to differ. Individualism can and have prevailed, whether the society is capitalist or socialist. The society brought a set of rules and conventions and social orders, that people with hyper individualism (or to put in layman's term, greed/pride/gluttony) will always abuse it. :|

You think cooperation-based society is the best? Have you ever heard of 'social harmony'? and how it's used? :|
Oh, HI exists. Anywhere. :|

What we need to increase are tolerance and awareness, IMO.

There ain't much social harmony in this capitalist world and where there is harmony there is people desensitised to their true human potential

Capitalism is against tolerance and awareness that's why there isn't as much as there should be. Capitalism relies on the innate decency of people to hold their rotten system together