Humanity and the Nature of Good vs Evil | INFJ Forum

Humanity and the Nature of Good vs Evil

Discussion in 'Philosophy and Religion' started by Truth Eternity, Jan 12, 2020.

Share This Page

Watchers:
This thread is being watched by 5 users.
More threads by Truth Eternity
  1. Truth Eternity

    Truth Eternity Community Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2018
    Threads:
    12
    Messages:
    235
    Featured Threads:
    8
    Likes Received:
    578
    Trophy Points:
    962
    Gender:
    Male
    MBTI:
    INFJ
    Enneagram:
    2w1
    Ever since I was old enough to wonder philosophical questions, I've always believed that humanity is naturally good. We have science and evolution that shows the cooperative nature of humanity in order to survive. We have the positive feeling we get when we do good for others. And for many like myself who were raised within a religous belief that we have one, benevolent god, we have the thought instilled that we are intentionally created to be good by some all-good being. However, I've never truly believed in the religion I was brought up in, as I've never believed in one king ruling all, the restrictions and rules set on us by said king, or that some all-good being would allow such evil to run rampant.

    And as of late, I've decided to dive fave-first into the thick of things, not letting my fear hold back my curiosity into the true nature of mankind.

    And what I've seen is just abhorrent. I've heard, seen, experienced, and learned experiences that brought me to the conclusion that humanity is neither all good nor all evil, rather a mixture of good humans and evil humans. People who want to live in a happy world and love spreading that dream to others to make real together, and people who are angry, self-centered, and want nothing but to get off on causing pain, evil, and chaos.

    This has lead me even further from our so called "god," who I believe is just a manifestation of the energy the world we live on provides and shares.

    However, it also added to another long-standing question I've been having for around a decade, "Is good really good, and is evil really evil?" I remember having a dream about 4-7 years ago, in which I played a character who was evil. In my dream, I had a team, and the good side had a team. Those teams, of course, represented all that we consider good and all that we consider evil.

    In that dream, my side, the evil side, saw the goodside as people who disliked us and who kept trying to take from us -- basically oppressors and colonialists. The good side saw us as the enemy, who wanted to take away their way of life and replace it with something they believed causes them suffering.

    Both sides had a clash of ideals, and saw the other side as oppressors, and believed that the other side's ideals caused them suffering. Both sides thought the other side was wrong.

    That dream has been on my mind ever since, since as we are all good (I'd imagine at least most of the people on these boards would be), how can we think we understand what we consider the opposite of us to be? How can we truly say, objectively, evil is wrong. We have to truly understand the beliefs and ideals of another to truly get them.

    As I say, "understanding is the glue that will bring everyone together."

    What are you thoughts?
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
    MoonFlier, Rit4lin and Hostarius like this.
  2. MoonFlier

    MoonFlier Permanent Fixture

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2019
    Threads:
    14
    Messages:
    944
    Featured Threads:
    5
    Likes Received:
    5,001
    Trophy Points:
    1,002
    Gender:
    Female
    MBTI:
    INFJ
    Evil can run the array of colors when defining if a person or act falls under it.

    I never believed children could be evil until I met one specific individual who was literally out to burn the world.
    That child modified my way of thinking. (I later learned this child had a rough upbringing and so probably wasn't born that way.)

    For your point of discussion, please define the terms of good and evil.
    Give examples.
     
    #2 MoonFlier, Jan 12, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2020
    Truth Eternity and Hostarius like this.
  3. OP
    Truth Eternity

    Truth Eternity Community Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2018
    Threads:
    12
    Messages:
    235
    Featured Threads:
    8
    Likes Received:
    578
    Trophy Points:
    962
    Gender:
    Male
    MBTI:
    INFJ
    Enneagram:
    2w1
    What I meant as good and evil is our current understanding of it. Or from the understanding from us who consider ourselves good. I don't give a specific definition as the enitre point of this post is to question whether we truly know what good and evil are.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
    MoonFlier and Hostarius like this.
  4. Rit4lin

    Rit4lin Community Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2020
    Threads:
    1
    Messages:
    124
    Featured Threads:
    1
    Likes Received:
    517
    Trophy Points:
    902
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Middle Earth
    MBTI:
    INFP
    Enneagram:
    5w9
    To refer to your part of moral conflict amidst religion, one philosopher I know on the matter is St Augustine, I'm not sure if you've heard on him - if not I'd read up on him after this for a more detailed account of his belief. But essentially he posited that God did not create evil because evil doesn't 'exist', it is simply the term used to describe that which has a lack of good where good should be. However that's as much as I will say on the matter being an atheist, I'm a bit biased when it comes to matters of religion.

    However I think as much are there are blurred lines between the definitions of good and evil as you've said - that to one side they may be the good and righteous, and their opponent the enemy - there are things that are evil for evils sake. Things such as torture, human trafficking, slavery.. Some would say killing another is evil, but then it comes down to context and subject viewing. Is killing someone that threatens another's life evil? If someone were to go back in time and kill baby Hitler/Stalin, does the future justify the act? I like a quote from the Witcher series by Andrzej Sapkowski: 'Evil is Evil. Lesser, greater, middling… Makes no difference. The degree is arbitary. The definition’s blurred. If I’m to choose between one evil and another… I’d rather not choose at all.' (Blasted phone cut out parts thank fuck for edit)
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
    Truth Eternity and MoonFlier like this.
  5. OP
    Truth Eternity

    Truth Eternity Community Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2018
    Threads:
    12
    Messages:
    235
    Featured Threads:
    8
    Likes Received:
    578
    Trophy Points:
    962
    Gender:
    Male
    MBTI:
    INFJ
    Enneagram:
    2w1
    I think you got cut off at the end of your first and second paragraphs.

    On topic, You said, "Things such as torture, human trafficking, slavery.. Some would say killing another is evil, but then it comes down to context and subject viewing. Is killing someone that threatens another's life evil?" We believe those to be evil, but what does evil believe? My point is that I don't think we can say what's good and what's evil unless we are, ourselves, both. But we are good, and others are evil. I think we need someone who is both to stand as a middle ground, as a glue to bind the two opposing sides together. That's just my current belief on the matter.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
    Rit4lin likes this.
  6. Rit4lin

    Rit4lin Community Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2020
    Threads:
    1
    Messages:
    124
    Featured Threads:
    1
    Likes Received:
    517
    Trophy Points:
    902
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Middle Earth
    MBTI:
    INFP
    Enneagram:
    5w9
    Funnily enough, according to Jungian theory we are both so we are all as equally qualified so to speak on the matter. According to Jung, we all have a 'shadow' self, which is the aspect of ourselves we keep repressed along with all of its negative traits; yet are aspects we are able to recognise in others. No one is wholly good, nor wholly evil because we all contain this. Going by Jungian theory, your 'persona' - the mask you have on when interacting with others such as on this site - are the aspects of yourself that are socially acceptable and which you present to others. So for your wants, right now everyone stands in the middle ground as the glue - if you want a being that is only wholly one or the other you may have to find an angel or demon
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
    Cornerstone and Truth Eternity like this.
  7. Rit4lin

    Rit4lin Community Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2020
    Threads:
    1
    Messages:
    124
    Featured Threads:
    1
    Likes Received:
    517
    Trophy Points:
    902
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Middle Earth
    MBTI:
    INFP
    Enneagram:
    5w9
    Of course I'm sure there's people on here who actually have an academic background in psychology and can speak better on the matter of Jung, I still have a lot of reading to do regarding him
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
    Truth Eternity likes this.
  8. OP
    Truth Eternity

    Truth Eternity Community Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2018
    Threads:
    12
    Messages:
    235
    Featured Threads:
    8
    Likes Received:
    578
    Trophy Points:
    962
    Gender:
    Male
    MBTI:
    INFJ
    Enneagram:
    2w1
    Personally, I believe, as there are multiple colors to the light spectrum, there are multiple levels of good and evil humans. I believe that we have an almost wholly good side, and an almost wholly evil side, and then we have what's inbetween. The majority of individuals, probably about 30%, would around the middle of the inbetween, while the rest of the inbetween are about 60% of the population who varies in the leves there. And on the extremeties, we have 10% of the population who either wishes and actively enacts things that are wholly good or wholly evil. I also believe that it is not good or evil that is bad, but it is the lack of understanding that causes conflict, which leads to suffering for both sides.
    Again, Carl Jung is one person and is good so I don't believe he can tell what is good and what is evil. That's why we need a bridge, at least that's my personal beliefs.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
    Rit4lin likes this.
  9. Rit4lin

    Rit4lin Community Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2020
    Threads:
    1
    Messages:
    124
    Featured Threads:
    1
    Likes Received:
    517
    Trophy Points:
    902
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Middle Earth
    MBTI:
    INFP
    Enneagram:
    5w9
    So to go by your theory, how would you apply that to terrorism acts? Like 9/11, the Manchester Arena attack, or the French '15 attacks
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  10. The_Mysterious_Stranger

    The_Mysterious_Stranger Community Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2016
    Threads:
    19
    Messages:
    314
    Featured Threads:
    6
    Likes Received:
    873
    Trophy Points:
    637
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    A dream within a dream
    MBTI:
    INFJ
    Enneagram:
    146 so/sx
    This is the Jean-Jaques Rousseau vs. Thomas Hobbes debate. I don't think there's a clear answer to this question. A lot of behavior depends on IQ, which is 80% genetic. The personality of criminals tend to be extroverted, low contentiousness, high testosterone. Criminals tend to have IQs in the 80-125 range, but mostly low-average range (80-100). For example, the Parkland school shooter had a low IQ (fetal alcohol syndrome). The Sandy Hook shooter was on the autism spectrum and probably had a lower IQ. It also depends on the environment / family environment. As Hobbes and Rousseau have written, conflicts have revolved around envy, boredom, resentment, and other negative emotions. If nations like the US invest in organizations like Planned Parenthood, people are more likely to be raised to be good people / citizens.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
    #10 The_Mysterious_Stranger, Jan 13, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2020
  11. Cornerstone

    Cornerstone Well-known member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2012
    Threads:
    22
    Messages:
    1,999
    Featured Threads:
    1
    Likes Received:
    1,489
    Trophy Points:
    777
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    London
    MBTI:
    Pisces
    Enneagram:
    Metal Goat
    I like that someone mentioned Jung. We don't do that nearly enough here. Answer to Job is the essay to read by him on this topic.

    Personally, I see it as an evolutionary thing. Are cats evil? Okay, bad example because...yes...but, then, take any carnivorous predator and ask the same thing. A lion will play with his cub and even risk his life to save him from stampeding buffalo but lions will also kill the last guy's cubs (sometimes preemptively with stampeding buffalo).

    So, then, there are plenty of stories of step parents treating their non biological kids worse. Maybe they don't kill them but it's in the same ballpark. Then there are those who raise them as their own and that's probably a move away from the animal mentality.

    I suppose what I'm getting at is that being an animal is reality, and animals can be humane. However, denying one's roots in the animal world, and acting as though only humans are capable of 'goodness', means that 'badness' will erupt spontaneously and uncontrollably or be kept on the DL and be more pathological and compulsive for it.

    So, yeah, basically the IQ thing...I think, maybe. Only I daresay there are more factors than just IQ at work (or play). I suppose...consciousness generally. It requires a certain amount of intelligence to realise the extent of your own unconsciousness I suppose. Is consciousness the space between emotion and action? What separates a person acting on emotion e.g. a crime of passion and an animal acting on instinct?
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  12. The_Mysterious_Stranger

    The_Mysterious_Stranger Community Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2016
    Threads:
    19
    Messages:
    314
    Featured Threads:
    6
    Likes Received:
    873
    Trophy Points:
    637
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    A dream within a dream
    MBTI:
    INFJ
    Enneagram:
    146 so/sx
    Psychopaths / sociopaths often have brain damage, under the influence of drugs, high testosterone levels.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  13. The_Mysterious_Stranger

    The_Mysterious_Stranger Community Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2016
    Threads:
    19
    Messages:
    314
    Featured Threads:
    6
    Likes Received:
    873
    Trophy Points:
    637
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    A dream within a dream
    MBTI:
    INFJ
    Enneagram:
    146 so/sx
    It amazes me we had debates on this topic early on in this forum's existence, and after it, there were mass shootings in the news. Crazy.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
Loading...

Share This Page