How is Obamacare Working Out for You? | INFJ Forum

How is Obamacare Working Out for You?

Discussion in 'News and Politics' started by problemz, Dec 31, 2013.

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  1. problemz

    problemz Community Member

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    I work as a tenured prof at a state university so am fairly well-protected. You never know what might happen next, but whatever it is, it will affect others first. That said, I didn't vote for Obama. I thought his plans would hurt small businesses. I listen to Fox. But I have many friends who are small-time artists and hustlers and photographers all of whom voted for Obama. Now they say their plans cost thrice as much as they used to and they feel fooled. However, they are not becoming Republicans. They are just angry at the whole system. I find this kind of dumb because I see capitalism as a good thing. If business is booming and companies can pay their taxes, everyone benefits.

    I think we probably needed someone at the helm with more of a political legacy behind them. Obama thought he would wade in and change everything for the better. As if that one guy had all the answers. He had just caused lots of weird problems.

    There is a local restaurant that closed down today. It had sixty employees. I liked the place because it had neat aquariums filled with sharks. I like sharks because I am a capitalist. It was called the Neptune Diner (Oneonta, NY). A friend of mine sent me an email about why the employer closed it down:


    "At the close of business today the Neptune Diner will be closing its doors for good. The Neptune employs 60+ people which puts them over the 50 employee limit that makes employers pay for insurance for the employees..... this cost was going to be close to $180K / yr that was the final straw for Paul & Tasi Karabinis. The Neptune's weekly payroll was in the neighborhood of $20k, when their accountant told them the ins would cost close to $13k/month more, Paul at age 65 had a tough decision to make. Very sad to see in our small town how Obamacare will play out…. the salaries of 60+ in Oneonta is a big hit & very sad."

    Whatever. It's just one place. And the media keeps saying that this is what won't happen. Even the local paper hasn't said that this happened because of Obamacare. It's a Democratic paper and they endorsed Obama so they can't afford to tell this news. But if this plays out across the nation, then what? I suppose we will end up with the few prosperous chains that survive this hit: Wal-Mart, Taco Bell, and so on. Local manufacturers will shut down, etc.

    I used to be an idealist but now that I'm older I don't see idealism as a good thing. It costs a lot, and it doesn't pay out.
     
  2. bagelriffic

    bagelriffic Community Member

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    Ya its definitely obamas fault this countries in the shitter.
     
  3. the

    the Si master race.
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    It doesn't even start til tomorrow as far as getting the benefits of healthcare, no? Up til tomorrow it shouldn't be working at all.

    how is idealism not a good thing? What are your goals in life if they are not the ideals? Is your goal to live in a used toilet instead?
     
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    #3 the, Dec 31, 2013
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  4. Skarekrow

    Skarekrow ~~DEVIL~~

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    Wow...do you even hear yourself? “I don’t see idealism as a good thing. It costs a lot, and it doesn’t pay out.”
    You Sir, are what is wrong with the system if not the world in general - putting money before the welfare of others.
    Your friends' insurance plans cost 3 times as much because they were being swindled out of their money by the insurance companies...they still are, except now that price is being equally distributed with the ACA. If they have really gone up as much as you say they have then they owned the absolute trash of heath insurance, with so many stipulations on what gets paid and not paid (in the companies favor of course) that they would be lucky if they paid anything....once again, someone, probably the CEO of the insurance company, decided to put money first....just like they did with all his pals to fix the market back in the early 80’s when everything was deregulated thanks to Reagan because he decided to put money in front of idealism.
    What is idealism....the thought that we could have a better life for everyone? And do you honestly think you aren’t already subsidizing those workers at Wal-Mart, Taco Bell, etc.? They may work two of those jobs and still need SNAP assistance. Did you know that Wal-Mart had a bin for it’s OWN EMPLOYEES for the Thanksgiving holiday where the other employees could donate food? So instead of actually PAYING them a LIVING WAGE....they ask their own employees to take on that burden....real fucking nice.
    You are an idiot if you think that any president we elect in this day and age is the one calling the shots...Rep. or Dem.
    We were already paying for those with no insurance before the ACA....let me spell it out for you -
    Someone comes to the ER with no insurance because they can’t afford it...
    The hospital has to raise the price for everyone else to cover the cost of those who can’t afford their care...
    So those with insurance see their premiums rise in turn to cover the cost of the extremely high bills passes on to them from the hospital.
    I.e.- You are still paying for the poor and indignant population....only now, with the ACA they are trying to spread that huge cost out over everyone (not just those with good insurance ((not the trash your friends had - what you had))) so everyone can pay less. It isn’t all that simple, and it isn’t working fully yet....that will take some years probably. Tell your friends to go on the ACA website and see what plans are on there...I bet they find the same, if not better, than they had before, for the same price, give or take a little.
    Nothing has really changed dude....the insurance companies are still the ones you have insurance through....not the govt.
    But now there is some market and health care regulation....so people are not bankrupted by medical bills, and the insurance companies cannot just raise your premiums because they need a new yacht.
    And who refers to their so-called “friends” as “small time hustlers” anyhow?
    Doesn’t see idealism as a good thing?! WTF?
    That’s perverted.
     
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    #4 Skarekrow, Dec 31, 2013
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  5. Skarekrow

    Skarekrow ~~DEVIL~~

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    [MENTION=4235]problemz[/MENTION]
    Besides....did you know that the ACA was a Republican plan a few years back? Then when Obama passes it all of the sudden it’s called “Obama-care” and is labeled “socialism” and is called evil, etc....
    Did you think the insurance companies weren’t already the “death-panels”?
    How many stories need to be told of people cut from their insurance because they get cancer, or the cost becomes to much to be profitable for them only to see that supposedly “insured” person die. Sounds like a “death-panel” to me.
    They NEEDED to be regulated....they were out of control.
     
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  6. Rcs6r

    Rcs6r Must be the feeling~
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    My current plan is being cancelled and I get to choose a new one that's probably more expensive and less efficient. Hooray!
     
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  7. OP
    problemz

    problemz Community Member

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    Reagan had a law that said anyone can go to tue emergency room. I have. It's free if you're broke. The yearly cost was 35 billion. Bamcare will cost a trillion a year. Or more. Plus it will wreck job prospects for youth.
     
  8. Lerxst

    Lerxst Well-known member

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    I don't know who's more at fault, the so-called "Liberals" who voted for Obama, or the Faux-News-watching zombies that are gullible enough to believe TV (We'll get in to the whole issue of, perhaps the problems this country face are due to the so-called "educators" like yourself believing the crap Murdoch shovels them, in another post). I'd expect the one group to veto and always act against anything resembling a Liberal plan. But the other group shows how naive and gullible they are to believe that anything they can say, do or vote for in this climate makes any difference.

    Chris Hedges already pointed out the fact that the Liberals have failed this country; the Affordable Care Act is just an extension of that failure as far as I'm concerned. Unlike, ya know... the rest of the developed fucking world, we've failed at every turn to create and implement the ideal "Liberal" plan of Universal Healthcare. Instead, we're stuck this Conservative brain-child of a Healthcare reform that Mr. Republican-Light Obama backed all the way into law.

    I don't mind paying taxes to support programs that could help people, even if it means paying slightly more (which, by the way, a Universal Plan would not... just look at other countries' finances for the proof). The only thing this plan does though is force money from my pocket to give to those poor, helpless private corporations that only have a few billion dollars to spare. I was 100% against this plan from the start and seeing how much it will now cost me to get insurance so that I can pay a company that wasn't receiving my money before, just infuriates me further!
     
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  9. just me

    just me GONE

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    My health insurance for myself was $750 a month and the wife's was $702. End of October it went to $1200 and the wife's to $898, BUT they said we could swap to Obamacare. I raised each of our deductibles from $3500 each to $7500 each and it dropped mine to $900 and the wife's to $400 plus a month.

    To swap to Obamacare would be cheaper, but we lose coverage when we are growing older and needing it the most. Staying with the same insurance company, we have to accept HMO and lose our PPO, for instance. The devil's in the details.

    I like chess, but you had best break out a big can of patience to fill out an application online for another insurance company. First thing I read is mail-order meds. What? Is healthcare going to be like disabled vets are sometimes treated? Have until the 15th to join up for February, as the time has passed for January.

    The numbers aren't there. People are not trusting Obamacare by the hoards they were expecting. Low income can get help on their new rates, but IRS is in control of that. We already have too much government. Congress and the Senate exempted themselves, from what I heard. WHY?

    Adele had it right: rolling in the deep. Looking at Kerry and Obama's track records across the globe, our own are not the only ones that do not trust him. I don't think ANYBODY can figure out what he is doing, but I'll keep it to myself what it is leading to. Blowback? Naw. Trying to downsize America to make way for a more acceptable world governance. America needs a break, anyway. Put her in harbor, but that is not what great ships are made for.
     
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  10. Skarekrow

    Skarekrow ~~DEVIL~~

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    Firstly...yes, you are correct...there is a law that states that. Being in the health care field I should know....if you are in an emergency medical situation then yes...they will treat you. But here is what they mean by treat.
    You are medically stabilized.
    Just so long as you don’t die in the next 12 hours or so after being discharged they are home free.
    But get this...they don’t have to follow that law if the hospital doesn’t participate in Medicare....so some of those really nice hospitals for people who can afford it CAN and DO turn dying people away LEGALLY because they don’t have the ability to pay.
    And you are lucky that you didn’t have to pay....because the hospitals will still come after you regardless of your ability to pay or not...they cannot put you in jail for it, but they can still take you to court and garnish your wages. For someone who works at Wal-Mart and has two kids...someone who already cannot afford insurance and who’s disgustingly well-off company does not provide health-care - that can be devastating.
    Until the ACA changed those loopholes....they can still come after you to pay, but they cannot deny you care...the mother of two can find insurance, and if she can’t afford it then we have subsidies in place to help...so if you wish to get angry at anyone...get upset at Wal-Mart or the other companies who can barely pay their employees, much less pay for health insurance.
    But wait! It’s those very subsides that are the problem you say?!
    About half of those come in the form of projected savings through Medicare payments to hospitals and insurers....shows like Fox News like to claim that's a cut in Medicare...lol.....no, a cut would say - “We are cutting X amount, deal with it”. If there are no savings here, then the money doesn’t exist here. Nice spin, but blatantly false.
    Another quarter is offset by a tax on medical device and drug company manufacturers...I don’t know if you have checked lately, but they have been gouging the American public for YEARS. When drug X costs $0.06 per pill in Canada or elsewhere in the world....somehow the average person in the US pays $6.00 a pill....hmmmm....I have NO sympathy for them whatsoever....and since the ACA regulates their prices somewhat now...they can lie in the grave they dug. I’ll throw the first handful of dirt...fuck those guys. The other is a jump in payroll tax on those making more than $250,000.00 a year or more...so yes, all you sad people living in your McMansions will have to cough up just a little bit more. The MIT economist who helped develop the law estimates a SAVINGS of $100 Billion over the next decade and a Trillion after that.
    Reagan’s law (EMTALA) was necessary because of his OWN deregulation spree...he gave the green light to the hospitals and the insurance companies (and the airlines, the colleges, the oil companies, and the banks, the list goes on for quite some time) to go ahead and charge you whatever they thought they could get away with...and for years they have. Until once again, legislation HAD to be passed to once again rein in the greedy hands grasping at the the last few crumbs in the cookie jar.
    Secondly...I’m not sure where you got your numbers, but according to the American Hospital Association, in 2011 the cost of uncompensated care cost us $41.1 Billion. (that was their latest report BTW...lol) From 2000 until now those costs have DOUBLED! INSANE!
    In 1983, the cost was $6.1 Billion...so from then until now...that is a 583% rise in the costs passed onto YOU the insurance owner. Has the income of the average American risen 583% since 1983?
    That is part of what the new law does...it regulates costs for the consumer...so first and foremost, people can afford it.
    If your choices for certain things go down, then that is the small price to pay...the new law also insures that they don’t reduce those choices to the point of no choice at all...working in the OR, I see it...we have so many choices of things like - what total knee would you like? DePuy? BioMet? Zimmer? ConforMIS? Wright? Maxx? Smith-Nephew? Do you get my point or shall I go on? If you took all those companies and said - Give me a total knee that works and lasts the longest and is the least expensive with data to back it up...and then you said - one of you manufactures will get the contract for the next 2 or 5 or however many years...do you have any clue how much money you would save getting your knee done?! Right now, there is no real price competition between the companies like that...they have all price-fixed themselves into place. Besides, you didn’t really have a choice before...and that is my point...if the insurance companies didn’t want to pay for something - too fucking bad.
    Have you ever tried getting them to pay for something they didn’t want to pay for? It’s laughable.
    Now...there is law in place to regulate that.
    And no, I have ZERO sympathy for those that have to pay a little bit more so that people can have access to health care.
    We don’t get tax subsides that the rich get...so go cry somewhere else about it.
    I make an okay wage (nowhere near $250,000 lolololol)...if I have to pay a bit more in taxes, etc...then so be it...that is part of being a caring human being.
    If you still think that it’s too expensive for you, you should do some moral searching firstly...secondly, fight to cut spending from our bloated military budget...or perhaps all the subsides that the oil conglomerates get...or big Pharma....or the NFL....or any number of groups, who have way beyond more than enough in profits to make tax subsides seem obscene. Fight to end those.
    We could use the money for programs that actually help people stay ALIVE.
    As far as job prospects for youth...Bush already fucked that one up when they crashed the economy in 2008...the jobs that didn’t go overseas had deep cuts, and then when we were bent over a barrel, they handed us the same job for a quarter of the pay. What job prospects? And how is the ACA doing away with them?
    You can stay on your parents insurance now until you are 26 now...and guess what...if you still don’t have a job, you don’t have to buy health insurance. How is that destroying prospects for them?
    If anything it is adding stabilization to the heath-care job market which is predicted to grow faster than the US economy and accounts for 1 out of every 6 new jobs. They aren’t going to cut positions when the baby-boomers are coming into age when they will need more intensive health care...the numbers just don’t add up.

    I’m not saying the ACA is the greatest thing ever....but it fixed a lot of issues.
    I personally would have loved to have seen a single-payer plan...but the insurance and health-care lobby would have never allowed that.
     
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    #10 Skarekrow, Jan 1, 2014
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2014
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  11. Skarekrow

    Skarekrow ~~DEVIL~~

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    Like I said above...I would have loved to have gone with a single-payer plan.
    What we really need are the fucking lobbyists out of Washington.
    But...as much as I dislike the health-care lobby, (especially working in health care) I have to say that there are some much needed fixes in the ACA.
    Hopefully one day we will get it right...though I wouldn’t bet money on it.
     
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  12. OP
    problemz

    problemz Community Member

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    I liked your response Skarecrow.

    :m125:
     
  13. OP
    problemz

    problemz Community Member

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    Many doctors think the plan is a mess. Many economics think it will cost far more than what they say. It is always hard to know who is spinning what. I once had a kidney stone removed and stayed overnight in a hospital in Oregon. This cost 16 thousand dollars. They did remove it. Then they tried to collect. They gave up after a few months. I kept saying, I can't pay 16 thousand dollars. I would rather that you would have just put me to death (Oregon has the right to die, but it's complicated as you have to get a doctor's signature saying that's the best plan for you). Or that's how I understood it ca. 1999.

    Ben Carson is dead set against Bumcare. He thinks it will collapse the whole medical field in the USA and do nothing for anyone but raise prices.

    It's nice to hear of someone inside a hospital who likes the program.
     
  14. Skarekrow

    Skarekrow ~~DEVIL~~

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    This is how the ACA became law...it was group circle-jerk the whole way around....you can’t just blame one man.
    [​IMG]

    As much as I despise congress for being out of touch with the American people...I still think the ACA has fixed very important loopholes. I hope...and I know some of you will disagree with me on this - that it is the first step to true universal healthcare, a single-payer system.
    I have a very tiny violin for all the Doctors @problemz, I know why they dislike it, they think they will lose money...and you know what? They are probably right...there are some Doctors who are paid what they are worth in my opinion...having assisted with surgery for the last 10 years or so, and worked in the ER before that, I can tell you there are some who are not paid enough! But...there are some that I wouldn’t let make my 7-layer burrito at Taco Bell...and they certainly don’t deserve the pay they receive. You can really tell after a while who had everything handed to them (and still do), and who were the ones with the drive and the passion, who worked hard to get where they are. So I take the opinion of Doctors very lightly when it is something non-medical...in fact most of them are quite obvious to how the real world functions...I would label some socially-retarded...I certainly wouldn’t take economic advice from most of them - especially when they have something they could lose in the deal....of course they aren’t going to like it.
    You know what? If there becomes a shortage of Doctors because of it then I say “good”.
    Then maybe we can help fund the medical careers of men and women who really wish to be Doctors but never had those opportunities handed to them...people who are really passionate about helping others and didn’t just go into it because Daddy was a Doctor, or, you can make a shit-load of money.
    You see, when money becomes your first priority then this is how we get into situations like we have now...had the industry (the hospitals, the banks, the drug companies, etc.) not been deregulated, then I doubt that we would have been this bad off.
    When a medical bill can cause someone...and this is someone considered “middle-class”....when it can cause them to have to file bankruptcy...perhaps on someone who isn’t even still alive...when the debt collectors actually FORCE the debtor to take such measures just because someone was ill or injured, then there is something perverse with the system.
    You say - idealism costs too much...
    I say - our society should be better than that...
    We should never hang a price tag on the head of a man, woman, or child...especially not when the insurance (who consider you a cost to payout ratio and nothing more...they only care if you die because they lose your money) and health-care industry (bitches to the insurance racket) are consistently making huge profits every. single. year.
     
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    #14 Skarekrow, Jan 2, 2014
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  15. OP
    problemz

    problemz Community Member

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    I'm in favor of profit, as I think it's a noble motive to want to pay for one's house, one's family, one's taxes. It's wrong for lazy people to steal such things from those with a work ethic. I lived in Finland for many years and it's true that the doctors there were paid scarcely more than the secretaries due to taxation rates that went up to 90% and higher. They didn't mind. But most of them spent five years working in the states or in the Arab states to make a pile big enough to build themselves a nice dacha on a lake. There were also private doctors. I assume that almost everything we are talking about is bullshit. There is a relatively new book by Harry Frankfurter (retired philosopher prof at Princeton - his book published in 2005), who writes,

    Frankfurter on Bullshit, p. 22:

    "The realms of advertising and of public relations, and the nowadays closely related realm of politics, are replete with instances of bullshit so unmitigated that they can serve as the most indisputable and classic paradigms of the concept."

    I would add journalism or literary criticism in any leftist periodical or newspaper, facebook post, or writing whatsoever (probably it even appears in the diary notes of leftists as they try to convince themselves of their paradigm). However, I don't regard your two posts here as bullshit because you have empirical grounding in the field, and real experience, and you compare what doctors do to what minimum wage workers do at Taco Bell (some argue that Moe's is far superior if you like Mexican from a chain).

    Remember that it wasn't entirely a circle-jerk with everyone involved. Republicans voted UNIFORMLY against the bill, while Democrats voted UNIFORMLY for it. So it's an entirely Democratic bill. Doctors have very expensive educations, and must devote about ten years of their lives to getting that education. Finland makes the education free. You are even paid to go to school by the Finnish state. However, very few get the chance to go to medical school there. Getting into any university is a one in ten chance. (They only have eight.) That's the other side of the socialist system. It doesn't allow for true competition.

    I like competitition. I think it brings out the best in people so long as the competition is regulation by rules of Christian fairness as outlined by the ten commendments (sic).

    I've enjoyed hearing of your empirical experience. I wish another doctor or nurse would weigh in. All those that I discuss this with are disgusted by ACA. Not because it doesn't have single payer, but because it's going to breathe too much on the back of the necks of the medical field, and politicize it unnecessarily. Obama thinks the extreme elderly should give the young people a chance. But he also wants the young to pay for this, but then he doesn't want to lose his voters, so he doesn't want them to pay for it. He wants to have his cake and eat it, too. Ultimately it's just going to unbalance even more the overall debt situation and drive our credit down vis a vis Standard and Poor's, and make the dollar (he keeps printing them) even more devalued until we are overtaken by the yen.

    Like it or not, there is competition. The world is set up that way. We might as well recognize this.
     
  16. OP
    problemz

    problemz Community Member

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    Keeping up with the Obama administration's lies and miscalculations is a full-time job. One of the biggest miscalculations was that they thought that emergency room visits by the uninsured under Reagan's law were such a massive problem that they needed a patch to fix this, so they turned to the Massachusetts law that Romney had vomited forth. Romneycare originally did bring down costs for one year, but then costs have ballooned in subsequent years. A similar law in Oregon has mushroomed, leaving massive cost overruns. Obamacare targets the approximately 50 billion in cost overruns that Reagan's law made possible. Now just to orchestrate the patch requires 250 billion. So it costs five times the original price. Plus, more people than ever are going to visit emergency rooms, because it's easier than trying to see a personal physician. It's very difficult even in my rural area to see anyone within a two or three month range. If you have a real problem, you must go to emergency care. There are a few doctors that don't have many visitors. There's a gay doctor who's dying of AIDS who doesn't have much of a backlog in patients. I used to see him, but he's now so sick he is almost never there. And there's an Indian guy who I go to but who has weird English to say the least. All the white male doctors and the one Vietnamese fellow are almost impossible to see. So emergency care is the only available alternative. This is expected to get far worse as many more people flood into the emergency rooms. There was a recent article in Science Magazine that focuses on the research done into this via a Harvard study group. That has been broken down into somewhat intelligible English by an article in Forbes: http://www.forbes.com/sites/theapot...-undermining-central-rationale-for-obamacare/

    It's hard to know what's what, because Forbes would certainly not spin the news in the direction of a pleasant acceptance of Obamacare. It's very hard to find reliable data that is also neutral about Obama. So it's important to research both sides, and realize that this enormous new law will probably never get settled. It's 3000 pages in length. I tried to read it but couldn't understand the wording. Meanwhile, Justice Sotomayor has issued an injunction that blocks the mandate that says that Catholic hospitals and institutions must distribute birth control products. Obama is appealing that.
     
  17. OP
    problemz

    problemz Community Member

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    Meanwhile, Obama's poll numbers are now down to 37% and dwindling. It seems now that everything he touches turns to fool's gold.
     
  18. Tin Man

    Tin Man "a respectable amount of screaming"

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    Obamacare hasn't done anything for me. That may be because I don't live in America.

    Thanks a lot Obama.
     
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  19. Stu

    Stu .
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    I am a working stiff, I have a job that provides health benefits and it has not changed much since Obama became pres. it is a little more expensive. But I keep the job because of the benefits. One of my hopes is that in a few years our little family will be able to buy private insurance and I can stop working like a fucking dog. (I sprained my ankle for the second time in two years just before christmas trying to get everything done so i could take a couple of weeks off and visit my 87 year old mom...and i turn 54 next week)

    I was not going to post in this thread but I logged into face book and my hs prom date had posted the following

    I took heart in that.
     
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  20. Skarekrow

    Skarekrow ~~DEVIL~~

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    It’s blatantly obvious that you are not a fan of Obama or the ACA....so why pretend like you are researching both sides?
    You get your news from Fox...
    You ignore any of the good things that it will fix (even when pointed out to you)...
    You have said that it’s an idealist vision that costs too much...

    Need I remind you of Frankfurter on Bullshit p. 22?

    Recent studies have shown that when presented with FACTUAL information, people ignore what goes against their own beliefs and actually DOUBLE-DOWN their original argument, even though they may be completely false. Their own ideology gets in the way learning new information, instead they continue to act and believe foolishly even in the face of fact.

    Just saying...
    Why don’t you rename the thread - Why I hate Obama, and why I think Obama-care sucks.
    Quit pretending to have an open mind about it.

    I don’t mean too sound too aggressive...but maybe I don’t get you I guess.
     
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