How do/don't you rationalize God | Page 8 | INFJ Forum

How do/don't you rationalize God

Discussion in 'Philosophy and Religion' started by Lerxst, Jul 1, 2013.

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  1. Martinville

    Martinville Regular Poster

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    I am pretty sure God exists, emotionally and scientifically. I find it hard to explain it emotionally, but scientifically it is quite easy. Just ask yourself the question "where did DNA come from?" And consider that there is no known natural system creating it. As a programmer I admire the complexity of biological systems. There is no simple lifeform, that is an absurd thought.
     
  2. the

    the Si master race.
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    Chocolate chip cookies give me a lot of energy, so... you may be on to something.
     
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  3. Matt3737

    Matt3737 Similes are like songs in love.

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    You can, but you'd only be telling a half-truth. You begin with the premise that God can be anything so he can be chocolate chip cookies, but not exclusively chocolate chip cookies because the initial premise still holds that he can be more than just chocolate chip cookies.

    Or on the other hand, you just accept that God is only and exclusively manifest as chocolate chip cookies and you are adamantly opposed to alternate definitions of God.
     
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  4. SolitaryMystic

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    God, I love God threads!! (...humour intended) :)

    They always come down to two factors :
    1) what is God?
    2) does one possess 'faith'

    Ignosticism ...is what I would point to first. (...google it)
    (...is 'google' a verb?)
    Fundamentally, it states that in order to discusss something, it must be defined as to what that 'thing' is ...and mutually agree on the definition.

    As example, let's discuss a tree.
    But what is a tree?
    To someone who has never seen a coniferous tree, they would probably include "it has leaves" in their definition.
    But for someone who has never seen a deciduous tree, the term 'leaves' means nothing.
    And for someone from the desert who has never seen any kind of tree, the word 'tree' means nothing.

    Some people say God is energy.
    But what is energy?
    Is not energy undefinable, as well?
    Some people say God is love.
    But what is love?
    Is not love undefinable, as well?

    So... everyone must first come to some sort of concensus as to 'what is God', or no meaningful discussion can occur.

    Then there is 'faith'...
    "...strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof..."
    Oops...
    either you gots 'faith',
    or you don't gots 'faith'.

    People who gots 'faith' sometimes say that the 'proof' that God exists is something that one just 'knows' or 'feels' 'inside'.
    But if one person just 'knows' or 'feels' 'inside', how is another person going to just 'know' or 'feel' 'inside'?
    The answer is always that one must 'believe' or 'have belief'.
    Oops, again.
    Belief = 'trust, faith, or confidence in someone or something'.

    So...
    faith is belief and...
    belief is faith.
    I'm beginning to see a pattern here.

    People who gots 'faith' sometimes say that God cannot be defined because God is beyond our understanding, our comprehension.

    "Great is our Lord, and abundant in power; his understanding is beyond measure." (Psalm 147:5)

    Glory be to your Lord, the Lord of inaccessibility, above what they describe.” (Qur'an 37: 180)

    So... how can any discussion - rational or not - about something that is beyond human comprehension and understanding even be initiated or valid?
    How can any discussion exist about something that no one can define (...and agree on the definition) - because it is beyond our comprehension and requires possessing belief in (...which requires faith in, which is the belief in, etc., etc., ad nauseam)?

    And just for fun... let's throw in Pantheism - the concept that everything, including us humans, are the 'divinity' ...are God.
    What now?
    God exists because we and everything else exists and everything is God?
    So... my (...and your) attributes and 'failings' and deviances and emotional tribulations and farts, etc., etc., are God? ...are 'divine'?

    Anyhow... first, if possible, come to a concensus definition of 'what is God'.
    Of course... for those of an atheistic persuasion, God does not exist.
    Maybe you could pretend God exists for the sake of argument.

    And...
    if a tree falls in the forest...
    does it fall left, right, forward, or backward?
     
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  5. ruji

    ruji Well-known weirdo

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  6. hush

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  7. Pin

    Pin Commander-in Chief / Ren's Counterpart

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    God...

    I wouldn't bet on there being a God (a supreme diety who watches over us). However, I wouldn't rule it out as a matter of probability.

    I largely identify as a Christian for social reasons.
     
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    #147 Pin, Nov 4, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2018
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  8. Ren

    Ren Pin's android and co-founder of Stoic Café

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    If God is just another name for being, then I acknowledge God, but only as a name.
     
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  9. neko

    neko =^.^=

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    I just choked so hard on the water I’m drinking
     
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  10. Disguised

    Disguised Community Member

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    I think and feel that the only thing to know about this "god" is best understood from the story best recognized as adam & eve. I know, a cliché right? But the story is about choosing to make our own will, to deny what is told and to take the apple. Thus making you the god of your existence.

    I want to bash my head to the wall every time I meet the mysterious version of this god.
     
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  11. just me

    just me GONE

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    @ruji, do you think God wants you to be celibate?
     
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  12. Pin

    Pin Commander-in Chief / Ren's Counterpart

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    As a human-being, I evolved to see the world in a physical way rather than a trancendant metaphysical way.
     
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  13. JennyDaniella

    JennyDaniella Stargazer

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    Rationalizing God— or the concept of a sole individual in form of a man being the mere creator of all living things—is something I find hard to fully conceptualize. I don’t blame individuals who fully surround themselves in religion, it gives them a resemblance of true meaning in life or some sort of joy of relief that life isn’t some lost and vacant journey—however; as much as I want to believe in a moral and loving powerful being such as God exist; science and logic goes against any evidence of such a presence.

    Will I fully discount of the idea or possibility? No, I try to keep an open mind. Thing is, there are so many questions regarding the experiences of life and the grand meaning behind every mechanism and aspect.

    The most grandest philosophical question: what is the purpose and meaning of life? And will we ever receive the most important answer to the following questions despite trying to understand every crevice of the human condition and facets of life?

    Knowing we might not have an answer is the most terrifying and bleakest thing one can ever imagine. There probably isn’t an answer except that it simply just is what it is. But even for me, someone who relishes in all things scientific, pursues for the truth and understand the human consciousness, believes there might be something more to life.

    I don’t believe in a God, but I won’t fully throw away the possibilities of other things that are spiritually unknown— something that might be quite incomprehensible for us mere and puny beings.
     
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  14. Gaze

    Gaze What am I mixing? Well . . .
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    I've never felt like I had to rationalize God. He simply exists. I don't think the mystery of something and the fact that we can't humanly explain certain things makes God any less real or rational. Just this past week, I was thinking about the whole idea of our earth suspended in air in something called gravity and rotating around a sun which is a huge ball of gas and heat. And there is no explanation for this phenomenon's existence. Science may try to explain how but not why. There's nothing that can humanly explain the existence of these things. They are mysterious yet we believe they are real and exist.

    How do you explain a plant growing? Yes, I'm sure there's many who can explain the agricultural, botanical, and scientific process involved, but that still will never explain why plants grow and why this way vs. another. You can explain how the brain works and tell us why what each organ in the body does, but that still will never explain why we came to be. Knowing there's another consciousness out there who knows way more than I do, and sees how it all comes together makes sense to me, since I don't and will never assume I can know all, nor do I need to.

    There was once a time I felt as if being a smart ass, or smarty pants was possible, but nope. You can be a remarkable genius and still not know very much about how everything works. Geniuses who spout theories as facts and try to dismiss God's existence because they feel their intelligence can explain away God make me laugh a little, because it's pure arrogance. Real knowledge begins with humility, and willingness to acknowledge what we know and don't know. We may not know it all, and that's ok.

    A truly smart person acknowledges they will never know everything and can't explain everything they see, hear, know, or want to know. This idea that everything can be figured out if we can take it all apart is not realistic. Just as you can analyze a painting and still not fully know what the artist intended or know what its "true" meaning or value is by doing an artistic or technical analysis of all its elements. There are some things we just never fully know, and that's ok.

    I know I'll never be able to explain the ins and outs of philosophical theories like many here, or talk about intricacies of science, technology, psychology, etc. but that doesn't make the knowledge that a omniscient presence of God any less real or viable, just because our belief in our interpretation of knowledge doesn't support an explanation of his existence the way we think it should. That's assuming all our understanding is complete and our reasoning absolutely sound and true, but our knowledge will always be incomplete and imperfect.

    I don't think everything has to be explainable or explicable to have faith in something bigger than ourselves. If all knowledge was just handed to us, there would be no scientific curiosity or discovery. Everyday, we walk on a piece of land that based on angle, location, and direction, should have us all falling off the earth and flying into oblivion, and yet we don't. Yet, we keep living and surviving in suspended animation.

    The fact that I know very little about the stars or how the planets are aligned or fully work along with the Earth doesn't make me feel any less faith in God. I think it's putting God in a box to say that because something can't be explained, then that means He's just not real. I don't think rationalizing God out of existence is even logically sound. It's much scarier and darker to believe in existence of nothing rather than something.
     
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    #154 Gaze, Nov 18, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2018
  15. Ren

    Ren Pin's android and co-founder of Stoic Café

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    Hi Gaze!

    Just out of curiosity: when you say that to you, God exists, do you mean a specific God (of Christianity or otherwise) or more the idea of a higher presence?

    I think you're right that faith beyond pure rationality is not absurd. Your post reminded me a lot of Kierkegaard.
     
  16. Gaze

    Gaze What am I mixing? Well . . .
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    I see God as both. He is a higher (actually, the highest) power. But I don't really believe in to having to justify faith. For many there will never be sufficient proof, no matter how much evidence or reason is provided. Belief, just like faith is a choice. Faith is also about knowing what the truth is in what you believe and not simply depending on feeling or sight to justify the existence of something. I am not sure it's necessary to study all faiths, religions, or philosophy to know something exists outside of the self. But I respect the search for knowledge and truth. I don't think I need to know all the ins and outs of somethingsfor it to make sense. It's fine for me to simply believe it exists. I have my personal experiences to support my beliefs, and that's enough.
     
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  17. sprinkles

    sprinkles Well-known member

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    Some times I feel like there is a god. Some times I don't. I don't feel like there's any point to explaining it, because trying to explain it doesn't actually change anything. Whatever there is, it's still there whether I understand it or not.
     
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  18. Pin

    Pin Commander-in Chief / Ren's Counterpart

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    "God is a concept...

    By which we measure...

    Our...

    Pain."

    -John Lennon
     
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    #158 Pin, Nov 24, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2018
  19. Zoned Out Again

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    While reading this , I felt the same sensation I get when I take some ice-cream.

    Lovely write up. Weldone
     
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  20. Ren

    Ren Pin's android and co-founder of Stoic Café

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    I would agree with John Lennon that God is a concept. Whether he is a being is a different story.
     
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