How did public school indocrinate you to become a sheep

[this is only temporary]

Ohh... Well, hm.

Okay, so you mean, for example, when learning calculus and becoming literate actually turned out to not be good things? For the person who went to public school and was told that these things were good, and would help them, but they actually weren't, and the person is not happy?

My first reaction would be that maybe there is more going on than the public schooling? Maybe the unhappy person is saying "Teach me more!!!" and not knowing where to find it? Or finding out that what they were taught was not actually true? Probably that happens sometimes, but I don't think public schools are actually designed to teach things that aren't true, it seems enough of a challenge to simply teach calculus and literacy.

Maybe public schools have their limits to what they can do? Maybe sometimes things just suck, with or without public schools?

 

[sprinkles]

[MENTION=4680]this is only temporary[/MENTION]

Also this is part of samsara. Animals do what they do but are subject to the cycle of life and death, and suffering.

One does not escape this typically. They just find their place that they believe is slightly better due to subjective differences.

If one actually escapes this while alive, they become an Arhat - attained nirvana while alive. These practically do not exist, especially of late.

 

[this is only temporary]

Oh fuck, now I've got to look up Arhat.

Thanks a lot Sprinkles. I will let you know what I think.

 

[Gul Dukat]

Indoctrination has nothing to do with being sold on anything. You just described the concept of a sheep. In this context what do you think a sheep does? Imagine the connotation of sheep milling around in a flock in the pen. They just want their food, and their safety. They do what they do to get what they want, obliviously, without being sold on anything.

No, the difference between indoctrination and education is that with indoctrination you're not supposed to be critical of what you're learning. Pretty much everyone and is critical of the education system as well as what the content should be... and children are often asked to express their views on issues. The only time they're probably going to run into problems with that is if they're advocating racism or some sort of extremism like 'kill all liberals'.

This contradicts what you stated above.

No, it really doesn't.
You can be critical of something while also not acting, possibly because you can't come up with a better alternative.

Indoctrination happens in religions-- you're not supposed to question the existence of God, or question that certain people know exactly what He wants. But the education system in the west would never teach you not to question your government (hopefully).

 

[sprinkles]

[MENTION=8720]Gul Dukat[/MENTION]
In my schools we weren't supposed to be critical of what we were learning. They would discourage - some times even discipline for - any kind of open critical discourse, because having a discussion, or questioning too much, disrupts the planned curriculum. Basically it interferes with the teacher's teaching, and many of them would become exasperated.

Yeah, you can be critical on your own time, but you can do that with a religion too.

This thread is about the schools anyway, not the students ability to be critical.

Edit:
Also you'll have to forgive me because I haven't been in school for 20 years. We were never asked to express views, and were in fact discouraged from doing so.

Maybe things are different now, but in the past tense that is how it did work for me.

 

[Gul Dukat]

In my schools we weren't supposed to be critical of what we were learning. They would discourage - some times even discipline for - any kind of open critical discourse, because having a discussion, or questioning too much, disrupts the planned curriculum. Basically it interferes with the teacher's teaching, and many of them would become exasperated.

Obviously, I can't comment on your personal experience but when I was growing up there would be a designated time for things like debates and giving opinions on subject matter. There would be lively discussions on all kinds of topics-- mostly in history, social studies and English classes. I actually had a teacher who on the very first day of school walked into the classroom and said 'I want to teach you how to think'-- not what to think, how to think... as in, he wanted us to have critical thinking skills. There were extracurricular classes for people to have debates and express their opinions... and there was even a feminism club of some kind. Maybe things have changed and I'll admit I grew up in a sort of hippie town, but in my experience teachers definitely didn't try to shut anyone down for having an opinion unless that opinion was backed up by some sort of unpleasant action like racism or sexism. But then, I also think that opinions were generally less extreme then than they are now.

IYeah, you can be critical on your own time, but you can do that with a religion too.

This thread is about the schools anyway, not the students ability to be critical.

Have you ever met a Christian who didn't believe in God?

And this is a thread about indoctrination in schools-- so it's important to understand what indoctrination actually is before you make claims about the education system being a tool of oppression.

There are plenty of ways to shut down critical thinking skills... I'd be a lot more worried if I was seeing state icons and religious symbols moving into the classroom ... but as I grew up, at one point in elementary school we actually stopped singing the national anthem, and stopped saying the Lord's Prayer.

I would agree that standardized testing and everything that Bush did to the education system is a horrible thing, but to go all the way to indoctrination or to say that people shouldn't be trying to prepare themselves for a career is going wayyyy too far. If people didn't do these things, then we wouldn't even have a society.

 

[sprinkles]

Obviously, I can't comment on your personal experience but when I was growing up there would be a designated time for things like debates and giving opinions on subject matter. There would be lively discussions on all kinds of topics-- mostly in history, social studies and English classes. I actually had a teacher who on the very first day of school walked into the classroom and said 'I want to teach you how to think'-- not what to think, how to think... as in, he wanted us to have critical thinking skills. There were extracurricular classes for people to have debates and express their opinions... and there was even a feminism club of some kind. Maybe things have changed and I'll admit I grew up in a sort of hippie town, but in my experience teachers definitely didn't try to shut anyone down for having an opinion unless that opinion was backed up by some sort of unpleasant action like racism or sexism. But then, I also think that opinions were generally less extreme then than they are now.

I grew up in mostly urban centers where the teachers really didn't give a crap. I didn't start seeing more progressive stuff until towards the tail end of high school, which is a bit too late in my opinion.

Have you ever met a Christian who didn't believe in God?

Yes. I was one for a while actually. Of course I'd tell people up and down how much I believed, but I really didn't.

And this is a thread about indoctrination in schools-- so it's important to understand what indoctrination actually is before you make claims about the education system being a tool of oppression.

It doesn't have to be oppression. Just misguided.

There are plenty of ways to shut down critical thinking skills... I'd be a lot more worried if I was seeing state icons and religious symbols moving into the classroom ... but as I grew up, at one point in elementary school we actually stopped singing the national anthem, and stopped saying the Lord's Prayer.

I remember that too. I also remember never being told why it was important that we do that in the first place, and also never being told why we stopped doing it, and having a developed habit of not asking because asking about stuff apparently annoys people.

I would agree that standardized testing and everything that Bush did to the education system is a horrible thing, but to go all the way to indoctrination or to say that people shouldn't be trying to prepare themselves for a career is going wayyyy too far. If people didn't do these things, then we wouldn't even have a society.

Is our society really any good in your opinion?

 

[Gul Dukat]

Yes. I was one for a while actually. Of course I'd tell people up and down how much I believed, but I really didn't.

Then you weren't a Christian. You were something else, pretending to be a Christian.

It doesn't have to be oppression. Just misguided.

Indoctrination assumes an agenda... you can't indoctrinate someone by accident. It sounds like you're mostly just taking issue with the fact that the system isn't perfect.

I remember that too. I also remember never being told why it was important that we do that in the first place, and also never being told why we stopped doing it, and having a developed habit of not asking because asking about stuff apparently annoys people.

I'm sorry that that was your experience.

Is our society really any good in your opinion?

Oy vey.

 

[sprinkles]

Then you weren't a Christian. You were something else, pretending to be a Christian.

Of course. Which I found to be advantageous at the time. It got me what I wanted.

Does this sound familiar?

Indoctrination assumes an agenda... you can't indoctrinate someone by accident. It sounds like you're mostly just taking issue with the fact that the system isn't perfect.

Yes, the agenda is to teach. The premise didn't actually used to be separate. In archaic terms, indoctrinate stems from doctrine, and doctrine was synonymous with 'something that is taught'.

It has little to do with being some controlling mastermind, and in fact often the one who indoctrinates does so with what they believe to be good intentions, as often happens with religious dogma.

I'm sorry that that was your experience.

Me too.

Oy vey.

Why? I'm just curious of your opinion. I think it's a legitimate question.

 

[Gul Dukat]

Of course. Which I found to be advantageous at the time. It got me what I wanted.

Does this sound familiar?

If you didn't actually believe, then you weren't indoctrinated. If you were standing outside of it and examining it critically, then you weren't indoctrinated. I don't know what else to say about that.

Yes, the agenda is to teach. The premise didn't actually used to be separate. In archaic terms, indoctrinate stems from doctrine, and doctrine was synonymous with 'something that is taught'.

So if I go to a yoga class, I'm being indoctrinated? If I try to learn Spanish, I'm indoctrinating myself? If I learn how to survive in the wilderness by my own choosing, move away from all of society, and spend the rest of my days living as a modern caveman, the only reason that I can survive on my own is because I'm indoctrinated?

Come on.

It has little to do with being some controlling mastermind, and in fact often the one who indoctrinates does so with what they believe to be good intentions, as often happens with religious dogma.

What does this have to do with education? I agree-- don't show blatant propaganda videos in classes. I'd say one of the biggest problems for genuine educators today is that they can't make the students pay attention the same way that the propaganda on youtube can.

Why? I'm just curious of your opinion. I think it's a legitimate question.

I disagree.

 

[Quiet]

I really hated high school. I did feel like i was acting like a sheep. All the conformity and rules, having to go because it was compulsory, having to learn things i thought werent true, being told i asked too many questions or that i was disruptive or too quiet or too something. Dress like this, stand like this, sit like this, act like this, I disliked the competition and even then i thought that public school was priming people to be dicks in the workplace. I hated the cliquey attitude of the kids, i thought the prefects were annoying and found the whole atmosphere oppresive. Its really just learning to fit into the status quo. Which is fine unless you happen to think that the status quo is ridiculous.

What i learned is that for me to do well, all i had to do is read the criteria and match it. Memorise and repeat. Being creative or honest would mean that i obviously didnt actually get it. And thus get a lower grade. After a while there seemed to be no point. All i was doing was proving i could recite. It was really boring.
I really liked art and science because these were the only subjects where i could explore and think for myself.

I also really liked some of my teachers, especially my vice-principal. Some of us really seemed to understand each other. I generally liked the teachers better than the kids. I used some ofthem as references for work and uni stuff later down the track.

I got into trouble all the time for random things. I got constant detentions and suspended quite a few times, mostly for dumb things that i did, sometimes for nothing. I absolutely hated the attention and just wanted to be left alone. But i didnt really know how to make myself fit into what they wanted though. I always felt like somehow i was wasting time and i would learn more hanging out in the forest all day. I hardly went to school at all for the last 3 years, i couldnt stand being there and had better ways to spend my time. I do have some nice memories with my handful of friends.

University was a completely different experience though- i really did/do enjoy studying, even if i disagree with what im being taught. I guess the difference is that im allowed to disagree and its voluntary.

Many people i know really enjoyed their school experience and wouldnt relate to any of this. Im really glad that it was a positive experience for them.
I dont know if schools are still as bad as they were. I think they are probably getting better in the sense they focus more on different learning styles and more vocational education.
I will send my daughter to a Steiner School when she's ready. Im not going to send her to preschool.

 

[sprinkles]

If you didn't actually believe, then you weren't indoctrinated. If you were standing outside of it and examining it critically, then you weren't indoctrinated. I don't know what else to say about that.

I was indoctrinated because I was taught this prior to my critical viewpoint. Being critical after the fact doesn't count.

So if I go to a yoga class, I'm being indoctrinated? If I try to learn Spanish, I'm indoctrinating myself? If I learn how to survive in the wilderness by my own choosing, move away from all of society, and spend the rest of my days living as a modern caveman, the only reason that I can survive on my own is because I'm indoctrinated?

Possibly, on all counts. These are all structured around subjective differences.

The fact is that just about anything you learn will contain an arbitrary and traditional element, which is as it is because it is just so. Why does Spanish have a certain way of conjugating verbs, for example? Because it just does. Conjugating verbs could be argued to be a useful practice, sure, but there are many ways to do so, but doing so in the Spanish form in particular is only a result of traditional cohesion. How many Spanish classes teach that?

Come on.

[video=youtube;KFNcStdF_Ok]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFNcStdF_Ok[/video]

What does this have to do with education? I agree-- don't show blatant propaganda videos in classes. I'd say one of the biggest problems for genuine educators today is that they can't make the students pay attention the same way that the propaganda on youtube can.

It seems that you're seeing things differently than I am (no surprise)

I disagree.

Very well, then.

 

[sprinkles]

I really hated high school. I did feel like i was acting like a sheep. All the conformity and rules, having to go because it was compulsory, having to learn things i thought werent true, being told i asked too many questions or that i was disruptive or too quiet or too something. Dress like this, stand like this, sit like this, act like this, I disliked the competition and even then i thought that public school was priming people to be dicks in the workplace. I hated the cliquey attitude of the kids, i thought the prefects were annoying and found the whole atmosphere oppresive. Its really just learning to fit into the status quo. Which is fine unless you happen to think that the status quo is ridiculous.

What i learned is that for me to do well, all i had to do is read the criteria and match it. Memorise and repeat. Being creative or honest would mean that i obviously didnt actually get it. And thus get a lower grade. After a while there seemed to be no point. All i was doing was proving i could recite. It was really boring.
I really liked art and science because these were the only subjects where i could explore and think for myself.

I also really liked some of my teachers, especially my vice-principal. Some of us really seemed to understand each other. I generally liked the teachers better than the kids. I used some ofthem as references for work and uni stuff later down the track.

I got into trouble all the time for random things. I got constant detentions and suspended quite a few times, mostly for dumb things that i did, sometimes for nothing. I absolutely hated the attention and just wanted to be left alone. But i didnt really know how to make myself fit into what they wanted though. I always felt like somehow i was wasting time and i would learn more hanging out in the forest all day. I hardly went to school at all for the last 3 years, i couldnt stand being there and had better ways to spend my time. I do have some nice memories with my handful of friends.

University was a completely different experience though- i really did/do enjoy studying, even if i disagree with what im being taught. I guess the difference is that im allowed to disagree and its voluntary.

Many people i know really enjoyed their school experience and wouldnt relate to any of this. Im really glad that it was a positive experience for them.
I dont know if schools are still as bad as they were. I think they are probably getting better in the sense they focus more on different learning styles and more vocational education.
I will send my daughter to a Steiner School when she's ready. Im not going to send her to preschool.

I don't think people realize what's going on if they aren't the ones issuing the challenges to the system.

How would one know if they are complicit?

I mean if you're in Flatland and haven't gotten to 3D land then everything is just fine and there's nothing to complain about, and the Flatlanders think they are more elucidated than the Pointlanders (one dimensional land). They aren't indoctrinated at all!

This is what leads to the previously alluded to phenomenon of everyone thinking they aren't the sheep yet everyone else is.

 

[Gul Dukat]

I was indoctrinated because I was taught this prior to my critical viewpoint. Being critical after the fact doesn't count.

You said that you were just pretending to be a Christian and didn't believe, but now you seem to be saying that you did believe at one point. If you did believe without being encouraged to question those beliefs, then yes, you were indoctrinated. If you didn't believe but were just pretending, then no, you weren't indoctrinated. If you did believe, then you didn't, then you changed your mind... you're free to do so. If you were encouraged to question your faith by your church, then they were educating, not indoctrinating.

Possibly, on all counts. These are all structured around subjective differences.

The fact is that just about anything you learn will contain an arbitrary and traditional element, which is as it is because it is just so. Why does Spanish have a certain way of conjugating verbs, for example? Because it just does. Conjugating verbs could be argued to be a useful practice, sure, but there are many ways to do so, but doing so in the Spanish form in particular is only a result of traditional cohesion. How many Spanish classes teach that?

How many students of Spanish actually care about that? If people wanted to learn about the whys, they would be studying linguistics or anthropology or some sort of cultural class... or maybe they would just be asking these questions on their own time. Are you saying that the only way to avoid indoctrination is to incorporate those things into a language class?

 

[sprinkles]

You said that you were just pretending to be a Christian and didn't believe, but now you seem to be saying that you did believe at one point. If you did believe without being encouraged to question those beliefs, then yes, you were indoctrinated. If you didn't believe but were just pretending, then no, you weren't indoctrinated. If you did believe, then you didn't, then you changed your mind... you're free to do so. If you were encouraged to question your faith by your church, then they were educating, not indoctrinating.

Sounds accurate to me.

How many students of Spanish actually care about that? If people wanted to learn about the whys, they would be studying linguistics or anthropology or some sort of cultural class... or maybe they would just be asking these questions on their own time. Are you saying that the only way to avoid indoctrination is to incorporate those things into a language class?

No, what I'm really saying is that indoctrination is a term which has more recently acquired a dualistic and pejorative connotation.

It's something that everyone likes to believe that they aren't, if it's bad, but if it's good they are, but in that case they call the same thing something else.

 

[Faye]

The school environment promotes sheep-like behavior. You're judged on your ability to conform to predetermined standards, so you must conform to the expectations of teachers in order to meet those standards or otherwise fail.

It wont be different in a private school or in life in general. Humans in general are pretty sheep-like.

 

[Gul Dukat]

The only way to not be a sheep is to lock yourself in a padded room somewhere and only live in your dreams.

 

[sprinkles]

The only way to not be a sheep is to lock yourself in a padded room somewhere and only live in your dreams.

Well that's an interesting way of putting it. I don't think it is necessarily true though.

I think the only way is to stop having compulsions, attachments, aversions, and ignorance. The padded room or your dreams won't necessarily stop any of those.

Like I said before, you basically would have to become an arhat. Personally I've never met an arhat, at least not one that I'm aware of.

 

[j654dgj7]

Humans in general are pretty sheep-like.

That's a very cynical thing to say. FYI others think you're pretty sheep-like, in fact I'd go so far as to say that all humans think some other humans are sheep-like. I say, if we hate sheep so much, why don't we just unite as humans and kill the bastards?

 

[sprinkles]

That's a very cynical thing to say. FYI others think you're pretty sheep-like, in fact I'd go so far as to say that all humans think some other humans are sheep-like. I say, if we hate sheep so much, why don't we just unite as humans and kill the bastards?

There's nothing inherently hateful or cynical about it.

If I hated sheep, I'd have to hate myself, because I too am a sheep after a fashion.

In fact I catch myself in sheep like behavior all the time. Some times even being a sheep to my own conception of self.

Edit:
Also some sheep people are still fine and pleasant individuals. Why should we kill them? Who gave you the idea that sheep people must be so hated and despised?

It was probably other sheep. Like those overly militant atheists who call themselves free thinkers. Or people who excessively hate Justin Bieber.

Hating on stuff isn't cool.