Greece

Eventhorizon

Eventhorizon

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Another socialist country fails and falls.
Huh.
 
I think that the greek people are very brave to vote against a tyrannical debt agreement proposed by creditors.

A debt agreement that would have further screwed over the greek population personally. in their own bank accounts. It would have made a bad situation for the greek people, worse.
Greece was brought to its knees in order to hide the fact that the banks in europe had to be saved several times over in the past few years.
And what it is coming down to is that greece is being made a scapegoat to hide this fact.

Besides. theres a so called super power with a bigger debt. Why don't you do some austerity measures. Alas the map is from 2012 so it doesn't show that iceland improved dramatically when they let the banks fail ;p Perhaps we in the west should be less hypocritical.
 
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I personally think that their brave stance is born of lack of knowledge. I have no doubt the possible effect has been discussed at dinner tables but talking about it and experiencing it are two different things. People WILL die from starvation, homes will be lost, people will find work though it will be grueling and pay markedly little. And all this will likely last decades. All because of how they modeled their economy. Its a direct reflection of how liberals in America want our economy and government to be modeled. Complete dependency on the government.
Suprise, it failed.

Yeah and as for Americas debt...I am not happy about it and that is reflected in how I vote. Unfortunately others seems to think that so long as they are getting free stuff, its all good. Sound familiar?
 
Also I dont think Greece is being made a scapegoat. I think Greece is simply the first country to fall because the "world" bailout that happened earlier was never going to work. Remember when the worlds economy was on the brink of collapse? They only put off the enevitable. Greece is simply the first but it will far be from the last.
 
Also "their leaders mislead them?" Thats like saying Obama mislead his voting base. There have been more than enough people yelling and screaming abiut his actions and how his policies cant work in the real world. Meanwhile liberals walking around with their hand over their ears and eyes closed. "We want what we want!" Greeces government did not mislead anyone. There was a rotten contingent within the minds of the population there just like there is here that brought it about.
 
All the real capital or real value is still there, the failure is in the distribution of said capital, meaning it isn't as if they would need to be starving from lack of food available. There's something there... money > lives is the takeaway message. At least, that's where the world in general has its priorities at. Loan sharking is common, and obviously it's good for economies. Poofing money, in this case the illusion of value, into being out of thin air via things like high interest rates will inevitably result in things like this. It would have to be for short term ends that would have to be timely for long term goals for it to be worthwhile. Frivolous spending wouldn't count.
 
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Sometimes you have to hit rock bottom to rise up again.
 
Y0u said:
All the real capital or real value is still there, the failure is in the distribution of said capital, meaning it isn't as if they would need to be starving from lack of food available. There's something there... money > lives is the takeaway message. At least, that's where the world in general has its priorities at. Loan sharking is common, and obviously it's good for economies. Poofing money, in this case the illusion of value, into being out of thin air via things like high interest rates will inevitably result in things like this. It would have to be for short term ends that would have to be timely for long term goals for it to be worthwhile. Frivolous spending wouldn't count.
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Ok given how economy's work... what in Greece do you see that has value? Im not saying that it doesnt but a country cant exist with its only product being food no matter how good it is.
This in part is what I am saying is wrong. The government has essentially been giving the people everything they need to survive with out requiring most to work for it. In that situation who WOULD get out of bed in the morning to go to any type of job?
Greece is an excellent example of exactly what can happen when government dependency 8s the norm.
 
Eventhorizon said:
Ok given how economy's work... what in Greece do you see that has value? Im not saying that it doesnt but a country cant exist with its only product being food no matter how good it is.
This in part is what I am saying is wrong. The government has essentially been giving the people everything they need to survive with out requiring most to work for it. In that situation who WOULD get out of bed in the morning to go to any type of job?
Greece is an excellent example of exactly what can happen when government dependency 8s the norm.
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I don't know, I'm not an expert in Greek's economy. I'm sure they have plenty, I don't care to do the research, because it's not going to change a thing. If you're not going to, you have no place saying that they don't have an economy that isn't fictitious and that it's a case of hopeless socialism.
 
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Y0u said:
I don't know, I'm not an expert in Greek's economy. I'm sure they have plenty, I don't care to do the research, because it's not going to change a thing. If you're not going to, you have no place saying that they don't have an economy that isn't fictitious and that it's a case of hopeless socialism.
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Fair enough but I would counter and say thay if you dont know you also cant say theres enough there to base a viable economy on without radical change.

Btw..
http://www.heritage.org/index/country/greece
 
Skarekrow said:
Fact check -
Actually they are a Parliamentary Republic, not socialist.
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They can call themselves what they like. The fact is that once you cross the threshold of complete government dependency you have a socialist system. A rose is still a rose under any other name.
 
Okay okay...

Greece joined the EU and the Euro, the problem is the whole concept was bound to fail unless the richer countries are willing to even the playing field.
Greece has an unemployment rate of 25.6% currently, while richer countries like Germany (4.7%) are much lower.
This may not seem like the issue, but it ultimately is.

(This is the first quarter of the 2015 average)
greece-explainer-graphics-custom2.png


So all these unequal counties are using the Euro…we do this ourself in the US as we have unequal distributions of how much money each state makes or needs in assistance…and so when poorer states like Mississippi and Kentucky are not doing as well as say - California, then money get shuffled around and we help those states that need more from those states that make more.

The problem with the Euro and Greece is no money was shifted to balance the poorer countries.


The US began this whole crisis in the first place…it was shortly after the collapse of Wall street that Greece announced it’s deficit problems.
So the IMF loaned them a shitload of money…with interest of course…this is how it differs from the US as states don’t pay back loans…money gets distributed.

Unfortunately, loans alone do not make for lower unemployment and higher GDP.
So when the IMF came knocking, Greece pushed heavy austerity cuts on it’s people…including making huge cuts to pensioners who could no longer work even if there was work.

And so we come to the recent vote….to tell the bank that they are crushing the people of Greece….it was basically a predatory loan.
 
Eventhorizon said:
They can call themselves what they like. The fact is that once you cross the threshold of complete government dependency you have a socialist system. A rose is still a rose under any other name.
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There are many highly successful counties that adhere to a form of Socialized Democracy.
There is nothing wrong with being self-sufficient at all…one always should strive for that.
But the whole reason we have countries and societies is because of certain benefits we get from living in such a state.
The people of those countries voted on what laws and government they have…they voted on where and how they wanted their tax dollars allocated.
Nobody forced them to become more “Socialized”, it has it’s benefits and drawbacks.
Would you call the “Democracy” of Iraq a success?
The form of government does not make any guarantees of prosperity.
 
Skarekrow said:
Okay okay...

Greece joined the EU and the Euro, the problem is the whole concept was bound to fail unless the richer countries are willing to even the playing field.
Greece has an unemployment rate of 25.6% currently, while richer countries like Germany (4.7%) are much lower.
This may not seem like the issue, but it ultimately is.

(This is the first quarter of the 2015 average)
greece-explainer-graphics-custom2.png


So all these unequal counties are using the Euro…we do this ourself in the US as we have unequal distributions of how much money each state makes or needs in assistance…and so when poorer states like Mississippi and Kentucky are not doing as well as say - California, then money get shuffled around and we help those states that need more from those states that make more.

The problem with the Euro and Greece is no money was shifted to balance the poorer countries.


The US began this whole crisis in the first place…it was shortly after the collapse of Wall street that Greece announced it’s deficit problems.
So the IMF loaned them a shitload of money…with interest of course…this is how it differs from the US as states don’t pay back loans…money gets distributed.

Unfortunately, loans alone do not make for lower unemployment and higher GDP.
So when the IMF came knocking, Greece pushed heavy austerity cuts on it’s people…including making huge cuts to pensioners who could no longer work even if there was work.

And so we come to the recent vote….to tell the bank that they are crushing the people of Greece….it was basically a predatory loan.
Click to expand...

Im not sure I would say the US caused it as much as it was major player. I mean we could lay blame on China and its way over inflated Renminbi value. Heres a country that just keeps printinting its own money with nothing to back it. Not to mention the thriving counterfeit creation and trade of the US dollar by them.
 
Eventhorizon said:
Im not sure I would say the US caused it as much as it was major player. I mean we could lay blame on China and its way over inflated Renminbi value. Heres a country that just keeps printinting its own money with nothing to back it. Not to mention the thriving counterfeit creation and trade of the US dollar by them.
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I’m sure China is just as crooked as our own Wall Street is.
Anyhow…okay…we were a major contributor…but they also had all their eggs in one basket….kind of like what the US is setting itself up for.
 
The US faces many of the same problems that is bringing Greece down. Our financial system is leveraged to the hilt, we have ever decreasing production, it is the norm to live beyond one's means, debt is still the name of the game, we are dependent on imports, the banks will need bailing again, but this time no one will be able to bail them, many millions are dependent upon federal aide of some kind etc etc. See any similarities? Socialism per se is not exactly Greece's problem of the moment.
 
Eventhorizon said:
Heres a country that just keeps printinting its own money with nothing to back it.
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I assume you are talking about america with this sentence right?

PintoBean said:
The US faces many of the same problems that is bringing Greece down. Our financial system is leveraged to the hilt, we have ever decreasing production, it is the norm to live beyond one's means, debt is still the name of the game, we are dependent on imports, the banks will need bailing again, but this time no one will be able to bail them, many millions are dependent upon federal aide of some kind etc etc. See any similarities? Socialism per se is not exactly Greece's problem of the moment.
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Actually, America has been facing this problem far far longer on a much worse and larger scale. The difference is that greece by being in the euro, cannot start printing its own baseless money like the states does and it keeps being forced to accept deals that prevent its economy from recovering. This is one of the key reasons why for years now, many countries have begun to move away from the US dollar.

Also the problems are not with socialism, its with capitalism, corporations and the absence of well governed laws to prevent government officials from ransacking their nation and taking bribes from corporations.


Something you might find interesting, is that in some countries, such as the united states, there are ways to get an amendment in place that can fix the country. One such effort is underway in America right now: http://www.wolf-pac.com/
 
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