Greece

[Lerxst]

Another socialist country fails and falls.
Huh.

Do your homework. Greece adopted US financial practices, the same ones that led us into a recession. When the bubble finally burst, we had the credit to buy our way out, Greece did not. Had they gone the actual "socialist" route that Norway, Sweden, Denmark, etc. did, there wouldn't have been a financial crisis to begin with. Instead, they were lured in by the glitz and glamour of the "American Dream" by the financial institutions.

 

[PintoBean]

...Actually, America has been facing this problem far far longer on a much worse and larger scale. The difference is that greece by being in the euro, cannot start printing its own baseless money like the states does and it keeps being forced to accept deals that prevent its economy from recovering. This is one of the key reasons why for years now, many countries have begun to move away from the US dollar.

---

Also the problems are not with socialism, its with capitalism, corporations and the absence of well governed laws to prevent government officials from ransacking their nation and taking bribes from corporations.


Something you might find interesting, is that in some countries, such as the united states, there are ways to get an amendment in place that can fix the country. One such effort is underway in America right now: http://www.wolf-pac.com/

I totally agree on all points.

 

[Skarekrow]

 

[Eventhorizon]

Yeah thats even more than I thought of.
I am completely on board with anyone who says "no bail out" for us companies that fail. Its capitalism after all and thats part of it. You make mistakes and your company fails, oh well thats life.
Why did we bail GM out etc?
One of the issues I see with bailing Greece out is that theres no plan how they recover even after the bailout.
Anyway I think we are coming to a head. Its not going to matter soon.

 

[Skarekrow]

Yeah thats even more than I thought of.
I am completely on board with anyone who says "no bail out" for us companies that fail. Its capitalism after all and thats part of it. You make mistakes and your company fails, oh well thats life.
Why did we bail GM out etc?
One of the issues I see with bailing Greece out is that theres no plan how they recover even after the bailout.
Anyway I think we are coming to a head. Its not going to matter soon.

I fear the predictions will be true and the stock market is going to crash again soon and badly…the banks have the US taxpayers on the hook again fortunately for them, thanks to this little beauty that passed last year - http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/...-on-the-hook-for-303-Trillion-in-Derivatives#
I find it very sad how stupidly apathetic and how out of touch ANY politician who passed this lobbyist written bill after what happened in 2008.
It’s an insult to the American taxpayer and a prime example of two things…1. The money needs to go from politics, and 2. we are being gouged as a nation to line the pockets of the few, while the average Joe struggles to get by with wages that have stagnated since the 80’s.

Although, if they try to take another bail-out, it may be just the spark that is needed to make sweeping REAL reform.
So here’s hoping for the later with little bloodshed.

 

[j654dgj7]

The economical collapse of Greece is a super complex and intricate ordeal, and something that has been brewing for a long time. It goes way beyond political ideologies like socialism and conservatism.

Long story short, Greece is going bankrupt because of their lousy infrastructure and unpaid taxes. The central government has not registered and collected its revenues, because they didn't have good enough systems set in place. It's the same failures that lead to people no longer working, but still getting paid for their old services. They just aren't set up for a modern competitive democracy, in the long haul. When people don't feel the need to pay taxes, they stop. Especially during recessions. A lot of wealthy people leave the country in so called "brain drains".

This and so much more is to blame for the fiasco. Blaming a political ideology hardly seems fair. I don't know any political ideology that would idolize present day Greece.

 

[Eventhorizon]

The economical collapse of Greece is a super complex and intricate ordeal, and something that has been brewing for a long time. It goes way beyond political ideologies like socialism and conservatism.

Long story short, Greece is going bankrupt because of their lousy infrastructure and unpaid taxes. The central government has not registered and collected its revenues, because they didn't have good enough systems set in place. It's the same failures that lead to people no longer working, but still getting paid for their old services. They just aren't set up for a modern competitive democracy, in the long haul. When people don't feel the need to pay taxes, they stop. Especially during recessions. A lot of wealthy people leave the country in so called "brain drains".

This and so much more is to blame for the fiasco. Blaming a political ideology hardly seems fair. I don't know any political ideology that would idolize present day Greece.

Perhaps its not the full reason but it certainly is a large part of the whole if not. Or so I have come to believe anyway. However I am certainly not an expert. I only know what I know from the information I have come across and I am sure I do not know all of it and likely never will.

 

[j654dgj7]

Perhaps its not the full reason but it certainly is a large part of the whole if not. Or so I have come to believe anyway. However I am certainly not an expert. I only know what I know from the information I have come across and I am sure I do not know all of it and likely never will.

It serves a lot of people good to blame it all on socialism. Like when some pundits claim that sharia law is being practiced in Europe, which isn't true at all. It's meant to scare you, basically.

 

[Skarekrow]

[video=youtube;C8xAXJx9WJ8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=C8xAXJx9WJ8[/video]



Here, this has some good explanations.​

 

[j654dgj7]

Keep in mind that Europe is a collection of different sovereign countries with different cultures. Sweden and Greece, for example, have very little in common - demographically, economically and sociologically.
Just because one country falters, doesn't mean that Europe as a whole is failing. Northern Europe is fine. Danish economists are saying that an economic collapse in Greece would have no impact in Northern Europe at all, because of the limited economic ties between the regions.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that Europe isn't comprised of states like in the US. It's a collection of sovereign states that work together. The European Union isn't a federal-type government. If you want to get technical, it's a type of supranational union that hovers above its members. Like a judicial system that represents the economical and environmental interests of its members. Among other things.

Greece is at fault for not running a functional government. The EU has been throwing billions of dollars at the problem in the hopes that it would fix itself. It hasn't, and Greece is being difficult about it. Greece is like a 38-year-old nephew that lies on his couch all day and refuses to get a job before he can find the perfect African studies job.

 

[Skarekrow]

Keep in mind that Europe is a collection of different sovereign countries with different cultures. Sweden and Greece, for example, have very little in common - demographically, economically and sociologically.
Just because one country falters, doesn't mean that Europe as a whole is failing. Northern Europe is fine. Danish economists are saying that an economic collapse in Greece would have no impact in Northern Europe at all, because of the limited economic ties between the regions.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that Europe isn't comprised of states like in the US. It's a collection of sovereign states that work together. The European Union isn't a federal-type government. If you want to get technical, it's a type of supranational union that hovers above its members. Like a judicial system that represents the economical and environmental interests of its members. Among other things.

Greece is at fault for not running a functional government. The EU has been throwing billions of dollars at the problem in the hopes that it would fix itself. It hasn't, and Greece is being difficult about it. Greece is like a 38-year-old nephew that lies on his couch all day and refuses to get a job before he can find the perfect African studies job.

I agree with you that Greece has no one to blame but itself really.
It was through very poor mismanagement by their government officials (much like what is happening here in the US) and then they got caught in a cycle of paying off debt with more debt stacked on top (again, like the US), but part of the problem I see with the austerity cuts is they actually contributed to the extremely high unemployment rate. And bad credit rolls all the way down hill…even most store merchants have some kind of lines of credit to buy the products that they are hoping will make them a profit…so if they can’t get credit, it leads to food shortages and job lay-offs.
I just think the banks need to eat this one…especially the loans that were being made to pay off the debtors…gimme a fucking break…I like how they can play a major role in contributing to the problem, and exacerbate the problem, but then it’s ultimately the taxpayers that end up with the shit end of the stick…every. single. fucking. time.

 

[j654dgj7]

It was through very poor mismanagement by their government officials (much like what is happening here in the US) and then they got caught in a cycle of paying off debt with more debt stacked on top (again, like the US), but part of the problem I see with the austerity cuts is they actually contributed to the extremely high unemployment rate. And bad credit rolls all the way down hill…even most store merchants have some kind of lines of credit to buy the products that they are hoping will make them a profit…so if they can’t get credit, it leads to food shortages and job lay-offs.

Principally, yes. They have themselves to blame. I would hesitate to compare them to the US, though. Greece has never really been a centralized, federalized country like most of the Western world. They have always been more provincial and impoverished than their neighbors, unfortunately.

I just think the banks need to eat this one…especially the loans that were being made to pay off the debtors…gimme a fucking break…I like how they can play a major role in contributing to the problem, and exacerbate the problem, but then it’s ultimately the taxpayers that end up with the shit end of the stick…every. single. fucking. time.

This is a tough one. If the EU erases some/all of Greece's debt, two major problems will arise.

1) Rebellion. Ireland, Spain and Italy have all made tremendous strides economically after they have received help from the EU. Why do they have to pay off their debts? It's not like they're well-off! Italy owes 140% of its BNP to the EU, just short of Greece's 180%. Should everyone have their debts paid off? Ouch. This brings me to #2:

2) Anger. Germany has gone into a lot of debt to pay for the stimulis packages these last years. They're expecting their money back to fix their own problems - they have a lot of problems, too! If Merkel gives in, the average German will be pissed off that she essentially gave a crazy amount of money to a number of lost causes. The same goes for the UK, France, The Netherlands and others that have contributed greatly.

No banks would ever loan Greece money. It's an extraordinarily good deal that they've had so far, and they're not exactly treating the rest of the EU with much respect, in my humble opinion.

I don't know what the right option is. I'm just saying. A lot is on stake for everyone.

 

[Skarekrow]

Principally, yes. They have themselves to blame. I would hesitate to compare them to the US, though. Greece has never really been a centralized, federalized country like most of the Western world. They have always been more provincial and impoverished than their neighbors, unfortunately.



This is a tough one. If the EU erases some/all of Greece's debt, two major problems will arise.

1) Rebellion. Ireland, Spain and Italy have all made tremendous strides economically after they have received help from the EU. Why do they have to pay off their debts? It's not like they're well-off! Italy owes 140% of its BNP to the EU, just short of Greece's 180%. Should everyone have their debts paid off? Ouch. This brings me to #2:

2) Anger. Germany has gone into a lot of debt to pay for the stimulis packages these last years. They're expecting their money back to fix their own problems - they have a lot of problems, too! If Merkel gives in, the average German will be pissed off that she essentially gave a crazy amount of money to a number of lost causes. The same goes for the UK, France, The Netherlands and others that have contributed greatly.

No banks would ever loan Greece money. It's an extraordinarily good deal that they've had so far, and they're not exactly treating the rest of the EU with much respect, in my humble opinion.

I don't know what the right option is. I'm just saying. A lot is on stake for everyone.

Like I said before…this was a poorly conceived Union.
You have so many different countries with different fiscal practices, GDP, taxes, unemployment, etc. and you group them in with powerhouses like Germany with very low unemployment, very different in so many ways not just from Greece but like you said it’s a collection of very different countries in general.

So there will be this imbalance that exists just by the very nature of system.

The problem with NOT bailing out Greece is the possibly devastating chain reaction that could result from it, and that is something that should be first and foremost in people’s minds.

 

[j654dgj7]

Like I said before…this was a poorly conceived Union.
You have so many different countries with different fiscal practices, GDP, taxes, unemployment, etc. and you group them in with powerhouses like Germany with very low unemployment, very different in so many ways not just from Greece but like you said it’s a collection of very different countries in general.

Absolutely. I can see the value of a supranational system, where the countries help each other out. The reach of the EU today has proven to be unstable and poorly thought out. There needs to be a thorough re-evaluation of the organization.

The problem with NOT bailing out Greece is the possibly devastating chain reaction that could result from it, and that is something that should be first and foremost in people’s minds.

Pretty much. Except the situation currently is that Greece is refusing money, because they want a better deal. The EU and Germany are more than willing to ship billions of euros to Greece tomorrow if Tzipras agrees to a deal. So they're offering what you want them to offer, they just don't want the money.

 

[Skarekrow]

Absolutely. I can see the value of a supranational system, where the countries help each other out. The reach of the EU today has proven to be unstable and poorly thought out. There needs to be a thorough re-evaluation of the organization.



Pretty much. Except the situation currently is that Greece is refusing money, because they want a better deal. The EU and Germany are more than willing to ship billions of euros to Greece tomorrow if Tzipras agrees to a deal. So they're offering what you want them to offer, they just don't want the money.

Well, on the bright side…I bet you can get some really great travel deals there right now!!

 

[j654dgj7]

Well, on the bright side…I bet you can get some really great travel deals there right now!!

No joke, my parents just booked a trip for next week! Crazy low prices.

 

[PintoBean]

...The problem with NOT bailing out Greece is the possibly devastating chain reaction that could result from it, and that is something that should be first and foremost in people’s minds.

While psychologically it may play into market forces to set the inevitable into action sooner than later, countries like Spain and Portugal are not really much better off than Greece. Greece was the tip of the iceberg, but many countries are independently problematic, so I am not sure bailing out Greece would stop the inevitable collapse of the EU anyway. But who knows. Only time will tell.

 

[Skarekrow]

No joke, my parents just booked a trip for next week! Crazy low prices.

I will be looking into this!!
No joke.

If I go, you should come meet me and Sensiko in Greece!

 

[Skarekrow]

While psychologically it may play into market forces to set the inevitable into action sooner than later, countries like Spain and Portugal are not really much better off than Greece. Greece was the tip of the iceberg, but many countries are independently problematic, so I am not sure bailing out Greece would stop the inevitable collapse of the EU anyway. But who knows. Only time will tell.

This whole thread is mostly all just speculation at best.
You are right, time will tell.

 

[PintoBean]

This whole thread is mostly all just speculation at best.
You are right, time will tell.

Wut?! You mean we are not world class foreign policy experts with our finger on the pulse of the major financial workings the world over? I am sorely disappointed. I really thought we were on to something.