Gamergate controversary

[muir]

I don't know the first thing about the gnming community...the last computer game i played was on the NES

But there's something about the nature of people communicating in a way that is not face to face that brings out the worst in people

It's almost like it's not really reality so they feel like it's a victimless crime, because they see no result from their behaviour

It's like drone pilots who are given medals and yet they take NO risks...they just look at a video screen as if they are playing a computer game and they blow up people that look like a bunch of pixels

Then there are other factors...many gamers will be young and frankly immature

Then there is the competitive nature of gaming which is going to encourage a kind of tribalistic attitude not to mention the graphic and violent nature of the games themselves (pulse rates increase with these activities)

All this and other factors besides are going to encourage bad behaviour

What i would watch out for though is the authorities trying to place controls on the internet and using the behaviour of gaming trolls (some of which might even be government agents strirrign up problems) as a justification for cracking down on the internet thereby closing down the free flow of information which in the grand scheme of things is far more important than leisure activities like gaming

 

[Lark]

There is a lot of toxic gaming communities, just there are also a lot of toxic LGBT communities and a lot of toxic techie communities. No matter what interest you have you'll find that it's impossible to avoid assholes in that community. That said, video games are one of the worst for crude, trollish behavior. There's a great deal of misogyny, homophobia and even racism in gaming today.

However, this attitude seems to be changing (very slowly, I admit) and there's a lot more people pushing for diversity in video games. Horribly misogynistic games like GTA V are called out for their behavior and the pathetic excuses for lack of any non-cisexual characters are being attacked more and more.

A large amount of gamers and developers (or at least mainstream ones) are insecure young males and oppose these changes. They're the most outspoken ones who look at any attempt to diversify as an attack on their hobby. While I'm uncertain about the future of the industry, I believe that as this medium matures, those who decry "SJW bullshit" over every little change or who resort to death threats to get their way will become less and less relevant.

I agree with you about the toxic element in any community or scene and I cant really talk about the gaming community specifically, or at least I would be careful about how I generalise and I cant say that I belong to any gaming community besides retro gaming.

Which kind of brings me on to my point, in some ways I'm a retro gamer because I grew up with games that are now called retro and I like the format of play, if only some of the graphics were improved and the game mechanics, but its also a cultural thing too. There's no politics in retro games. No one was debating whether or not Simon Belmont was a homosexual when Castlevania was out, no one asked serious questions about whether or not there should be female leads instead for the same reason that people liked to read hero fiction featuring male leads without wanting to feel like a jerk about it.

I dont know that there has to be a forced "diversification" of games, I dont like some of the more forced diversification of other mediums, in the UK the BBCs heavy pushing of a "queer in every show" or at least a sexual orientation storyline which is seen to validate anything other than heterosexuality, if it is heterosexuality there is some sort of accent upon it has proved alienating or tiring. I think there's nothing wrong with people asking why every game, film, TV show, song etc. has to have a heavy feature of homosexuality when they practically may never meet a homosexual in their daily lives or give the existence of homosexuality as a thing an active thought.

Part of the problem with the reaction against this which has come from gamers is that its easily dismissed as being a bunch of insecure young males and I think that's unfortunate. For one its only going to get them more stoked and the unfortunate "If people call me a bigot, expect me to be a bigot, then I'll be a bigot and fuck them" thing happens, that's the nature of insecurity and perceived rejection or rebuke.

For another they may be insecure but I think its insufficent grounds to invalid their response, sure there's maybe going to be one or two people who are covering up their own identity issues or struggles by attacking that which they secretly identify with but I think its been seriously mistaken to generalise this to an entire population in the way it has been in the past.

If everyone who is critical of homosexuality, for instance, is a closet homosexual then it becomes impossible to be critical of homosexuality. That's not healthy. Also soon wicked sorts learn that and exploit that, labelling whatever is their own sick behaviour homosexual (or whatever the sacred cow may be) aware there can be no challenge brought to it.

Finally, maybe its not insecurity but that the same population hasnt been compromised and adopted the sorts of conformity which most of the population finds necessary for an easy life. A lot of the supposedly most daring different thinkers and non-conformists were the same people who were overjoyed when petitions and pressure lead to the ousting from his job of an American exec because of his private opinions and the legal redefinition of marriage, in the abscence of a state sanction they relied upon a popular mob sanction and I've heard nothing but the "you have freedom of speech, there will be consequences" since.

The contradictions are pretty glaring to me there and it seems the opposite of what some gay personalities in the past would have thought, I'm thinking of Oscar Wilde here but then I wouldnt be sure if he would have considered himself a gay activist so much as someone pretty good at just being himself. The point is that the gamers havent as many reasons to be cowed. It can be juvenile and ugly but if the opposition and critical thinking isnt happening anywhere else what does that tell you?

 

[Matt3737]

As a tangential aside, yesterday a frustrated independent developer threatened to kill a prominent Valve employee and co-founder (Gabe Newell) and has today resigned his position at the company.

I feel perverse watching it all unfold, but I can't stop reading all the comments. So very strange.

Polygon reports death threat.
Kotaku reports death threat.
PCGamer reports death threat.
Gamespot reports death threat.
Gamasutra's commentary.
Kotaku reports resignation.
Company's blog post.
Developer's twitter feed.

 

[Cornerstone]

That game looks weird.

I mean, it's what I did often enough on any game that let me (some don't let you shoot civilians...wtf? That's not realistic maaan)

Now it feels weird to do it in GTA if I'm honest and there's never any subconscious vitriol coming through when I do play games and go on a killing spree.

The whole premise being a dude who has snapped is pretty risky though. I think probably irresposible at best to make it at all.

 

[muir]

That game looks weird.

I mean, it's what I did often enough on any game that let me (some don't let you shoot civilians...wtf? That's not realistic maaan)

Now it feels weird to do it in GTA if I'm honest and there's never any subconscious vitriol coming through when I do play games and go on a killing spree.

The whole premise being a dude who has snapped is pretty risky though. I think probably irresposible at best to make it at all.

You're a switched on guy....you understand the idea behind 'predictive programming' right....where the elites plant stuff in popular culture so that it then impacts the subconscious of the consumer

This is an important dimension to this thing and no ones discussing it!

When predictive programming is combined with 'serotonin uptake inhibitors' (psychoactive drugs) which a lot of people are on these days then the violent scenes being taken in by the young person impact deeply on the psyche

We are being bombarded with horror films and gorno and increasingly graphic games and pop music videos and endless apocalypse films especially zombie ones were people are hacking at each other to survive

There is some seriously dark predictive programming going on here by the black lodge

And now they are making games where you go on a killing spree? I mean for fuck sake!

A lot of people don't realise how centrally controlled the media is and that the same people control all these big corporations and industries and that the people at the top are occultists with an occult agenda

 

[muir]

The material realm is in the qabalist system called 'malkuth'. This is at the bottom of the tree of life. it corresponds to our lowest chakra and to the planet SATURN and to our base animal desires

This physical realm is the realm of the 5 senses...of matter....of sex and violence and raw physicality and basic animalistic instincts and it is the furthest away point from spirit at the top of the tree of life

This is where the black lodge controllers want us...rooted in the material world and stuck in survival, fear based, flight or fight mode which then shuts down the rational mind and prevents people thinking clearly; this stops the left and right hemispheres of the brain working together and keeps peoples reptilian brain stem activated (the 'limbic system')

people are scared about ISIS or ebola or paying the bills or whatever new story the black lodge have woven into the story line to keep people in a low dense vibration of fear

They want us locked into the saturnian current

They even tell you that is what they are doing! Here is their 'sega saturn' games console

[video]http://c0ns0lewars.webs.com/photos/Sega-Systems/Sega%2520Saturn%2520CONSOLE.jpg[/video]

How many people know that their X Box contains spy tech and that these new game consoles with cameras can spy on people? The 'X' is a cross and the cross represents the realm of matter (jesus is man crucified on the world of matter). The 'box' is a cube and the cube is a symbol of saturn. The Cross is a cube unfurled...it's all saturnian

Info on saturn: http://www.whats-your-sign.com/saturn-symbol-meaning.html

The matrix was a virtual reality simulator world but many people today are already living in a virtual gaming world in their minds; it's going to be easy to plug them in as technology advances because they are already hooked

[video=youtube;mMdtScwoRPI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMdtScwoRPI[/video]

 

[muir]

You're not playing....you're being played........by some very dark forces

[video=youtube;Wr1puxzJ-Os]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wr1puxzJ-Os[/video]

 

[sprinkles]

[MENTION=5525]latte[/MENTION]

I'm not saying that there aren't good people. I'm not even saying that there's not a lot of good people. I'm saying the zeitgeist of gaming harbors ill and if there's good people, they are in spite of it.

 

[sprinkles]

There is a lot of toxic gaming communities, just there are also a lot of toxic LGBT communities and a lot of toxic techie communities. No matter what interest you have you'll find that it's impossible to avoid assholes in that community. That said, video games are one of the worst for crude, trollish behavior. There's a great deal of misogyny, homophobia and even racism in gaming today.

However, this attitude seems to be changing (very slowly, I admit) and there's a lot more people pushing for diversity in video games. Horribly misogynistic games like GTA V are called out for their behavior and the pathetic excuses for lack of any non-cisexual characters are being attacked more and more.

A large amount of gamers and developers (or at least mainstream ones) are insecure young males and oppose these changes. They're the most outspoken ones who look at any attempt to diversify as an attack on their hobby. While I'm uncertain about the future of the industry, I believe that as this medium matures, those who decry "SJW bullshit" over every little change or who resort to death threats to get their way will become less and less relevant.

What I don't understand is why they have to defend it. You don't have to identify as a gamer, and not even that kind of gamer if you choose to. But to not recognize that there might be a problem is just plain ignorance.

It's worse than the fricking OS warrior people. Jegus fuck they are irritating! Being a Linux user does not make you so special that you have to be offended over it. That's your choice. I'm allowed to not like Windows and I'm allowed to prefer Linux but that doesn't mean I'm on your fucking side (BECAUSE I'M NOT) and it doesn't mean I need you to defend either one of them. I'm allowed to say it because it is my opinion and just let it drop. It's not a big fucking deal.

Moreover gaming is so diverse and diluted now that the term "gamer" is more meaningless than "hacker". It doesn't mean jack to identify.

It's like somebody says "Hey! I'm a gamer!" *plays Candy Crush on a mobile* and other people look and say "No, you're not. Not really." I mean what is the point? The gamer identity practically does not exist anymore. All 'gamer' says now days is that you have played some game at some point. Maybe.

 

[Tin Man]

I agree with you about the toxic element in any community or scene and I cant really talk about the gaming community specifically, or at least I would be careful about how I generalise and I cant say that I belong to any gaming community besides retro gaming.

Which kind of brings me on to my point, in some ways I'm a retro gamer because I grew up with games that are now called retro and I like the format of play, if only some of the graphics were improved and the game mechanics, but its also a cultural thing too. There's no politics in retro games. No one was debating whether or not Simon Belmont was a homosexual when Castlevania was out, no one asked serious questions about whether or not there should be female leads instead for the same reason that people liked to read hero fiction featuring male leads without wanting to feel like a jerk about it.

I dont know that there has to be a forced "diversification" of games, I dont like some of the more forced diversification of other mediums, in the UK the BBCs heavy pushing of a "queer in every show" or at least a sexual orientation storyline which is seen to validate anything other than heterosexuality, if it is heterosexuality there is some sort of accent upon it has proved alienating or tiring. I think there's nothing wrong with people asking why every game, film, TV show, song etc. has to have a heavy feature of homosexuality when they practically may never meet a homosexual in their daily lives or give the existence of homosexuality as a thing an active thought.

Part of the problem with the reaction against this which has come from gamers is that its easily dismissed as being a bunch of insecure young males and I think that's unfortunate. For one its only going to get them more stoked and the unfortunate "If people call me a bigot, expect me to be a bigot, then I'll be a bigot and fuck them" thing happens, that's the nature of insecurity and perceived rejection or rebuke.

For another they may be insecure but I think its insufficent grounds to invalid their response, sure there's maybe going to be one or two people who are covering up their own identity issues or struggles by attacking that which they secretly identify with but I think its been seriously mistaken to generalise this to an entire population in the way it has been in the past.

If everyone who is critical of homosexuality, for instance, is a closet homosexual then it becomes impossible to be critical of homosexuality. That's not healthy. Also soon wicked sorts learn that and exploit that, labelling whatever is their own sick behaviour homosexual (or whatever the sacred cow may be) aware there can be no challenge brought to it.

Finally, maybe its not insecurity but that the same population hasnt been compromised and adopted the sorts of conformity which most of the population finds necessary for an easy life. A lot of the supposedly most daring different thinkers and non-conformists were the same people who were overjoyed when petitions and pressure lead to the ousting from his job of an American exec because of his private opinions and the legal redefinition of marriage, in the abscence of a state sanction they relied upon a popular mob sanction and I've heard nothing but the "you have freedom of speech, there will be consequences" since.

The contradictions are pretty glaring to me there and it seems the opposite of what some gay personalities in the past would have thought, I'm thinking of Oscar Wilde here but then I wouldnt be sure if he would have considered himself a gay activist so much as someone pretty good at just being himself. The point is that the gamers havent as many reasons to be cowed. It can be juvenile and ugly but if the opposition and critical thinking isnt happening anywhere else what does that tell you?

Yes, I suppose that was a broad generalization. I meant to focus more on the triple A audience but as sprinkles said "gamer" is becoming a defunct term. One of the few online communities I'm active in is dedicated to old CRPGs and it's about as far away as you can get from the environment at places like gamefaq. In fact, I consider it one of the few bastions of intelligent thought on the internet.

There's a thin line between forcing political correctness onto a medium and the natural evolution where acceptance and diversity have become the norm. I would like to see a broader spectrum of protagonists in mainstream video games, but I don't want it to be that way just for the sake of it. I've played games where homo-sexual or transgender characters are forced into the game and it destroys immersion and causes you to loose interest in the story.

I don't think that this attitude is in the past. The way people responded to the who gamer gate thing or how female bloggers like Annita Sarkeesian are getting bomb threats. It's possible this attitude is just from a vocal minority and there's definitely over-reactions from people on the other side. Still, I've seen the same irrational behaviour too many times to believe there's a lot critical thinking involved.

 

[Tin Man]

What I don't understand is why they have to defend it. You don't have to identify as a gamer, and not even that kind of gamer if you choose to. But to not recognize that there might be a problem is just plain ignorance.

It's worse than the fricking OS warrior people. Jegus fuck they are irritating! Being a Linux user does not make you so special that you have to be offended over it. That's your choice. I'm allowed to not like Windows and I'm allowed to prefer Linux but that doesn't mean I'm on your fucking side (BECAUSE I'M NOT) and it doesn't mean I need you to defend either one of them. I'm allowed to say it because it is my opinion and just let it drop. It's not a big fucking deal.

Moreover gaming is so diverse and diluted now that the term "gamer" is more meaningless than "hacker". It doesn't mean jack to identify.

It's like somebody says "Hey! I'm a gamer!" *plays Candy Crush on a mobile* and other people look and say "No, you're not. Not really." I mean what is the point? The gamer identity practically does not exist anymore. All 'gamer' says now days is that you have played some game at some point. Maybe.

I installed Debian a while back and there's so much hatred for Ubuntu in that community. It was actually pretty funny.

 

[sprinkles]

I installed Debian a while back and there's so much hatred for Ubuntu in that community. It was actually pretty funny.

Yeah they act like they're Richard Stallman fighting the good fight or some shit. Software freedom is great but if I have to ruin my experience with fighting people over it then what's the point?

 

[sprinkles]

Yes, I suppose that was a broad generalization. I meant to focus more on the triple A audience but as sprinkles said "gamer" is becoming a defunct term. One of the few online communities I'm active in is dedicated to old CRPGs and it's about as far away as you can get from the environment at places like gamefaq. In fact, I consider it one of the few bastions of intelligent thought on the internet.

There's a thin line between forcing political correctness onto a medium and the natural evolution where acceptance and diversity have become the norm. I would like to see a broader spectrum of protagonists in mainstream video games, but I don't want it to be that way just for the sake of it. I've played games where homo-sexual or transgender characters are forced into the game and it destroys immersion and causes you to loose interest in the story.

I don't think that this attitude is in the past. The way people responded to the who gamer gate thing or how female bloggers like Annita Sarkeesian are getting bomb threats. It's possible this attitude is just from a vocal minority and there's definitely over-reactions from people on the other side. Still, I've seen the same irrational behaviour too many times to believe there's a lot critical thinking involved.

Some of the best communities are the old ones. I've been gaming for about 30 years and have seen a pretty constant downward trend since the advent of dialup gaming.

 

[jssanderson747]

The idea that all the gaming community are toxic is... not very accurate.

 

[sprinkles]

The idea that all the gaming community are toxic is... not very accurate.

The idea that anonymity turns people into assholes is also not very accurate but that doesn't mean it does not statistically harbor more assholery.

 

[Tin Man]

Some of the best communities are the old ones. I've been gaming for about 30 years and have seen a pretty constant downward trend since the advent of dialup gaming.

Is that a correlation or causation? Maybe you encounter more assholes playing games because more assholes have access to the games. You can't really interact with people when reading or watching a movie so you can choose how much stupidity you're exposed to. However, if you want to play an MMORPG or a MOBA you have to deal with people. Even single player games force you to interact with other players.

It's possible that there are just as many idiots involved in other mediums, but that the forced inter-connectivity makes this more noticeable in videogames.

 

[sprinkles]

Is that a correlation or causation? Maybe you encounter more assholes playing games because more assholes have access to the games. You can't really interact with people when reading or watching a movie so you can choose how much stupidity you're exposed to. However, if you want to play an MMORPG or a MOBA you have to deal with people. Even single player games force you to interact with other players.

It's possible that there are just as many idiots involved in other mediums, but that the forced inter-connectivity makes this more noticeable in videogames.

Here is what I see happening.

We get the internet. Makes it possible to encounter more assholes. Young impressionable minds log in because they have ignorant parents. They encounter the easily encounterable assholes which may or may not be a minority. They grow up thinking that this stuff is ok.

Or think of mold on a loaf of bread. Mold roots go deep and you can't always see the spores so even though it may be a minority (only part of the bread loaf is infected) it is still highly contagious.

I'm not saying that all gamers are bad. I'm saying the community is arranged in such a way that bad habits are virulent. It's like 4chan. A few bad people CAN ruin everything even when the majority is minding their business. For the sake of argument let's say they really are a vocal minority. They still do a lot of damage.

That is how I define toxicity. It's not simply the fact that it is unpleasant, but the fact that it spreads and causes other people to become toxic when they otherwise might not be.

It's like how in TF2 you see people rant about fags and noobs and retards and nobody says anything about it like it is normal. Some people might even laugh. The fact is that such behavior - no matter how much in the minority - happens so often that people simply become jaded to it and it is like they no longer see it.

 

[Tin Man]

Here is what I see happening.

We get the internet. Makes it possible to encounter more assholes. Young impressionable minds log in because they have ignorant parents. They encounter the easily encounterable assholes which may or may not be a minority. They grow up thinking that this stuff is ok.

Or think of mold on a loaf of bread. Mold roots go deep and you can't always see the spores so even though it may be a minority (only part of the bread loaf is infected) it is still highly contagious.

I'm not saying that all gamers are bad. I'm saying the community is arranged in such a way that bad habits are virulent. It's like 4chan. A few bad people CAN ruin everything even when the majority is minding their business. For the sake of argument let's say they really are a vocal minority. They still do a lot of damage.

That is how I define toxicity. It's not simply the fact that it is unpleasant, but the fact that it spreads and causes other people to become toxic when they otherwise might not be.

It's like how in TF2 you see people rant about fags and noobs and retards and nobody says anything about it like it is normal. Some people might even laugh. The fact is that such behavior - no matter how much in the minority - happens so often that people simply become jaded to it and it is like they no longer see it.

I don't disagree with you, but this is this same with many communities which have a high number of impressionable minds. I don't think that the video game community is any worse. Hell, if it wasn't for all the moderating on sites Twitter or Facebook there would be just as much random hatred there as on 4chan.

It sucks, I agree, but people become jaded to slavery and genocide so it's not surprising to see that attitude to a little bigotry

 

[sprinkles]

I don't disagree with you, but this is this same with many communities which have a high number of impressionable minds. I don't think that the video game community is any worse. Hell, if it wasn't for all the moderating on sites Twitter or Facebook there would be just as much random hatred there as on 4chan.

It sucks, I agree, but people become jaded to slavery and genocide so it's not surprising to see that attitude to a little bigotry

I never said that gaming had this exclusively. Of course it is the same in many other places and in general. And I would argue that every single piece contributes more to the whole.

You see it as "not any worse" and I see it as "yet more bad news". "Not any worse" isn't really a good place to be.

 

[Tin Man]

I never said that gaming had this exclusively. Of course it is the same in many other places and in general. And I would argue that every single piece contributes more to the whole.

You see it as "not any worse" and I see it as "yet more bad news". "Not any worse" isn't really a good place to be.

Then it's not really about video games, but about people. Yes, the community provides an atmosphere where this behavior is accepted, but the type of people who thrive in the place would find another if it weren't there.

Also the impressionable minds who think this is ok will either go on to become mature responsible adults who realize how crappy their attitude was or they were going to be assholes anyway. I think it's most likely that it'll be the former because the biggest, for lack of a better word, celebrities in the community are endorsing an attitude of open mindedness and from what I've seen their opinions do matter. I also see more and more popular sites dedicated to the medium which embrace positive change.

I think the tide is slowly changing and while there will always be a vocal minority of assholes, such behavior will be met with opposition rather than just acceptance.